caspian guy Posted November 7, 2010 Share Posted November 7, 2010 Is it legal to add additional parts to the trigger group of a production gun? I read the section in the appendix on permitted internal modifications. It appears that based on the current verbiage of this section that replacing existing parts with aftermarket parts or modifying existing parts ok. I wasn't sure if that covered adding new parts. Specifically I am asking about the apex tactical ram. Based on what little information I could find (also a nice youtube video) it appears that it add a new pin and spring to the trigger group to give it a more positive reset. Since I don't want to hijack Apex's product announcement with a discussion I decided to start a new topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted November 7, 2010 Share Posted November 7, 2010 Look carefully at the opening paragraph in D4.21 -- can you identify language anywhere that supports adding the part? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caspian guy Posted November 7, 2010 Author Share Posted November 7, 2010 (edited) Ok, I can see that... I guess I was looking at the current wording in D4 21.5 Internal modification. INTERNAL parts: This clause is NOW interpreted to mean that a broad range of INTERNAL parts may be modified or replaced – either with OEM or aftermarket parts. However since that section is titled Exchange of minor INTERNAL components... you can't exchange what wasn't there... So unless I misunderstand what the RAM consists of I can't use it in production. Thanks Edited November 7, 2010 by caspian guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted November 8, 2010 Share Posted November 8, 2010 That's kind of the concern for all of us -- the emphasis for proving legality is now on the shooter, if challenged.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted November 8, 2010 Share Posted November 8, 2010 I wouldn't risk using it unless it gives an extreme advantage in the Open division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted November 8, 2010 Share Posted November 8, 2010 Simple solution is to ask DNROI. Just send John an email with a link to the website and as much info on it as you can come up with. He'll get you an answer that will have more weight than anything we say here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
caspian guy Posted November 8, 2010 Author Share Posted November 8, 2010 (edited) Chuck, That's what I'll probably end up doing. (I usually check here first to make sure I didn't just miss something before I bug John). Edited November 8, 2010 by caspian guy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted November 9, 2010 Share Posted November 9, 2010 Simple solution is to ask DNROI. Just send John an email with a link to the website and as much info on it as you can come up with. He'll get you an answer that will have more weight than anything we say here. As long as it leads to an interpretation, it'll carry more weight. Absent that, it'll be up to individual RMs to make a decision..... I'd prefer the interpretation for clarity's sake..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jar Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 Did anyone ever ask DNROI about this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EkuJustice Posted January 17, 2011 Share Posted January 17, 2011 How would it be any different than the over travel stop in a glock. Last I checked, glocks didnt come with that added screw to reduce overtravel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fiddler Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 Does anyone know the outcome of this discussion? Is the Apex RAM legal for Production? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 I asked NROI months ago, never received an answer. I passed the same question to my Area director, no answer yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
staudacher Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 However since that section is titled Exchange of minor INTERNAL components... you can't exchange what wasn't there... Technically it does replace an existing part. It replaces that silly plug that normally fills that hole in the frame when you have a M&P not equipped with a mag disconnect or internal lock. Now the question is can you replace a minor internal part that serves no real purpose with one that does? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markn Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 Did any one get a definitive answer on this last question? Is the Apex RAM legal for production? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 Nope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markn Posted May 6, 2011 Share Posted May 6, 2011 Ok, I emailed Apex directly and ask them if the RAM was legal for USPSA Production. Here is the response I received: Hello Mark, Yes, according to John Amidon; the RAM is USPSA Production legal. Regards, Lisa Just wanted to pass this along for those of you waiting on an answer. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted May 6, 2011 Share Posted May 6, 2011 You just might want to get a ruling on that. It is up to the shooter to prove legality. Just sayin... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Gaines Posted May 6, 2011 Share Posted May 6, 2011 why would it be illegal? its an internal modification,not seen from the outside, and a trigger enhancement part. last I heard you were allowed to do things internally for accuraccy purposes. How can it be different than putting a new match grade barrel in your gun, that can be seen by everyone? My oppinion if it is safe, its ok! by I am not John Amidon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted May 6, 2011 Share Posted May 6, 2011 Anybody got a link to the part? Video? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ima45dv8 Posted May 6, 2011 Share Posted May 6, 2011 Anybody got a link to the part? Video? https://apextactical.com/store/product-info.php?pid44.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adively Posted May 6, 2011 Share Posted May 6, 2011 (edited) Anybody got a link to the part? Video? Flex here you go: Apex Catalog ETA: Drat - ima45dv8 beat me to it. Edited May 6, 2011 by adively Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vlad Posted May 6, 2011 Share Posted May 6, 2011 You just might want to get a ruling on that. It is up to the shooter to prove legality. Just sayin... We've been trying, no answer from Amidon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jay870 Posted May 6, 2011 Share Posted May 6, 2011 why would it be illegal? its an internal modification,not seen from the outside, and a trigger enhancement part. last I heard you were allowed to do things internally for accuraccy purposes. How can it be different than putting a new match grade barrel in your gun, that can be seen by everyone? My oppinion if it is safe, its ok! by I am not John Amidon. The difference is that a new barrel is a replacement part. The RAM is not a replacement it is an addition, and therefor not covered explicitly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted May 6, 2011 Share Posted May 6, 2011 Thanks for the links. I find that similar to any number of internal mods that are common in guns in use in our sport. Including the mentioned over-travel stops in guns like the Glock....or, adding a spring to remove the mag disconnect from the M&P... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
staudacher Posted May 7, 2011 Share Posted May 7, 2011 (edited) why would it be illegal? its an internal modification,not seen from the outside, and a trigger enhancement part. last I heard you were allowed to do things internally for accuraccy purposes. How can it be different than putting a new match grade barrel in your gun, that can be seen by everyone? My oppinion if it is safe, its ok! by I am not John Amidon. The difference is that a new barrel is a replacement part. The RAM is not a replacement it is an addition, and therefor not covered explicitly. It does replace a part. Edited May 7, 2011 by staudacher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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