Chris Keen Posted October 3, 2010 Share Posted October 3, 2010 (edited) The new rule book defines Facing Uprange in the glossary. Facing Uprange . . . . . . . .Face and feet pointing straight Uprange with shoulders parallel to the 90-degree median intercept of the backstop. Does this apply to ALL COF's or just Classifiers? I really don't wan't to get into a rules discussion, lest it go south. This is more of an "enforcement" discussion. I just want to know the answer to this 1 question. If it applies to ALL COF's then I think more RO's need to pay closer attention to this fact. We've had this new rulebook now for more than 2 years. A start position is non-negotiable. It should be enforced by a diligent RO, end of story. Otherwise it's fate lies in the hands of the stage designer. When a stage designer writes in any walk-thru "standing in box, facing uprange" then this absolute definition of facing uprange comes into effect. Right? Maybe a stage designer could get away with something else, like "back to targets" or "facing away from targets". But other than that the stipulation would apply. Edited October 3, 2010 by Chris Keen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom D Posted October 3, 2010 Share Posted October 3, 2010 The new rule book defines Facing Uprange in the glossary. Facing Uprange . . . . . . . .Face and feet pointing straight Uprange with shoulders parallel to the 90-degree median intercept of the backstop. Does this apply to ALL COF's or just Classifiers? I really don't wan't to get into a rules discussion, lest it go south. This is more of an "enforcement" discussion. I just want to know the answer to this 1 question. If it applies to ALL COF's then I think more RO's need to pay closer attention to this fact. We've had this new rulebook now for more than 2 years. A start position is non-negotiable. It should be enforced by a diligent RO, end of story. Otherwise it's fate lies in the hands of the stage designer. When a stage designer writes in any walk-thru "standing in box, facing uprange" then this absolute definition of facing uprange comes into effect. Right? Maybe a stage designer could get away with something else, like "back to targets" or "facing away from targets". But other than that the stipulation would apply. Short answer is Yep! It aplies to all COF's if that is what the walkthrougs says is the start position. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mda Posted October 3, 2010 Share Posted October 3, 2010 Yep!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Keen Posted October 3, 2010 Author Share Posted October 3, 2010 (edited) So why is it such a problem to remember this 1 simple start position? Edited October 3, 2010 by Chris Keen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JThompson Posted October 3, 2010 Share Posted October 3, 2010 So why is it such a problem to remember this 1 simple start position? "Standing in shooting area toes touching line or Xs. The Xs are on the uprange side of the box/shooting area. What you have is a start facing uprange without the rule to tell you how to do it. JT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Keen Posted October 3, 2010 Author Share Posted October 3, 2010 Or if you want to be super-sexy you could say "standing outside shooting area with heels on marks! I get it now! lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JThompson Posted October 3, 2010 Share Posted October 3, 2010 Or if you want to be super-sexy you could say "standing outside shooting area with heels on marks! I get it now! lol How about, "bunghole pointing downrange" JT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wgnoyes Posted October 3, 2010 Share Posted October 3, 2010 Or if you want to be super-sexy you could say "standing outside shooting area with heels on marks! I get it now! lol How about, "bunghole pointing downrange" JT Nope, because the undefined ruled-on definition of "downrange" (we had this discussion last year) is anything from facing 0 degrees by-god downrange all the way to 89.999999.... degrees left or right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aztecdriver Posted October 3, 2010 Share Posted October 3, 2010 I RO'd a stage at a level II match this year with an "uprange" start. I made sure everyone knew it was defined in the rule book and also made sure everyone was started correctly. The first target was at about the 70 degree point to the mean intercept and many people wanted to start looking over their shoulder. No issues though. The DRLs I hang out with had beat this into my head from day one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Miles Posted October 3, 2010 Share Posted October 3, 2010 So why is it such a problem to remember this 1 simple start position? With some folks it's not about remembering it... they just want to game it to the Nth degree. In reality there is only one person who needs to remember it and that is the RO. I've had shooters who are twisted around so far it has to hurt. I reminded them of the start position so they halfway twist. By then I just let them stand there in their cockeyed stance until they ask what's going on and I'll explain again. Sooner or later they figure out that I'm not going to start them until they assume the correct start position. I don't mean to be a nazi about it but the rule is clear so follow it. Another reason is that some RO's don't know the rule and let folks get away with it. This can be taken care of by having a well written WSB. Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boz1911 Posted October 3, 2010 Share Posted October 3, 2010 (edited) The problem starts when the "uprange" start position is modified in any way. If the start position says "facing uprange" only it's by the book, once that's been modified it turns into "freestyle" uprange. Seems clear to me. Of course I have an issue with "arms naturally at sides". Appears to me a lot of folks hang their arms in very unusual positions. Edited October 3, 2010 by boz1911 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Keen Posted October 3, 2010 Author Share Posted October 3, 2010 (edited) So why is it such a problem to remember this 1 simple start position? With some folks it's not about remembering it... they just want to game it to the Nth degree. In reality there is only one person who needs to remember it and that is the RO. I've had shooters who are twisted around so far it has to hurt. I reminded them of the start position so they halfway twist. By then I just let them stand there in their cockeyed stance until they ask what's going on and I'll explain again. Sooner or later they figure out that I'm not going to start them until they assume the correct start position. I don't mean to be a nazi about it but the rule is clear so follow it. Another reason is that some RO's don't know the rule and let folks get away with it. This can be taken care of by having a well written WSB. Pat Sorry I wasn't more clear .... I meant why do so many RO's not KNOW the definition of "facing uprange"? It really is the RO who should be enforcing this, and all RO's have to re-certify every year, so why the lack of knowledge on this simple start position? Edited October 3, 2010 by Chris Keen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Baier Posted October 3, 2010 Share Posted October 3, 2010 So why is it such a problem to remember this 1 simple start position? With some folks it's not about remembering it... they just want to game it to the Nth degree. In reality there is only one person who needs to remember it and that is the RO. I've had shooters who are twisted around so far it has to hurt. I reminded them of the start position so they halfway twist. By then I just let them stand there in their cockeyed stance until they ask what's going on and I'll explain again. Sooner or later they figure out that I'm not going to start them until they assume the correct start position. I don't mean to be a nazi about it but the rule is clear so follow it. Another reason is that some RO's don't know the rule and let folks get away with it. This can be taken care of by having a well written WSB. Pat Sorry I wasn't more clear .... I meant why do so many RO's not KNOW the definition of "facing uprange"? It really is the RO who should be enforcing this, and all RO's have to re-certify every year, so why the lack of knowledge on this simple start position? That's a good question Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe4d Posted October 3, 2010 Share Posted October 3, 2010 Why dont more competitors know the rule ? Everyone gets a rule book. Point it out before the first shooter starts. I bet the people acting in this manner probably do know the rule. Sometimes you just see poorly written WSB's, the designer means facing up range but if he doesnt use those exact words the definition doesnt apply. A Start that says "standing in box toes on x's," (x's on uprange side of box) is NOT an uprange start and if I wanna turn to face target I can as long as my toes are on the X's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Miles Posted October 3, 2010 Share Posted October 3, 2010 So why is it such a problem to remember this 1 simple start position? With some folks it's not about remembering it... they just want to game it to the Nth degree. In reality there is only one person who needs to remember it and that is the RO. I've had shooters who are twisted around so far it has to hurt. I reminded them of the start position so they halfway twist. By then I just let them stand there in their cockeyed stance until they ask what's going on and I'll explain again. Sooner or later they figure out that I'm not going to start them until they assume the correct start position. I don't mean to be a nazi about it but the rule is clear so follow it. Another reason is that some RO's don't know the rule and let folks get away with it. This can be taken care of by having a well written WSB. Pat Sorry I wasn't more clear .... I meant why do so many RO's not KNOW the definition of "facing uprange"? It really is the RO who should be enforcing this, and all RO's have to re-certify every year, so why the lack of knowledge on this simple start position? The RO's recert every year and my guess is that this particular rule is not in the pool of possible questions for recertification so it is unknown to many RO's and so not enforced. Spelling it out in the WSB would help jog the RO's memory and maybe the stage designer could stress it at the shooters meeting. Other shooters could bring it up at the reading of the WSB on the stage. Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbbean Posted October 3, 2010 Share Posted October 3, 2010 How about, "bunghole pointing downrange" That might allow some of the guys I shoot with to have a competitive advantage! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe4d Posted October 4, 2010 Share Posted October 4, 2010 The RO's recert every year and my guess is that this particular rule is not in the pool of possible questions for recertification so it is unknown to many RO's and so not enforced. Spelling it out in the WSB would help jog the RO's memory and maybe the stage designer could stress it at the shooters meeting. Other shooters could bring it up at the reading of the WSB on the stage. Pat Thats not really workable, we have a rule book, this is one rule of many, Should match directors stand up and recite the entire rule book before a match ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 4, 2010 Share Posted October 4, 2010 This might be a case where desired outcome (stand this particular way) and reality bump heads. As stage designers, we might clear this up before it gets to the match. Or...what I like to do...is eliminate it. I prefer to get less restrictive on the start position. Just give the hand position, and toes touching marks. Or, skip all that and just have "hands touching respective marks" on a wall. <div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>It is a good topic to bring up and discuss. </div> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38supPat Posted October 4, 2010 Share Posted October 4, 2010 Of course I have an issue with "arms naturally at sides". Appears to me a lot of folks hang their arms in very unusual positions. Same with "wrists above shoulders" I've seen some pretty creative ways of accomplishing this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38supPat Posted October 4, 2010 Share Posted October 4, 2010 Why dont more competitors know the rule ? Everyone gets a rule book. Point it out before the first shooter starts. I bet the people acting in this manner probably do know the rule. Yeah, they know the rule, they just want to see how far they can get away with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted October 4, 2010 Share Posted October 4, 2010 BTW, my squad knew the rule...and corrected me on my start position (I think on the stage that Chris designed). I wasn't trying to get over...I just didn't pay attention to the walk-thru (which I might have read to the squad...lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted October 4, 2010 Share Posted October 4, 2010 I prefer to get less restrictive on the start position. Just give the hand position, and toes touching marks. Or, skip all that and just have "hands touching respective marks" on a wall. <div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>It is a good topic to bring up and discuss. </div> I've been known to write it as "Standing anywhere in free-fire zone...." If you design the stage right, it can be fun to watch for the different permutations.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyin40 Posted October 5, 2010 Share Posted October 5, 2010 I'm like a less restictive start. Leave those starts for those short stages or classifiers where a turn and draw has more weight. I like the very matter of fact starts on the short stages. Your able to tell exactly what you need to work on when you compare times. On a 20 secs stage the turn and draw isn't a big factor in the stage compared to a 2-4 secs stage. I like to see toes, heels or whatever on marks. Freestyle....... I don't mind those starts but I like to see how shooters pick which way to start and why on the more freestyle type of starts. Flyin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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