Anti-reloader conversion

[TheBlackSheep]

I went to a glock armorer's course a few weeks back, The instructor, one "Joel Hodge" was EXTREMELY anti reloaded ammo. He gave some examples that to the layman seemed to show that 1/16 of an over seating here and a 1/16 of an inch over powder there and BOOM you have doubled the pressure of a round. He used a .357 round as an example of how dangerous this alchemy of reloading is, I wasn't going to argue with the guy and look like a jacka$$. Now I have been taking alot of heat from my buddies that went with me. I have tired to explain that this guy was way out on the edge with is load to begin with but they don't seem to care and are less than pleased to have me shoot with them now because they "don't want to have to clean parts of my hand off of their guns when my ammo blows up". I am 100% sure that I am loading better stuff than what comes off the line, especially if we are talking wolf or some of the other lower quality factory loads. How do I convert them?

I have talked with some other guy that I know that load and they seem to think that glock seems to be very anti-reloads as well Why is this ??

Anyways if someone has any thoughts on how I can convert the masses

[diehli]

Disparage their sheep-like mentality. "That guy looks like an authority figure, let's become 'yeah, what he said' guys."

Print out some clearly BS stories from the innerwebz and present them to your friends. "Must be true. It's on the internet."

When it looks like the electricity might've started flowing to their 5-watt bulbs, provide them with real information about what reloading involves (like the fact that we don't measure powder charges in inches).

[G-ManBart]

I am 100% sure that I am loading better stuff than what comes off the line, especially if we are talking wolf or some of the other lower quality factory loads.

Unless you've spent tens of thousands of dollars for a Camdex or something similar (they're actually on the lower end from what I've been told), no, you really don't load "better" ammo than what comes from ammunition manufacturers. No offense intended, but we simply don't have the resources, or equipment that ammunition manufacturers do. We load ammo with our little presses, and do it in a completely different fashion from how the OEMs do it (they load powder by volume, not weight, and change the powder to suit...stuff like that). Yes, you can tune the ammo to your specific purpose, and to your gun(s), which may make it "better" for your use, but that doesn't mean it's higher quality.

I have talked with some other guy that I know that load and they seem to think that glock seems to be very anti-reloads as well Why is this ??

Product liability. How many factory rounds have you seen that were squibs, failed to go off at all, blew out the case wall, popped a primer, etc? Nearly every match I see someone have a squib or other similar ammo problem, with the occasional double charge/KB/etc. Those are always handloads. I've seen quite a few guns blown up over the years, and not one of them has ever been with a factory load. If I was selling a gun, I'd do exactly what Glock does and consider the warranty void if you use handloaded ammunition. Car manufacturers would probably do the same thing if we could figure out how to make our own gasoline. Most other manufacturers have similar policies, but Glock is maybe more vocal about it, even though they tend to take pretty good care of people who blow up their guns.

The Glock armorer guy is simply taking 2+2 and getting 5. I'm sure if he started talking about shooting theory, he'd say a bunch of stuff that you know to be completely untrue. When I was a kid I took a hunter safety course and my father told me something along the lines of "at some point one of the instructors is going to say something that you absolutely, positively will know to be completely wrong, and can prove it....ignore it." This is one of those cases. R,

[calishootr]

handloading achieves a bunch of different things, depending on your POV, for me its the cost savings vs. factory, when i started in USPSA style sports some 20+ yrs ago i started consuming HUGE amounts of ammo, for that, and the many match fee's had to cut costs somewhere, reloading was the logical choice, also, i load for a specific application that factory doesnt allow me(case in point, find a box of factory 38 super that makes major???) is there liability??? sure, and it rests SOLEY with me and my choice to reload my ammunition, do i load as well as factory??? that would be of personal opinion, have i had misfires and squibs??? sure KB's??? nooo, i respect what i am doing and realize that there is literally 1000's of PSI at the end of my arm, and if somthing goes wrong, im a very short distance from ground zero as it were...cautious is a good thing, attention to detail, aks a LOT of questions...you will be fine

like Bart said Glock is pretty vocal about product liability, who wouldnt be??? but to their credit, from what i have heard, they have been good to people who have managed a KB for whatever reason with their products

[Sarge]

I shoot with a guy who will not reload because his little 10 page owner's manual for his Ruger says in bold print "Do not shoot reloaded ammo" or words to that effect. It's just liability concerns. Ignore him and move on. Let your buddies keep shooting factory and you can pick up their brass.

[Bob DuBois]

While over the years I've seen my share of problems the worst blown revolver was with a major manufacturer, American made 357 Round that destroyed a S@W model 19 back in the early 70's. They did replace the revolver and pay the Emergency room trip for the shooter. Two more rounds weighed heavy in the box when it was returned to the dealer.

I'm sure a check weight system of some type is in play since then but it was factory loaded quality ammo.

Not reloading, your missing out on half the fun, puts a grin on my face when my pet load eats up a target and another shooter is fighting with Willy White Box. It's a plus for me wouldn't shoot half as much as I do were it not for reloading.

Have I every had a problem, yes I have, we all know what a bullet puller is and most have and have used a Squib rod. It reopens your eyes every time. I don't race reload and problems are rare but they do and will pop up. Just makes you a little more careful. Never shoot range pick ups and be selective on which friends ammo you put through your guns. The better the machine the better the checks, easier to find the case with a little mud stuck on the inside wall, etc. But there all operated by people and people make mistakes once in a while.

[Rob D]

I went to a glock armorer's course a few weeks back, The instructor, one "Joel Hodge" was EXTREMELY anti reloaded ammo.

Glad you posted this. I'm taking the armorers course with the same instructor next week. Now I'll know to keep my mouth shut about my ammo and absorb as much good info as possible.

[98sr20ve]

How good of a shot are these guys? Unless they have been provided training with ammo that they don't pay for (police, military, etc) I have the vast majority of people who don't reload are not very good shots in USPSA shooting. Even police and military seldom take the time and energy needed to become better then the average "C" class shooter. So my tactic is to out shoot them and then quietly brag about my cheaper ammo helping me become a better shooter. I went to a match last weekend with two shooters (neither reload right now). They both have some reloading experiance but never done their own pistol ammo. One is an officer with the Army. Very good guy, very good shot. The other is new to USPSA. All I had to say is "I am paying $3.50 per 100 for my ammo" At first they thought I was kidding. But when all you pay for is primers and powder ammo is pretty cheap. We did the numbers on buying Montana Gold ammo as well. Saving 50% is very attractive to people now. I cast, I never recommend people start casting to save money. It's a hube PITA compared to buying bullets. I find it worth the effort. Many would not. Either way, reloading is worth the money if thats all you care about. I do prefer my ammo over factory for production. Anti-reloaders will discount that because they want to train with "factory" type ammo so that doesn't matter to them.

[Jeff Matzka]

I don't mean to sound like an a**, but if there is anyone out there who is against reloading, I say "Good. More components for me".

[High Lord Gomer]

...they load powder by volume, not weight...

On most personal presses don't we also load powder by volume? I know on my 550 I adjust the volume by weighing it, but each throw puts a specific volume in the case.

[juan]

G man I have to disagree with you. the only thing they can do is load more rnds per min without sacraficing quality.

the faster I go the more room for error.

it all boils down to quality control. and the induvidual reloader.

I will not shoot reloaded ammo from some one I dont know . I dont know their standards of quality control, I will not fire it.

[G-ManBart]

...they load powder by volume, not weight...

On most personal presses don't we also load powder by volume? I know on my 550 I adjust the volume by weighing it, but each throw puts a specific volume in the case.

Not exactly. We adjust the volume of the powder to change the charge weight, to get the velocity we want. They adjust the burn rate of the powder to get the velocity they want, at the powder volume they've chosen. R,

Edited October 22, 2010 by G-ManBart

[Flexmoney]

I am 100% sure that I am loading better stuff than what comes off the line, especially if we are talking wolf or some of the other lower quality factory loads.

Unless you've spent tens of thousands of dollars for a Camdex or something similar (they're actually on the lower end from what I've been told), no, you really don't load "better" ammo than what comes from ammunition manufacturers.

I disagree completely.

How many factory rounds have you seen that were squibs, failed to go off at all, blew out the case wall, popped a primer, etc? Nearly every match I see someone have a squib or other similar ammo problem, with the occasional double charge/KB/etc. Those are always handloads. I've seen quite a few guns blown up over the years, and not one of them has ever been with a factory load.

You need to get out more.

I have seen 3 blow up (that come right to mind) that were factory loads. One was in one of my guns.

I have caught quite a few factory loads that weren't right. (115FMJ bullets with the nose barely sticking out of the case, for example)

[G-ManBart]

G man I have to disagree with you. the only thing they can do is load more rnds per min without sacraficing quality.

the faster I go the more room for error.

it all boils down to quality control. and the induvidual reloader.

I will not shoot reloaded ammo from some one I dont know . I dont know their standards of quality control, I will not fire it.

You can disagree all you want but unless you're loading the way benchrest shooters do, your ammo won't match the quality of any major ammo manufacturer. It's simply not possible with the machines we use. I got a case of Atlanta Arms 9mm ammo (new cases) and measured a random sample of them. They varied by .001" in OAL at the absolute max and most were exactly 1.100". I can't get that, even with a Redding Competition Seating die in a turret press. I chrono'd that ammo on four different dates and it's AVG, ES and SD numbers were ridiculously consistent. I managed to get ONE of my handloads to give a slightly lower SD (my 4 to their 5) and similar ES, on one date, but it isn't as consistent from day to day. I use my handloads, by choice, because they're softer and nearly as accurate (but not quite as accurate), and have a larger margin of error for PF. I found something similar with AA&A .38SC Major as well....SD down at 5 and ES of something like 12-15. Those numbers are very difficult to manage with handloads. Those are just two of many examples. Yes, I can tune my ammo to my gun, and I'm obsessive about quality, but I know that the limitations of the equipment I'm using won't let me get to their level of quality. R,

[G-ManBart]

You need to get out more.

I have seen 3 blow up (that come right to mind) that were factory loads. One was in one of my guns.

I have caught quite a few factory loads that weren't right. (115FMJ bullets with the nose barely sticking out of the case, for example)

The real question would be whether you've seen more factory, or more handloads blow up.

Any chance some of those kabooms were semi-autos with non-factory spring packages, just by chance?

Unless you're doing a whole lot of group training, I'd be extremely surprised if you see more factory rounds get fired in a typical year than I do....possible, but I'd be surprised. Just going through the academy I saw 170K worth of .40S&W rounds go down range and something like another 50K split between .223 and 10mm. During one temporary duty assignment (four weeks), I figured somewhere between 350K and 400K (the used brass bin on each range is a dumpster!). I recall one dead primer during that assignment...that's it. Do that periodically, and the sample size gets up there pretty quickly.

I've certainly seen bad factory rounds, just haven't seen any blow up (thankfully!). R,

Edited October 21, 2010 by G-ManBart

[Chills1994]

supposedly, there was one local shooter who bought some .40 cal WWB. When he got to the range and opened the box, he discovered than none of the rounds had extractor grooves milled into them.

I wish he had taken a pic of them before he sent them back to Wally World or Olin.

[Flexmoney]

Any chance some of those kabooms were semi-autos with non-factory spring packages, just by chance?

No. I think they were all fully stock guns. I know for sure that two of them were. (mine and the one I tore apart after the fact) I am pretty sure the third one I am thinking about was factory stock as well.

These were clear cases of defective (factory) ammo.

Unless you're doing a whole lot of group training, I'd be extremely surprised if you see more factory rounds get fired in a typical year than I do....possible, but I'd be surprised.

You are likely right. I am just giving you crap since you are so adamant in your position.

I just flat out trust my reloads over factory ammo.

[G-ManBart]

Unless you're doing a whole lot of group training, I'd be extremely surprised if you see more factory rounds get fired in a typical year than I do....possible, but I'd be surprised.

You are likely right. I am just giving you crap since you are so adamant in your position.

I just flat out trust my reloads over factory ammo.

LOL...fair enough.

What I think people may miss is that I've reloaded for something close to 30 years now (at least 28), and I use my own ammo without any reservation at all (to include passing on free factory ammo), so it's not like I'm anti-reloads. I'm pretty obsessive about the quality of what I load, but I can measure, weigh and chrono factory ammo and see results I'm simply not capable of reproducing with any consistency. If our equipment was capable of doing so, I'd like to think I would have found a way to manage it by now (or I'm realllly dumb!). R,

[GrumpyOne]

...they load powder by volume, not weight...

On most personal presses don't we also load powder by volume? I know on my 550 I adjust the volume by weighing it, but each throw puts a specific volume in the case.

Not exactly. We adjust the volume of the powder to get the velocity we want. They adjust the burn rate of the powder to get the velocity they want, at the powder volume they've chosen. R,

Don't we actually load by weight, not volume? Volume is how much space something will fill up, where as weight is how much something will weigh. The two are not interchangeable. Load one case with 5 grains of a certain powder weight and see where it comes to on the case mouth (to get the volume that is filling the case), then load another with a different powder. Chances are, they won't fill the case to the same volume. A pound of lead takes up much less volume than a pound of feathers, but they are both the same weight.

[High Lord Gomer]

We adjust the volume to give us the weight that we want, but (on a 550, anyway) adjusting the bolt on the powder measure changes the volume of the cavity that is filled by the powder and then moved over and dropped into the case. We don't weigh each charge, we expect that the same volume for each charge will weigh the same amount assuming that the powder is consistent and uniform.

If you set your press to give you the desired volume that weighs 4.0 grains when Powder A is run through it, if you don't change anything else, and simply switch powders you will get the same volume of the new Powder B but likely a different weight.

[GrumpyOne]

We adjust the volume to give us the weight that we want, but (on a 550, anyway) adjusting the bolt on the powder measure changes the volume of the cavity that is filled by the powder and then moved over and dropped into the case. We don't weigh each charge, we expect that the same volume for each charge will weigh the same amount assuming that the powder is consistent and uniform.

If you set your press to give you the desired volume that weighs 4.0 grains when Powder A is run through it, if you don't change anything else, and simply switch powders you will get the same volume of the new Powder B but likely a different weight.

True. But the weight is the determining factor of the charge we want, not the volume. We don't set the charge bar for a specific volume, as we don't know the volume, only what weight is dropped when we charge a case.

[Bouttime]

I think you would get the same volume, from Powder A to Powder B, but what about the burn factor of each powder.

Does this not change the volocity and powerfactor?

[Corey]

the "volume" would be the same as the same amount of space in bar (or the tube in a convention measure) but thats not how we do it. ever look at load manuals. for instance in a 45 ACP a max load with Clays for a 200 gr bullet is something like 4.3 while a starting load with Titegroup is 4.8 or so. different volumes of powder there would be a disaster. Yes we adjust the "volume" of the powder thrown but we adjust it until the WEIGHT of it is where we want it.

Black powder loads by volume, metallic load by weight.

Edited October 22, 2010 by Corey

[bbbean]

True. But the weight is the determining factor of the charge we want, not the volume. We don't set the charge bar for a specific volume, as we don't know the volume, only what weight is dropped when we charge a case.

Our presses don't have built in scales. We weigh powder to get the charge we want, but the scale only meters by volume. In a perfect world, the powder has a consistent density and weight and volume correlate perfectly, however, any change in that correlation, and our load will be off.

[G-ManBart]

Don't we actually load by weight, not volume? Volume is how much space something will fill up, where as weight is how much something will weigh. The two are not interchangeable. Load one case with 5 grains of a certain powder weight and see where it comes to on the case mouth (to get the volume that is filling the case), then load another with a different powder. Chances are, they won't fill the case to the same volume. A pound of lead takes up much less volume than a pound of feathers, but they are both the same weight.

I edited my previous post to make it more clear. Our powder measures meter by volume. We change the volume to get the weight of charge we want in order to get the velocity we want.

Major ammunition manufacturers don't necessarily do it that way. They pick a volume that they want, then alter the blend of the powder to get the velocity required with that volume, regardless of weight. R,