15 round magazines in Production

[badchad]

I just pulled up the totals for all of the competitors who competed in Area or Sectional matches this year -- my criteria were the word Area or Section/Sectional match in the title, I also looked up the totals for the 2010 Nationals and the 2009 Area 2 match and listed them for comparison. I ignored state matches...

Sounds to me like you were doing some cherry picking. Why ignore state Matches? I just ran every USPSA pistol match on the page Bart linked, ommmiting only Nationals and the Memphis Charity Challenge (cause it was Production only).

Match Limited Open Production

2009 AR Section Handgun Championship 29 37 15

2009 Area 2 Desert Classic 108 138 59

2009 Area 3 Championship 77 74 48

2009 Area 7 Championship 58 89 52

2009 Area 8 Championship 93 81 64

2009 Florida State Championship 54 42 40

2009 Gator Classic 68 50 47

2009 Georgia State Championship 43 41 27

2009 Golden Bullet Championship 42 62 22

2009 High Dessert Classic 62 50 26

2009 Idaho Sectional 22 13 9

2009 Illinois Sectionals 62 36 54

2009 Indiana Sectionals 59 42 68

2009 NC Sectionals 51 24 30

2009 Ohio State Championship 48 37 36

2009 South Carolina Sectionals 74 47 38

2009 TN Sectional Match 38 40 21

2009 Area 1 Championship 103 82 64

2009 VA MD Sectionals 80 42 61

2009 Wisconson Sectional 24 17 25

AL State Championships 47 33 19

Area 5 73 77 66

Area 6 128 81 56

Area 4 84 84 15

Mississippi Classic 67 44 44

TX Double Tap Championship 142 104 66

Totals 1736 1467 1072

Percents 40.61% 34.32% 25.08%

Overall the above only reaffirms what I said. FWIW I tried to format my numbers all nice, but it didn't work on preview.

Edited November 6, 2010 by badchad

[badchad]

I think this thread has ran its course. whos up for locking it up?

Not me, I think Bart and I are going to get somewhere. But my girlfriends getting mad at me so I'll have to finish my comments later.

[John Tuley]

There's this other game I've heard of. It's called "soccer," and maybe you've heard of it. too. Most new players come to the sport with equipment including four working limbs, but the rules say that it doesn't matter how many you've got, you can still only use the bottom ones. Lots of people (including some pros, if what I saw of the last World Cup is any indication) wish they could use their extra limbs, but the rules haven't changed to allow this. Why? Then it wouldn't be soccer anymore, it'd be some other game.

USPSA is a game. Games have rules. Sometimes the rules are artificial; if they were obvious and natural we wouldn't have to write them down, 'cause everyone would follow them naturally.

To make another analogy: if you don't like 5 card draw, go sit at the Hold 'Em table. Don't go telling the 5-card guys their rules are stupid as you pass their game, just politely enjoy yourself with the other rules.

-- John.

Edited November 6, 2010 by John Tuley

[smokshwn]

I think this thread has ran its course. whos up for locking it up?

Not me, I think Bart and I are going to get somewhere. But my girlfriends getting mad at me so I'll have to finish my comments later.

She ain't the only one

[RIIID]

Chad,

Why aren't you wanting to change L-10 to L-15 or having Limited changed to 170mm length mags? You are just stuck in your narrow view of what you want, not the entire sport of practical shooting.

Rich

[glefos]

Chad,

Why aren't you wanting to change L-10 to L-15 or having Limited changed to 170mm length mags? You are just stuck in your narrow view of what you want, not the entire sport of practical shooting.

Rich

Because this is the Production thread. We'll disagree for pages on that thread too.

[joseywales]

Production is growing in Area 4 - more so than the other divisions, maybe sometimes at the expense of other divisions. Leave it alone.

(edited for corrections to Gator Classic)

Edited November 6, 2010 by joseywales

[d_striker]

Some of those percentages don't add up to 100. I only added some from the gator classic in my head as they didn't look right.

Edited November 7, 2010 by Flexmoney
Removed large quote. (data table from previous post)

[de03x7]

I have only been shooting USPSA for a couple months now. I shoot a 9mm XDM and like having 19 rounds on tap. My plan is to shoot limited minor until I learn the game and then switch to production where I may be competitive. I only have one club to shoot with so I get 2 days per month to shoot a match. My wife also shoots an XDM and we go shoot the match and when the scores come out we compare them to each other because at this point we are our competition not everyone else. My best stage to date has been CM99-35 XMAS TREE. It was 6 shots thru 3 ports with a reload between each port. I placed 5th overall with 2 misses. Had those 2 been B hits I would have been 2nd and with A hits I would have won the stage. It didn't matter what division I was shooting in on that stage because everyone was even with 6 shots then a reload. Shooting major would have helped some but I was happy to place as high as I did. If I were to recommend any change it would be to make limited minor it's own division so I as a new shooter didn't give up so many points to the major shooters on B. C.and D hits.

[joseywales]

Production is growing in Area 4 - more so than the other divisions, maybe sometimes at the expense of other divisions. Leave it alone.

Some of those percentages don't add up to 100. I only added some from the gator classic in my head as they didn't look right.

Corrected.

[badchad]

The level playing field is determined by the rules, not what people shoot. If someone shows up now with a 12rd (mag) gun, chances are, they're only giving up some sight radius, if anything, to the more experienced folks who have dedicated guns for the sport. If you change the rules to 15rds, they're short 20% on ammo. The rules have been stacked against them. Leave it at 10, and they aren't at a disadvantage. Now, don't go saying a couple of rounds isn't that big a deal, because it obviously is to you, or you wouldn't want more in the gun!

A couple rounds isn’t a big deal if you are one of those guys “shooting for fun” or a “martial artist,” but it would be a big deal to those “competitive” types who are in it to win it. So the guys who want to upgrade with the rule change would be guys like me, AND YOU, who have already upgraded to shoot full size 9mm pistols.

“I'm not going to go work up a list of guns...but they are out there.

You claim there are plenty of these guns. I’m calling you out. But if you can’t do it I understand…

A G21 immediately comes to mind. With light loads and a good shooter, it would be good enough to win any match in the world. I'm not aware of any 15rd mags for it, and I doubt one would fit the box if it were made.

1) Arredondo makes a mag extension that would bring the 13 round G21 to 17 rounds. No it wouldn’t fit the box, but I’m sure it could be allowed in just like Single Stack mags are allowed in Limited even if over 140 mm.

2) I don’t know if anyone could shoot a G21 at the highest level, considering nobody I know of ever has, is pretty telling. I don’t know, the slides pretty heavy, not sure how reliable the gun would be shooting .45 minor, and pretty quickly the money you spent on bullet components in practice and matches would buy you a brand new G34 that can win in reality in addition to theory.

3) If you think a G21 is such a good Production gun in theory how come everyone, AND YOU, recommend it be shot in L10? http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=113858&st=0&p=1291829&hl="glock%2021"&fromsearch=1entry1291829 Not one person, NOT EVEN YOU” suggested the guy shoot in Production.

It's not just compact pistols, and while some folks will decide to buy another gun, they shouldn't be FORCED to because of a rules change to satisfy a minority of current shooters.

Who said anything about “FORCED”? Guys who shoot Glocks in Limited with extension generally only get 19 rounds, are not “FORCED” to buy S_I just because a Rescomp mag can hold 22 rounds. 15 rounds would be a maximum requirement, not a minimum. So can we put this part behind us?

Primary is an M&P Pro, although I'm considering an SP-01 Shadow from Angus.

It is interesting to me that your actions and intentions match, exactly, my observations and main thesis. Any reason why YOU are not considering a switch to a G21 or a Sig 229? They cost a whole lot less than a custom Shadow?

No, I wouldn't be hurt by a change to 15, but that's not what this is about. It's what's the best set of rules for the MOST people.

But that’s exactly what this is about. NOBODY would HAVE TO change a thing, and very very few would even feel compelled to. MOST people could then shoot their Production guns a little more as Gaston Glock envisioned as opposed to Sarah Brady. But on the other hand, as Voltaire put it: “It’s difficult to free fools from chains they revere.”

[badchad]

She ain't the only one

Very clever come back smokshwn.

I've been meaning to ask; what kind of gun do you shoot as your primary Production pistol?

[Cy Soto]

But on the other hand, as Voltaire put it: “It’s difficult to free fools from chains they revere.”

This is a great statement and one that really summarizes the attitudes of many (if not all) the naysayers. People don't appreciate the idea of someone challenging the status quo.

[smokshwn]

She ain't the only one

Very clever come back smokshwn.

I've been meaning to ask; what kind of gun do you shoot as your primary Production pistol?

A Glock 21

IF we meet up at a match and I beat you while shooting it will you give up on the theory its not a competitive platform ?

Edited November 7, 2010 by smokshwn

[beltjones]

I don't think the point is that any gun a new shooter brings is competitive in Production (P229, G21, etc.). The point is that almost any gun a new shooter brings will be able to hold at least 10 rounds, but some that are brought won't hold 15.

Still, this is a minor, minor point.

The point of Production isn't that any gun that anyone shows up with is good enough to win. The point is that it is a very different type of contest from other USPSA divisions. There is no emphasis on being on the leading edge of the equipment race (ie, the G34 I buy today will be plenty competitive for years to come). Accuracy is more important. Reloads have to be planned for virtually every array. And so on. Going to 15 rounds would simply change the way a few reloads are planned and executed, and it would mean that my belt would be lighter by one magazine and pouch. It has certainly not been demonstrated that going to 15 rounds would bring (or keep) more new shooters, not with any real data anyway. However, there has been data posted showing the impressive growth of the Production division under the current rules. While that doesn't settle the argument, it does indicate that we're on the right path.

The only real argument for going to 15 rounds that I see is that IPSC does it. However, anyone who says that "because IPSC does it" is a good reason to make the change better also be ready to dump their G34 and buy a CZ SP-01. And if we're weighing the costs of either alternative, I think that investing in a couple of pouches and maybe a mag or two is going to be far cheaper than hundreds of USPSA shooters who have to buy a totally new gun.

[d_striker]

After following this thread and reading the same arguments over and over, sometimes contradicting each other, the only real reason to stay at 10 is to accommodate ban states.

Is this enough reason to stay at 10? I don't know.

Edited November 7, 2010 by d_striker

[G-ManBart]

A couple rounds isn’t a big deal if you are one of those guys “shooting for fun” or a “martial artist,” but it would be a big deal to those “competitive” types who are in it to win it. So the guys who want to upgrade with the rule change would be guys like me, AND YOU, who have already upgraded to shoot full size 9mm pistols.

You're assuming other people's responses, based upon your own perspective. You can't say that a few rounds isn't a big deal to people shooting for fun, or anybody else. I shoot at a local club that only holds off season (Winter) matches (MI19). It's primarily intended for people to get a feel for USPSA. Production is always the biggest turnout, and they seem very happy about it. Nobody has complained that they can't load their mags fully...and almost none of them opt to shoot Limited Minor, with full mags.

This isn't about current shooters who may, or may not, have to "upgrade" to keep competitive should the rule change.

You claim there are plenty of these guns. I’m calling you out. But if you can’t do it I understand…

I could spend a bunch of time, and come up with a list, but I'm not going to bother. I don't even have to go look...I've already mentioned a Beretta 96 (and no, new shooters aren't going to show up with aftermarket 15rd mags for them, so forget that argument), H&K USP in .40 has a 13rd mag. Sig 226 in .40 has a 12rd mag. I've already mentioned the G23, and people who own them, have G23 mags, not G22 mags, so that doesn't fly either. There, some of the most popular guns being sold today, and they'd all be at a disadvantage if they show up in the hands of a prospective USPSA shooter. "Hey, I'd like to try this. Oh, everybody else is going to have 2-3 more rounds in the mag? How can I compete with that?"....that is what will happen to your newbies. Just tell them to shoot L-10? "Gee, I know I'll have the same number of rounds as those guys, but they're shooting $3K raceguns. How can I compete with that?"...again, that's what will happen to your newbies.

1) Arredondo makes a mag extension that would bring the 13 round G21 to 17 rounds. No it wouldn’t fit the box, but I’m sure it could be allowed in just like Single Stack mags are allowed in Limited even if over 140 mm.

2) I don’t know if anyone could shoot a G21 at the highest level, considering nobody I know of ever has, is pretty telling. I don’t know, the slides pretty heavy, not sure how reliable the gun would be shooting .45 minor, and pretty quickly the money you spent on bullet components in practice and matches would buy you a brand new G34 that can win in reality in addition to theory.

3) If you think a G21 is such a good Production gun in theory how come everyone, AND YOU, recommend it be shot in L10? http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=113858&st=0&p=1291829&hl="glock%2021"&fromsearch=1entry1291829 Not one person, NOT EVEN YOU” suggested the guy shoot in Production.

A newbie isn't going to show up with Arredondo extensions. If you allow extensions, it means yet another rule change...heck, let's just keep changing rule after rule, and make exceptions for everything while we're at it.

Your discounting how competitive a G21 could be is a bit much. It wouldn't be hard to come up with a reasonable load that would run the gun just fine. I've heard of guys with big hands using a G20 with a .40 barrel in it to be extremely competitive...this is no different. The top competitors aren't likely to pick a G21, but that doesn't mean a newbie couldn't shoot one in Production, and not be forced to compete against "raceguns" in L10. Yes, I would shoot a G21 in L10 over Production, but I'm in a different place, competitively, than a newbie. I know the gun means very little, and wouldn't be thinking "what if" about it.

Who said anything about “FORCED”? Guys who shoot Glocks in Limited with extension generally only get 19 rounds, are not “FORCED” to buy S_I just because a Rescomp mag can hold 22 rounds. 15 rounds would be a maximum requirement, not a minimum. So can we put this part behind us?

If someone has a gun they're shooting in Production now, or wants to start out, and has a gun with 12rd mags, they would have to buy a new gun if they wanted to be on a level playing field with everybody else, should the limit be raised to 15. That's forcing people.

Plenty of people get 20 in Glock mags with extensions, but that really doesn't compare....20 versus 21-22 isn't nearly as big a deal as 12 to 15 would be. Further, Limited is a division where you expect to be pushing equipment harder, and spending more time, money and effort to stay with the pack, so using a Limited comparison just doesn't fly, or make any sense.

Put this part behind us? It's the crux of the whole thing! Nobody wants to show up and find out that the rest of the division has more rounds in the gun....it's that simple.

It is interesting to me that your actions and intentions match, exactly, my observations and main thesis. Any reason why YOU are not considering a switch to a G21 or a Sig 229? They cost a whole lot less than a custom Shadow?

No, my actions really don't match your intentions or observations at all. I didn't have a "normal" 9 (can't count the Kahr PM9) when I decided to get set up for Production, so I went with the M&P. I like the grip angle, and the trigger is decent (with some work), but I don't really like polymer framed guns that much...even though I have 8 of them. I don't buy my competition guns based upon cost. I buy them based primarily upon how they feel/point for me, and the trigger. I like the way the Shadow feels, and it's got a pretty nice trigger...that's why I'm considering one. Still, using my actions as a gauge really isn't reasonable. I'm mostly an Open shooter and I have a pretty generous budget for my shooting, so I'm going to do whatever I need to in order to be competitive. I'm not the guy the rules are built around.

But that’s exactly what this is about. NOBODY would HAVE TO change a thing, and very very few would even feel compelled to. MOST people could then shoot their Production guns a little more as Gaston Glock envisioned as opposed to Sarah Brady. But on the other hand, as Voltaire put it: “It’s difficult to free fools from chains they revere.”

<sigh> No, nobody would have their arms twisted to change. They'd just be told "sorry, your gun isn't competitive any longer, go get another one". Or, a newbie would see the rules and say "but my gun only has 12rd mags, I would be at a disadvantage". Those are two negatives. Keeping the rule as it is, you don't have those two negatives. Compare that with the opposite. Keep the rule the way it is and tell current folks "sorry, if you want to load your mags up, shoot Limited". That's it...that's the worst case....nobody is forced to either buy a new gun, or be stuck at a disadvantage.

Seriously, here's the acid test: If the rule stays as it is (which it will, so this is really getting silly), are YOU going to QUIT shooting Production? If not...well, we have more proof that keeping the rule as is, will be better since we won't lose you, and we will probably gain more people.

I almost hate to say this, but through all of this, your statements simply come off as somebody who would really rather be shooting Limited, but doesn't want to spend the money on a dedicated Limited rig. Yes, I know you shoot quite a bit of Limited Minor now. You're a 90% M in Production....that's pretty sporty. It's also not remotely the perspective of a person on the street who's considering trying USPSA.

Don't forget the law of unintended consequences. If the limit was raised to 15, USPSA would probably be compelled to create another division...Production-10 for those states that have 10rd limits. That's not something I can see anybody wanting to have happen. As it stands now, pure and simple, Production is the most inviting division for the largest number of people....almost anybody with a popular gun can play, and do so on a level playing field. Sure, lots of those folks eventually move to other divisions, but growing the sport, and attracting new members requires having a division that most folks can get into without too much trouble.

I'll make you a deal. Get yourself a .40 Limited setup, shoot stages the way you want to, be happy, and I'll send you 10K once-fired .40 cases to take the sting out of it

Now before I get yelled at by the Mods for going on and on in a thread (hard to imagine, I know...lol), I'll leave it at that.

Edited November 7, 2010 by G-ManBart

[diehli]

IIRC, a few years back there was a guy in SoCal that ran a G21 in Production. Dave Something-Nordic. Got booted to Open (perhaps at Nats) for doing the 11-round first mag thing. They changed the rule shortly thereafter.

[Chuck Anderson]

Chad, you keep demanding examples of these 10-14 round capacity guns that are competetive at Nationals, even though few people believe that Nationals should be a good measure of what is popular. You've had two top 5 competitors in Production post on this thread with exactly that information but you choose to ignore it and say it's not possible. David Olhasso has successfully run a Beretta 96 and a Springfield XD .40 in Production, I believe he finished in the top 5 with each. Ernie Langdon shot a M&P .45 a few years back as well. Didn't do as well, but Ernie is still a hell of a shooter. Rich Dettelhouser has been towards the top of the Production heap more than a couple times. Bob Vogel shot a G35 (admittedly holds 15, but it's a .40 and shows the .40 is viable) well enough to win Nationals.

Developing USPSA requires divisions people can shoot with the guns they have now. Not telling them they need to buy something else, whether it's extended magazines, or a hi-cap 9mm. There are hundreds of thousands of guns that don't come with a 15 round capacity. (Not models, actual guns), Glock 20, 21, 23, 26, 27, 30, 32, 33, 36, 37, 38, 39, Beretta 96, Ninety-six, Sig 226 .40, 229, 228, 225, H&K USP and some other models, Taurus, Walther, Para, CZ all have models that don't have a 15 round capacity. Would any of those models be the best to take to Nationals, nope. Would they be a good introduction to get someone through their first few matches till they can decide if they want to continue in USPSA? Yep.

[John Tuley]

Pardon me for asking what may be a stupid question, but why does it matter what division the new guy shoots in for his/her first match?

I showed up with a USP Tactical .45. I shot Production the first time (because the USP .45 only holds 12) before finding out my gun isn't approved for production. When I took my dad to his first match, he shot an XD9. I had him say "limited" at the registration table so that he could load all the way.

Now, on my first day, my dad's, and most other new shooters I've encountered, the differences in divisions are not on one's mind. That newbie shooter is mostly thinking "damn, this is a lot of fun!" with a little bit of "I hope I don't screw up." Most new shooters are focusing on shooting the match safely to come up with strategy, stage plans, and all the other jazz that it takes to be competitive. Tell them that they signed up in production so they can only load to 10, and most will just do it; or, if you offer them the option to shoot that match L-minor or Open-minor, who cares? It's not like that score is likely to get them an awesome classification anyway. By the time they decide to come back, and start caring about divisions and classifications, they'll pick the one that best suits their gear and how they want to play the game.

I simply see no reason to push all those day-one shooters to Production -- or any other division. When they sign up, ask what they're going to shoot today, then advise them of their options. They'll figure out the divisions sometime after the initial adrenaline wears off and they decide why they're there, and learn some of the subtleties of the rules. If they want to be competitive in Production, they'll get the gear and (hopefully) start practicing with it. If they just show up to have fun doing something different, who (including the shooter) should care what division they end up fitting into?

-- John.

[smokshwn]

John,

It's not so much which division they shoot their first match or even their first few matches.

But it is a very important point that we can explain to those new shooters that there is a division that the existing equipment they have (Glock 21, XD 45, Beretta 96 etc etc) fits.

Yes, if a new shooter sticks with the sport, they will most likely begin to upgrade and purchase equipment that will help them become more competitive in their division of choice. There is also some validity to your argument that the new shooter shouldn't be concerned with the division/equipment and only look to have fun doing something new.

In my experience recruiting new shooters to the sport that is not the case. Whether the concerns are real or perceived the majority of those new shooters do express concern over what equipment they already own. A key aspect of getting any new shooter to come out is being able to assuage those concerns over equipment deficiencies. A 10rd limit in Production is an important part of being able to apply that concept to a wide variety of gun/caliber combinations that will most likely already be in the possession of that new shooter.

As an aside...to address the argument that the rules of Production should be based on which guns are competitive at Nationals falls flat on its face when you consider that regardless of the gun used, 99+% of shooters wielding them are not competitive platforms at Nationals.

Edited November 8, 2010 by smokshwn

[John Tuley]

It's not so much which division they shoot their first match or even their first few matches.

But it is a very important point that we can explain to those new shooters that there is a division that the existing equipment they have (Glock 21, XD 45, Beretta 96 etc etc) fits.

You make a good point. I guess I was thinking along the lines that nearly every gun a new shooter would bring (in a caliber larger than .355) fits into Open at the very least and probably Limited. Would it be competitive in either of those? Probably not . . . in fact, it's downright discouraging to shoot in one of those divisions with a stock gun (in my case, an unmodified USP Tactical .45 in L10 for two years) when everyone in your division has fancy 2011s, Tanfoglios, or tricked-out Glocks and XDs. I guess I hadn't considered that fully.

However, I still think that part of the point of Production is the challenge of planning all the reloads. Whether the majority of the guns used can hold 15 isn't the point. As I said before, I think it's just like soccer: we impose an artificial handicap on the players precisely because the game is more interesting that way.

-- John

[eric4069]

This seems to be a debate in which different people are going to have different opinions, and that is ok. I don't expect everyone to share my opinion.

My personal preference as a lowly class C Production shooter would be to allow 15 rounds. When I started last year I found stage planning for the frequent mag changes the most bother. In fact I've been shooting Limited Minor this year to avoid it (MP9). I haven't decided yet whether to make my next gun a Limited gun or whether to go back to Production. If we could use 15 rounds I would happily stay in Production forever.

Eric

[vluc]

When I started last year I found stage planning for the frequent mag changes the most bother. In fact I've been shooting Limited Minor this year to avoid it (MP9).

Eric, how so? What made them the most bother and why do you want to avoid it?

I've been following these threads and I just don't get the big to-do over the 10 rounds. Is it just those folks with 9mm's who want the 15+ rounds or is there a hue and cry for the .40 shooters to get maximum rounds into the production rig as well? Or is it the major/minor scoring?

For the life of me, as an almost full-time production shooter, I can't see why you need to have the 15 in a 10 round game. Production is a 10 round game, L-10 is a ten round game (and I've played that as well as Ltd minor), Ltd and Open is a cram them full game.

If you want to spray and pray, go to another division. If you want absolute accuracy with little margin for error, go Production or L-10.

Edited November 8, 2010 by vluc

[Patrick Sweeney]

Pardon my jumping in here, as a Revo shooter I'm accustomed to parsing a stage into manageable six-shot segments.

Let us assume for the moment we are at Day One. We are constructing Production as a new Division, and the proposal on the table is to make it a ten-shot magazine capacity.

If you disagree with the ten-round proposal, you have not one, but two tasks ahead of you;

One; to provide a compelling reason it should be some other figure, and

Two; to provide a compelling reason your figure is superior than any other.

it is not enough to say "ten rounds is wrong, I think it should be 15." Why 15? why not 14? or 16? Or 12?

Until you provide us with a compelling reason for 15, and 15 above all other options, simply proposing 15 is not a solution.

As for what new shooters do, they do what they do for hundreds of reasons. Only some of them are at all concerned about capacity. They may have other concerns. Like the match day I was extolling the virtues of Limited to a new shooter, and when I stopped he asked me "Can we make the ranges less muddy? I can't find my brass."