dmshozer1 Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 I have a M2. I cleaned it after 5K rounds and sometimes I put oil on the bolt. Every two years I replace the spring in the mag tube because I need something to do. Yeah, but it's not just about running. At some point you need to be able to hit a slug target. Not just run an Xrail dry. Ok dude. I am ready for the throw down. I can unload the chamber of my xrail M2 and insert slugs or buck at will and feed the tube so the next on or two or three are as well. Explain to the boys and girls how you do that with the shotgun from the evil empire. Charles, Sorry,I did not realize you were talking about a Xrail. I thought you were manual loading. It would re a great throw down! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Bond Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 We can start with 21 up and ready,In 2 seconds load 20 slugs...shoot as many as we need, in two more seconds be back fully loaded with 20 more birds or buck... we just leave a trail of mags behind us how long does it take to load 20 rnds in a X rail? Jim Jim that is another way but your going to run out of options if you keep dropping those drums of ammo on the ground every time you have to load a slug or two. And my Xrail is fitted with a speed feed ramp but that is not the point. Assume you have your Saiga and I have my M2 X rail and we have both loaded the rounds to engage a mixed field of targets in the order they will present themselves and let us assume that shell 16 needs to be a slug and we both load correctly but then we need 5 more shotshells to them complete the stage. If I miss with my M2 (and I know Chuck will dispute that I ever miss) I then clear the chamber, throw in another slug and I am back in business. Assume it takes me 2 seconds to do that and a half a second to reaquire the target and break the shot. Total time 2.5 seconds and a helf a second to get back on the next shotshell target and break it. So I have used up 3 seconds from the time I missed target 16 until I have made it up and broke target 17. If you miss target 16 you have to change mags (2 seconds), rack the shot shell out chambering the new slug (a second) and then reaquire the target (half a second). We are equal at that point. But then you have to do the entire exercise again a 2 second mag change, a second to clear the chamber and rechamber and half a second to get on target and break the next shot. So by the time your breaking target 17 you have used at least an extra 3.0 more seconds than did a M2 or FN or Mossberg, x rail or not. To be clear, at a match like Pan Am where your stages have no mixed target types, a Saiga is at least as good as anything else. With a mag well it is likely better. But as noted earlier, if it does not go bang reload speed is meaningless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpeltier Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 Seems like a lot of assumption based on a miss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Bond Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 Seems like a lot of assumption based on a miss. There are those of use who have missed and those who have not missed yet......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GentlemanJim Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 We can start with 21 up and ready,In 2 seconds load 20 slugs...shoot as many as we need, in two more seconds be back fully loaded with 20 more birds or buck... we just leave a trail of mags behind us how long does it take to load 20 rnds in a X rail? Jim Jim that is another way but your going to run out of options if you keep dropping those drums of ammo on the ground every time you have to load a slug or two. And my Xrail is fitted with a speed feed ramp but that is not the point. Assume you have your Saiga and I have my M2 X rail and we have both loaded the rounds to engage a mixed field of targets in the order they will present themselves and let us assume that shell 16 needs to be a slug and we both load correctly but then we need 5 more shotshells to them complete the stage. If I miss with my M2 (and I know Chuck will dispute that I ever miss) I then clear the chamber, throw in another slug and I am back in business. Assume it takes me 2 seconds to do that and a half a second to reaquire the target and break the shot. Total time 2.5 seconds and a helf a second to get back on the next shotshell target and break it. So I have used up 3 seconds from the time I missed target 16 until I have made it up and broke target 17. If you miss target 16 you have to change mags (2 seconds), rack the shot shell out chambering the new slug (a second) and then reaquire the target (half a second). We are equal at that point. But then you have to do the entire exercise again a 2 second mag change, a second to clear the chamber and rechamber and half a second to get on target and break the next shot. So by the time your breaking target 17 you have used at least an extra 3.0 more seconds than did a M2 or FN or Mossberg, x rail or not. To be clear, at a match like Pan Am where your stages have no mixed target types, a Saiga is at least as good as anything else. With a mag well it is likely better. But as noted earlier, if it does not go bang reload speed is meaningless. Charles In that senario...I would use a 20 rnd mag (clear) and load it in order..using two slugs for a safety factor If i did not miss the first slug,I would just Burn the second one, If I needed it..it would be there So If # 16 and 17 were slugs, I would still have 4 birds up before I reload back to 21 up I think worst case I would only have one 2 second reload to complete the stage And remember I have the option to use 5,12,16 or 20 round mags (no drums)loaded with any combo or shells I may need There are senarios that a tube gun may have a slight advantage in ammo management, but that is only in the short run In any long course, with large #s of shots, loading 20 at a time gives you quite an advantage in sheer numbers per loading event Its all a moot point for people at my level...the top guys will still SMOKE me loading by hand Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mpeltier Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 Seems like a lot of assumption based on a miss. There are those of use who have missed and those who have not missed yet......... I hear ya charles....except that I look at it from a differant perspective I guess. I look at it as if a shooter and their competition does not miss and everything goes as planned (which is what we all strive for right?) than surely without a reasonable doubt the advantage would be towards the box fed system. I certainly would never rely on my competition making a mistake (miss). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Bond Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 I rely on shotgun angels, makers mark and the weather. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alaskapopo Posted January 15, 2011 Share Posted January 15, 2011 With the new magazine coupler for the Saiga you can easily switch back and forth between shot and slugs. Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Bond Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 With the new magazine coupler for the Saiga you can easily switch back and forth between shot and slugs. Pat Before some one else asks, who is making it and do you have a link? All I have seen to date is small blocks of wood and duck tape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug H. Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 (edited) With the new magazine coupler for the Saiga you can easily switch back and forth between shot and slugs. Pat Before some one else asks, who is making it and do you have a link? All I have seen to date is small blocks of wood and duck tape. Arredondo makes them, here is a link: http://www.arredondoaccessories.com/category.cfm?cid=1004,2008&PID=jk29i1908juxqm&GID=. Ralph must be a pretty busy guy, always cranking out new stuff and he's fun to shoot with too! Doug Edited January 16, 2011 by Doug H. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck Anderson Posted January 16, 2011 Share Posted January 16, 2011 Cool, Doug, do you know if that works with Robbie's Shottys? Any issue with the charging handle. The shell stop was the one concern I had. I've seen a couple stop gap methods but nothing that worked 100%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnus DUX Posted July 26, 2011 Share Posted July 26, 2011 (edited) I am probably missing something here but after going through 2011 USPSA Multigun Rules I cant find anything prohibiting detachable magazine shotguns from any division. LINK Edited July 26, 2011 by Magnus DUX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiggerJJ Posted July 27, 2011 Share Posted July 27, 2011 Removable mags are considered speed loaders .jj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug H. Posted July 27, 2011 Share Posted July 27, 2011 I am probably missing something here but after going through 2011 USPSA Multigun Rules I cant find anything prohibiting detachable magazine shotguns from any division. LINK The Division info in the MG rules is a complilation, you have to go to the shotgun rules for the primary rules. http://www.uspsa.org/rules/2009ShotgunRules2-5.pdf See App. D1, D2 and D3 for the information you are looking for. Doug Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnus DUX Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 I new I was missing something. So FNH SLP it goes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now