(Theoretical) "Production" Division polls

[dcloudy777]

Okay, my division ramblings have led to seem to have led to much more rambling, which was the whole idea, so thanks. The concept of a "Production" type division seems to have at least some proponents, so I'd like to ask a few questions to get an idea of what the folks that might want to play in such a division would want it to be. You've seen the questions, now I'll give my answers and a brief supporting argument:

Pistol rules: I'm for USPSA-Production type rules, except allowing single action guns and no capacity limits. Basically up to 140mm mags, no comps, no optics, no add-on magwells, no freakishly large safeties/slide releases/mag releases (probably have to quantify that rule, as "freakishly large" might be open to interpretation ) I don't see the need for being very restrictive with pistol rules. In current Tactical division, you can shoot pretty much any kinda handgun you want, and I still see mostly USPSA-Production legal stuff. You see some Limited-type guns, but I don't think they represent too much of an advantage, especially without big magwells.

Rifle Sights: I voted for 1x optics and/or irons. I think the driving force behind a Production division would be to encourage shooters to shoot what they already have, and the dot-sight (for better or worse) is starting to become ubiquitous on ARs. I was selling boatloads of ARs from 2006-2009, and flattops outsold carry-handle guns enormously, probably 10 to 1. I would say about half of the rifles I sold had 1x optics on them within 6 months of purchase. There are tons of combat vets, cops, and defensive-rifle owners that have ARs with red-dot sights. I personally am super stoked that the 1x optics are starting to be allowed in tac-irons, to the point where I got rid of my Tac-optics scope and I'll shoot HM or Tac-Irons with my beloved Eotechs from now on.

Rifle Mags: I went with 30 rounders. I know that 40 round AR mags are starting to be pretty plentiful and aren't expensive anymore, but I think division should be about what you already have and use, not what you can get cheap. Personally I don't like the 40+ rounders in any division except Open; it's practically impossible now for a stage designer to force a rifle reload, and I think that should be part of the game.

Shotgun Action: My choice is pump guns. As I've mentioned elsewhere, I would be willing to bet that in shotguns bought for defensive use, pumps outnumber autos by a fair margin. Pump shotguns are inexpensive, and are everywhere. They also really can't be competitive with autoloaders in multigun. I think the pumps deserve a good place to play just because there are so many of them in use.

Shotgun Capacity: I say 7+1. This was a tough one for me, as I hate to put them down a round to the Tac Optics guns. I do believe it's best though. 8+1 makes it tough on the 18" guns, which are very popular. I don't see the need to limit it to 4+1, and practically any defensive shotgun either already holds more (most do) or can easily and cheaply be made to.

Well that's what I think (like anyone cares), and I'd like to get some feedback on what some of the "production" multigun fans think as well. If you don't want a production class, that's cool, you don't have to vote.

DanO

[Alaskapopo]

Would combine Single stack in with Production for the handgun with the 10 round limit and only if you are shooting minor. If shooting major in a single stack 8+1.

For the shotgun I think 7+1 is a good idea.

For the rifle I voted irons only and 30 round mags.

Pat

[Dave Campbell]

I have tried to convince other members in the private range I shoot at, to try 3 gun .

They all have objections, most of them are to do with equipment.

If you had a class that was Pistol Production ( 10 round ) friendly , single stack 10 would do,

did not require another shotgun , almost everyone has a pump with 4 + 1, or Auto and either Iron or 1X RDS and 20 Round Mags on the Rifle (AR-10/15).

If it met these requirements , I could convince at least some of them to try it .

Then they would be Hooked , this an addiction, I know, But I won't tell them until they come out once.

Dave

[dcloudy777]

Fire it up, Dave! Make the rules whatever you need to make them to get folks out shooting. I'm pretty sure this "production" division, if it happens, is going to happen from the club level. The folks that run the big matches aren't going to make big changes first, and they shouldn't. These people have put together world-class matches that everybody wants to shoot, by themselves, with no organization for support; they shouldn't monkey around with their matches because they work. Where production class should come from, and IMO where it is needed the most, is at the local matches trying to bring in shooters, or at the pistol clubs trying to start multigun. The big match guys are smart... if Production classes start to become popular, you'll start to see them in the major matches. And even if you don't, what's the harm? Local matches don't have to be run exactly like major matches (hell even the majors aren't all run the same way). Many shooters can't or don't want to go shoot big matches anyway. Think about your USPSA/IDPA club. I'll bet you can think of several shooters who come to all the local matches, but don't really even think of going to the Sectionals, let alone Area or National matches. I'll bet there are potential multigun shooters that are in the same boat. A division like what we're discussing here would really cater to just such a "casual multigunner", and allow him/her to get into the sport with minimal outlay for competitive equipment.

DanO

[fiddler]

I'd like to use better than 1X optics. I have trouble seeing small targets at distance. How about 1-4X?

[RiggerJJ]

I'd like to use better than 1X optics. I have trouble seeing small targets at distance. How about 1-4X?

...and so it begins, before it begins...

jj

[Stlhead]

I am against the addition of any more divisions unless we get rid of some of the ones we have now. Why split the pie up any more that we already have? I find it hard to believe that many more people will show up to shoot if we add another division. Equipment does not seem to be a big reason I hear from people who I talk to at the range who don't show up for local 3-gun matches. More often than not they are just afraid to try something new, or are afraid that they will look foolish. I think we need to make our sport more warm and fuzzy if we are to continue to grow the ranks. But I am not sure that growing the ranks is what we should be doing, all of the good matches seem to have no problem filling up now. Unless we get more matches to shoot there is no place for these new shooters to play anyway unless they are content with just shooting the smaller local matches.

[dcloudy777]

I agree with the "too many divisions" argument. I see a production division as a replacement for Tac Irons, or, ideally (see "Looney Idea of the Week" thread), 3 divisions with the option to shoot HM (with a scoring advantage) in any of the three. The trend toward allowing 1X optics in Irons seems to be growing, and I see turning into "Production" as a logical progression. I don't think the current (well, current until a few months ago) Tac Irons was "different enough" to merit its own division. Two-thirds of a tac-irons shooter's guns were identical to Tac Optics guns. My 3 division system makes each division's equipment much more distinctive, and I think it would result in shooters being more spread out among the divisions, instead of the 90% tac-optics and 10% everything else distribution we seem to have now.

DanO

[MarkCO]

I'd like to use better than 1X optics. I have trouble seeing small targets at distance. How about 1-4X?

The point is what is best for the MOST shooters, not just you. Shoot one of the divisions that allows optics if your eyesight won't let you work with irons or red-dots.

[MarkCO]

I am against the addition of any more divisions unless we get rid of some of the ones we have now. Why split the pie up any more that we already have? I find it hard to believe that many more people will show up to shoot if we add another division. Equipment does not seem to be a big reason I hear from people who I talk to at the range who don't show up for local 3-gun matches. More often than not they are just afraid to try something new, or are afraid that they will look foolish. I think we need to make our sport more warm and fuzzy if we are to continue to grow the ranks. But I am not sure that growing the ranks is what we should be doing, all of the good matches seem to have no problem filling up now. Unless we get more matches to shoot there is no place for these new shooters to play anyway unless they are content with just shooting the smaller local matches.

Yes, and no. 3Gun Nation came into the mix as 3 gun was already growing. It might take a few years for all this chaos to sort out and we probably should not tinker with anything in 2011. Personally I like the idea of Production (1x or irons and magazine limits on all three guns like in this thread), Modified (current Tac Scope), and Open with Heavy as a category. Does that leave a few people out in the cold...not really, just a little adaptation.

[bunsen27]

Thanks for putting this out there! I was having a similar thought based on the discussion from previous threads, other discussion with members here, and shooters at the range. As a first year shooter in USPSA Production and 3gun I personally think this is an idea with a lot of potential to bring new shooters into the sport. As you mentioned this should be started at the local club level to see if it gains a following. I view a Production division as a gateway division into 3gun analogous to it's role in USPSA. The fundemental reasoning would be to keep the eqipment cost to a minimum and utilize common equipment most people would already own or can easily afford. If at all possible an arms/equipment race type scenario should be avoided. Keep everything basic and near stock configurations. The mythical Tactical Redneck or guy who wants to get some hands on time with his home defense guns come to mind as potential candidates for this division.

USPSA has done a pretty good job refining what can and cannot play in the Production pistol division, so I see no reason to try and reinvent the wheel there. Although I would advocate allowing shooters to top off their magazines, and possibly the use of 140mm extensions. Limiting the mags to only 10 rounds just doesn't work for 3gun. In USPSA CoF design I believe is limited to a maximum of four paper targets ( 8 steel) per array, so a 10round mag works there. CoF for 3gun does not have that limitation (non-USPSA matches), so 10 round mags wouldn't work well. As for the SS if you want to play with it in this division sure you can use 10 round mags, but don't expect anybody else not shooting a SS to download their mags to 10 rounds.

For the shotgun I agree that the pump needs a place to play other than just HM. I'd wager a guess that more folks own a pump for home defense and hunting than an autoloader, and they are definitely lower cost than most autoloaders that are used in TO/TI (the new Mossberg 930 may change that though). 7+1 or 8+1 would be practical since many home defense guns already have extended tubes, and a tube can be added to a hunting shotgun for ~$50.

The rifle is where it can get a little tricky. At a National level match most TI shooters would not be at a disadvantage against a 1x optic shooter. At your local level match the iron shooters most likely would "feel" that they were at a disadvantage. My local matches just started up a TN (Tactical Non-magnified) division for 1x optics. They also still run a TI division. Personally I have no issues running irons against a 1x, but that's just me. 30 round mags to me is a straight forward "yes", but do allow coupled mags. The next debate is over compensated versus non-compensated barrels. I believe your average AR15 owner is sporting a non-comped barrel so I'd lean that direction.

Essentialy this Production Division could be an excellent entry point into the sport of 3gun for a lot of people. It would provide a low economic barrier of entry, which I feel is the biggest hurdle most people face when looking into the sport. Followed closely by the fear of their ego taking a little bit of a whooping.

I don't advocate messing with any of the existing Divisions as they presently are configured. For those concerned about "slicing the pie" too many ways I see your concern, but recall that one of the concepts of this division is to attract new shooters to the sport, not to draw existing shooter out of their current divisions. Although I'm sure some might give it a try (I most certainly would) the influx of new shooters should offset that attrition. This is definitely going to be more of a "bottom up" rather than a "top down" type of thing. I've already seen some of this with my local matches going to the TN concept. The Oct match had 63 shooters: 11 in TI and 51 in TO (1 guy shot Open). The Nov match had 48 shooters: 30 TO, 4 TI, and 13 TN. Of the 13 in TN only 4 came from TO and zero came from TI of previous matches. I hate to quote cheesey movies, but "if you build it...." you might just be surprised who all shows up to shoot that hasn't before due to word of mouth, 3gun Nation, not having to take a 2nd mortgage for equipment, ect.

[Jim Norman]

Production Pistol, production rules

Rifles, Irons or 1X optic, 10 rounds

Pump or Auto, 4+1

[dcloudy777]

Okay Jim, I gotta ask... 10rd rifle mags? Who are you trying to include with that number? Or do you sell rifle magazine pouches on the side?

DanO

[Jim Norman]

No, but 10 rounds is in keeping with production. 30 rounds is more like Open.

As an aside to this, I would allow that a course of fire in rifle could stipulate a mandatory reload after engaging the first target and prior to engaging the last target. Do that and I don't care about capacity in rifle. Although if you are really trying to differentiate a division, then this is a differentiation that sets it apart from Limited for real.

[gose]

I have tried to convince other members in the private range I shoot at, to try 3 gun .

They all have objections, most of them are to do with equipment.

So have I and unfortunately I do agree with what has been said earlier, it's just an excuse. Creating a new division is unlikely to draw many of those out to the matches, they'll just come up with a new excuse.

What will draw new shooters is cheap weekend classes and small local low-key matches.

USPSA already allows 1x RDS in Tac Irons and some of the other major matches seem to be following their lead, so there is already a place to play with those.

So no, I dont think we need more divisions.

[J.Schmitt]

No!!!!!!!!!!!! to any redrawing of a production division. Already have to deal with the 1x issue and who knows where that will lead when someone designs some wicked new product.

10 rnd pistol mags, not enough room on the belt for 5 of those plus a rifle mag or 2 and 20 plus rnds of shotshells.

If a match wants to set their rules at a 30 rnd rifle mag limit I am OK with that. I like to reload my rifle.

I like the current setup of most matches that start your shotgun at say 9 and reload from there with however many you got.

Jay

[J.Schmitt]

Essentialy this Production Division could be an excellent entry point into the sport of 3gun for a lot of people. It would provide a low economic barrier of entry, which I feel is the biggest hurdle most people face when looking into the sport. Followed closely by the fear of their ego taking a little bit of a whooping.

The current tac iron / tac optic is already an economical starting point. Compete with what you have, The ego of a new shooter is going to get squashed either way if thats what they set themselves up for. I shot my very first match at the DPMS tri-gun and came back for more. BECAUSE ITS FUN. I know cops that I work with that could not take the ego hit from a USPSA match when they got beat by an "old fat guy with suspenders". They never came back. You can't please everyone. Make it fun and shooters will show up.

Beating a dead dead dead horse but, Attract TI shooters with long range targets that can be SEEN.

Jay

[bunsen27]

Essentialy this Production Division could be an excellent entry point into the sport of 3gun for a lot of people. It would provide a low economic barrier of entry, which I feel is the biggest hurdle most people face when looking into the sport. Followed closely by the fear of their ego taking a little bit of a whooping.

The current tac iron / tac optic is already an economical starting point. Compete with what you have, The ego of a new shooter is going to get squashed either way if thats what they set themselves up for. I shot my very first match at the DPMS tri-gun and came back for more. BECAUSE ITS FUN. I know cops that I work with that could not take the ego hit from a USPSA match when they got beat by an "old fat guy with suspenders". They never came back. You can't please everyone. Make it fun and shooters will show up.

Beating a dead dead dead horse but, Attract TI shooters with long range targets that can be SEEN.

Jay

I do agree that many new shooters cannot take the ego hit of being bested by the rotund older gentleman in suspenders. It is also true if you make it fun then shooters will show. However make it more affordable and more shooters will show up more often.

I respectfully disagree that TO & TI are economical enough for new shooters. As for "compete with what you have" did you start out with a JP-CTR02 and Benelli M1? If not did you feel you needed to "upgrade" to those platforms to "compete" rather than just participate? I do not disagree that they are both EXCELLENT tools to play this game with, but they certainly are not the cheapest.

As for rifle steel colors, backers, ect that debate is ongoing here in case you hadn't seen it yet.

[MarkCO]

I do agree that many new shooters cannot take the ego hit of being bested by the rotund older gentleman in suspenders. It is also true if you make it fun then shooters will show. However make it more affordable and more shooters will show up more often.

I respectfully disagree that TO & TI are economical enough for new shooters. As for "compete with what you have" did you start out with a JP-CTR02 and Benelli M1? If not did you feel you needed to "upgrade" to those platforms to "compete" rather than just participate? I do not disagree that they are both EXCELLENT tools to play this game with, but they certainly are not the cheapest.

Agreed. TO/TI is probably a $5k minimum outlay to get all of the guns, gear and ammo for the 1st match, if you don't practice at all. Compare that to $2K for to get an 870 pump, a M4 knock-off and a wonder 9 in your favorite flavor with gear and ammo, if you have nothing.

I was woefully unprepared for my first 3 gun match with my 870, G22 and a Model1 sales Carbine, but coming from IPSC and already having those three guns for various other reasons, I spent a total of $30 for a shotgun bandolier and a 2 nylon rifle pouches and went and had fun. I am pretty sure I added or changed something significant every year since.

[StealthyBlagga]

Creating a "production" division will not meaningfully increase participation. The current Tactical Limited division rules already let any newbie be competitive for the lowest feasible cost. The cost is still higher than with one-gun matches because you need 3x as much equipment; whereas anyone can get into USPSA Production Pistol for $500, you are looking at a minimum of three times that for 3-gun.

As so many folks already have an AR15 rifle and a Glock, equipment availability is not the main problem - instead, its the shotgun that many are not that into. Wider availability of rifle/pistol matches would be one way to make matches more accessible; when we ran a "shotgun optional" match a few weeks ago we got a significant bump in participation, with several newbies vowing to go out and buy a shotgun so they can shoot every month.

The other issue is just the paucity of local 3-gun matches generally. I live in one of the most active practical shooting regions in the country and can still only shoot 3-gun twice a month. If we want to grow the sport, we need to run more local matches.

[J.Schmitt]

I do agree that many new shooters cannot take the ego hit of being bested by the rotund older gentleman in suspenders. It is also true if you make it fun then shooters will show. However make it more affordable and more shooters will show up more often.

I respectfully disagree that TO & TI are economical enough for new shooters. As for "compete with what you have" did you start out with a JP-CTR02 and Benelli M1? If not did you feel you needed to "upgrade" to those platforms to "compete" rather than just participate? I do not disagree that they are both EXCELLENT tools to play this game with, but they certainly are not the cheapest.

As for rifle steel colors, backers, ect that debate is ongoing here in case you hadn't seen it yet.

Yeah, I just got the JP(friggen awesome)3 months ago to step in and take over for a 10 year old Rock River(great shooting rifle). I started out with a Nova which was OK because I had to learn how to run a course and reload first. I look at my local matches and I see 2 groups of people. Those who can obviously afford anything and those who have less expensive gear. I think we all probably know shooters who started out with lower end gear and learned how to play the game. They upgraded as they saw fit or could afford over a period of a few years. They excelled with what they had.

Shooters who need to go on the inexpensive can make it work with some great products that are available.

Ok, going to bed now. Handgun match in the morning and pheasants in the afternoon.

Jay

[Red Neck Tactical]

"Need" to be competitive?? One of our top instructors this last year went back to his good old gear(used 93-99)and kicked everyones a$$ in his division! 3 times in a row. Gear was a Glock 24....STOCK!!! A Benelli M121-M1, and his Bushmaster A2 w/ extended sight by Yankee Hill. Nothing fancy here! Total cost of gear was less than $1500.00 for ALL of it! To include mag holders and shotshell holders! The idea that we need a "production" division to "keep costs down" is non-sense! We all have a place to play, we just have to have a bit of grit to do it! Simple is better! it is the Red - Neck way!!!

[bunsen27]

"Need" to be competitive?? One of our top instructors this last year went back to his good old gear(used 93-99)and kicked everyones a$$ in his division! 3 times in a row. Gear was a Glock 24....STOCK!!! A Benelli M121-M1, and his Bushmaster A2 w/ extended sight by Yankee Hill. Nothing fancy here! Total cost of gear was less than $1500.00 for ALL of it! To include mag holders and shotshell holders! The idea that we need a "production" division to "keep costs down" is non-sense!

Respectfully, one of your top instructors SHOULD be able to win with just about ANY configuration of equipment. Their exist the fallacy that equipment makes great shooters what they are; at that skill level it ultimately boils down to the squirrel pulling the trigger not the equipment they are using. Now if he had done it using a pump, that would have actually been something impressive to talk about. That would have been an actual equipment handicap.

I'd also double check your math. It's appears a bit off: Glock = $550-350, Bushmaster A2 = $1000-800, Benelli = $$$-$$$$ That equipment might have cost $1500 back in the '90s, but not today.

We all have a place to play, we just have to have a bit of grit to do it! Simple is better! it is the Red - Neck way!!!

Try not to take this personally. You're not the first person I've seen post or spoken with that has displayed the attitude of "this is the way it is, nutt up or don't play our game". I'm not an advocate for the dumbing down or everyone gets a trophy mentality, so little Johnny or Suzy doesn't get their feeling hurt. If this sport truly wants to see some growth and participation levels, on par with the single gun sports, it needs to do a better job of being new shooter friendly and more economically feasible for the average person. Which is what this theoretical discussion of a Production division is about. Thanks for being part of that.

[StealthyBlagga]

For many years I shot 3-gun matches at one of the most competitive ranges in the nation with the following equipment, and consistently placed at/near the top:

A used Remington 11-87, sawn off barrel, Choate mag extension, EZ Loader (say $450)

A Model 1 Sales kit-built AR15, 20" barrel, FF tube, A2 irons (say $600 for a new home-build)

A Glock 9mm (say $500)

A tad over $1500, plus say another $100 for magazines. This does not NEED to be a rich mans sport. Sorry - I don't see how a new "Production Division" is going to do anything to meaningfully reduce the cost of entry.

By the way, I am still running the same crappy 11-87, but I switched to an M&P9 Pro and a new home-built rifle with an optic. I probably don;t place any higher than I used to, but I love my toys .

[slowsure]

dcloudy777,

I know a couple of board members of a club very close to you.

Nothing like a "real world" test. What do you say?