3-gun?

[Iggy42]

So while I am new to the USPSA (third match tomorrow) my desire to to transition to 3-gun. One thing that worries me though is that from reading the rulebook I do not see a division for single stack under the 3-gun rules. Is there something I missed? If not should I move to production (since I am on a tight budget)? Since I am new to this I would like to use a handgun that can stay with me for the long haul if you will. Rather silly to be practicing/competing with a single stack if I should be using a production double stack (thinking a Springfield XDM) or whatever. Always been attracted to the limited/open class (who isn't) but I don't have 1500 to spend on a new(even used) gun. I am under no illusion and think I can jump right into 3-gun, but at the same time as I move forward I would much rather start off right while the financial impact is lower to replace mag pouches and such.

Any advice I can get would be great.

[MarkCO]

A single stack has it's place in the He-Man (Heavy Metal) divisions, typically with a pump 12 guage and .308 rifle. Remember though, that there are only 3 or 4 major major matches governed by USPSA rules. The rest have their own rules, most of them use, or resemble, IMGA rules. There really is no division in USPSA 3-gun for 10 round production though. Open is open, Limited is iron sighted. Tactical class is the large division at most matches: 9mm hi-cap pistol, 12 guage auto and One optic .223 AR is the most common trio.

What do you have for the Shotty and the Rifle?

What part of the country do you live in (so as to see what kind of 3 gun matches are in your area)?

[Iggy42]

A single stack has it's place in the He-Man (Heavy Metal) divisions, typically with a pump 12 guage and .308 rifle. Remember though, that there are only 3 or 4 major major matches governed by USPSA rules. The rest have their own rules, most of them use, or resemble, IMGA rules. There really is no division in USPSA 3-gun for 10 round production though. Open is open, Limited is iron sighted. Tactical class is the large division at most matches: 9mm hi-cap pistol, 12 guage auto and One optic .223 AR is the most common trio.

What do you have for the Shotty and the Rifle?

What part of the country do you live in (so as to see what kind of 3 gun matches are in your area)?

WVA/VA border really. I have been shooting with the North Mountain Practical Shooters and tomorrow is at Summit Point WVA. No Shotty or rifle as of yet (budget problems) hence why I wanted to start off with the right pistol since I will most likely be shooting pistol only for a little bit longer. Guess what I really need to know then as a beginner what is the best direction? Also any advantage to .40 S&W over 9mm? I prefer .40 myself (plus counts as "major" in the USPSA) but if its a waste of time or something I would rather find out now. In a nutshell I am trying to find a way to get the most bang for my buck.

[MarkCO]

You might search out Andy, the Blue Ridge match director (AFH on here) to see what the local matches run for rules in your area. There is a match in Arkansas end of October that runs USPSA rules.

My personal opinion is that the G35 is the best pistol for 3 gun...here's why. Less stress as far as safeties and grounding because everyone knows the Glock system. I've seen more than one top competitor put an "on-safe" pistol in a bucket and come back to find the safety off. At some matches, ROs handle your weapons after you ground them. If you want to shoot minor 9mm from a G35, $200 in a barrel and mags gets you there with 23 rounds. You can shot .40 in minor and .40 in major, at 20 rounds. It's a Glock, cheap and pretty reliable, and mags are cheap which both mean you won't baby them. You can do well with the same pistol in 3-gun, and USPSA production, Limited and Limited 10. They are easy to work and and rebuild yourself. If you are on a budget, no better choice. I'd rather spend the money on the AR where it does make a difference.

As for .40 vs. 9mm, in USPSA, major does help a bit in score, but not too much. Most guys just run 9mm accross the board. I shoot USPSA Limited and this year I shoot 2 major 3 gun matches with 9mm minor in my G35 and 1 major 3 gun with .40 major in my G35. I think I am sticking with .40 major because I could not really see any benefit in my scores with the 9mm. 9mm is cheaper of course. Especially on long range steel, I felt more confident with the .40 major which I think helped some. I have a lot more rounds downrange with the .40 than the 9mm, so that may be part of it. All in all, I'd go with .40 if you shoot USPSA matches and IMGA matches. If you were only to shoot IMGA matches, the nod probably goes to the 9mm.

Edited September 25, 2010 by MarkCO

[Iggy42]

You might search out Andy, the Blue Ridge match director (AFH on here) to see what the local matches run for rules in your area. There is a match in Arkansas end of October that runs USPSA rules.

My personal opinion is that the G35 is the best pistol for 3 gun...here's why. Less stress as far as safeties and grounding because everyone knows the Glock system. I've seen more than one top competitor put an "on-safe" pistol in a bucket and come back to find the safety off. At some matches, ROs handle your weapons after you ground them. If you want to shoot minor 9mm from a G35, $200 in a barrel and mags gets you there with 23 rounds. You can shot .40 in minor and .40 in major, at 20 rounds. It's a Glock, cheap and pretty reliable, and mags are cheap which both mean you won't baby them. You can do well with the same pistol in 3-gun, and USPSA production, Limited and Limited 10. They are easy to work and and rebuild yourself. If you are on a budget, no better choice. I'd rather spend the money on the AR where it does make a difference.

As for .40 vs. 9mm, in USPSA, major does help a bit in score, but not too much. Most guys just run 9mm accross the board. I shoot USPSA Limited and this year I shoot 2 major 3 gun matches with 9mm minor in my G35 and 1 major 3 gun with .40 major in my G35. I think I am sticking with .40 major because I could not really see any benefit in my scores with the 9mm. 9mm is cheaper of course. Especially on long range steel, I felt more confident with the .40 major which I think helped some. I have a lot more rounds downrange with the .40 than the 9mm, so that may be part of it. All in all, I'd go with .40 if you shoot USPSA matches and IMGA matches. If you were only to shoot IMGA matches, the nod probably goes to the 9mm.

Ok so if I understand you correctly I should move to production in USPSA if I plan on shooting USPSA and any other multi-gun I can find. Plus if I am correct you think that .40 is better to go with over 9mm.

Sorry if I seem like an idiot, just trying to minimize my mistakes, especially since it seems I made one right off the bat with by competing with a 1911 single stack. Granted it is the gun I own, but still.

[Maksim]

only thing is... if you are shooting production USPSA, it is all minor, no matter if you are shooting 9mm or 45.

Why not stick with your 45 single stack if you like it?

What are you going to be shooting more? USPSA or 3 gun?

[Iggy42]

only thing is... if you are shooting production USPSA, it is all minor, no matter if you are shooting 9mm or 45.

Why not stick with your 45 single stack if you like it?

What are you going to be shooting more? USPSA or 3 gun?

I would like to progress to 3-gun, but since I'm on a fairly tight budget these days I will be staying with USPSA for a little bit until I am able to purchase a rifle and shotgun. My overall goal is to do both so I was hoping to find a way can use the same handgun for both, but when I looked at the USPSA 3-gun rules it seemed everything was setup for limited handguns, and well I don't have 1500 to drop on a limited gun (as much as I would like to shoot limited or open)

Edited September 25, 2010 by Iggy42

[Maksim]

So use what you have now.... and save money. =)

[Iggy42]

So use what you have now.... and save money. =)

Mostly because I sold off some old paintball gear so I have a little extra cash on hand so I figured it would be the right time to make a change so that any shooting I do is with whatever I am going to be competing with in both USPSA and eventually 3-gun.

[MarkCO]

Ok so if I understand you correctly I should move to production in USPSA if I plan on shooting USPSA and any other multi-gun I can find. Plus if I am correct you think that .40 is better to go with over 9mm.

Sorry if I seem like an idiot, just trying to minimize my mistakes, especially since it seems I made one right off the bat with by competing with a 1911 single stack. Granted it is the gun I own, but still.

40 over 9mm: Yes, but that is a personal opinion and I am positive there are others who will disagree and have valid arguments to support that disagreement.

If you want to shoot He-man, then stick with your .45. He-Man is a great division to be sure. For about $2000 you can outfit yourself with a M14 and a pump shotty for He-Man. From where you sit right now, that is your cheapest route.

Production, shooting a 9mm or .40 S&W in minor loaded to 10 rounds (but with hi-cap mags you can load up to capacity for 3 gun) is probably your next best bet as far as cost. You can get an auto shotgun and a iron sighted AR for about $2000 and shoot in Tac Irons. Just add a scope and you could go to Tac Scope. Used Glocks run $300 to $400 at Summit Guns. The 17 is the 9mm and the G22 is the .40 S&W. Doubtful you will find a used G35 for less than about $450.

No-one thinks you are an idiot. We were all had to start somewhere and most of us have swapped equipment and guns more than we care to admit. My best suggestion is keep shooting that SS .45 and get to a few 3 gun matches and watch and learn. 3 gunners in large part are great folks, most of who will offer to let you try their stuff out...take them up on it!

[Jadeslade]

Most shooters at most matches are TacOptics. 9mm high cap-Glock or SVI, Automatic shotgun with 8+1 tube-Benelli, and an AR that shoots dead on and that you can see the targets with at 400yd. 2-2.5K for AR. 1-2K for shotgun, 500-2500 for 9mm. If you really want to load Open shotguns-check out video of Jerry Miculek or Mike Voight-you might change your mind. Have fun. DVC.

[HRider]

You can keep shooting your SS 1911. I shoot my 1911 in Limited/Tac Irons and Heavy Metal. I have a Glock, but I just like shooting my 1911. It really doesn't affect my score that much, your results may differ. Although you can spend a small fortune shooting 3gun, you don't have to. It is better to have a less expensive pistol/rifle/shotgun that you know where it shoots (through practice) than the most expensive gear that you only drag out on match day. I shoot Limited with an old Colt R6600 that is mostly stock and a Benelli M1 (they can be had cheaper than M2s). My heavy Metal setup is an AR10 and Benelli Nova. None of my guns were terribly expensive and I really like shooting iron sights. The largest drawback to Heavy Metal is the cost of .308 ammunition.

Look around, shoot other peoples setups when they offer (most people don't mind) then pick out the equipment that you want.

Welcome to 3gun.

Hurley

[Joe4d]

I know shooters will call this sacrilege, but without basing decisions on emotion, single stack 1911's are outdated, and only competitive in a match/division that handicaps better more modern designs, or creates special scoring just for them, honestly dump the 1911, they usually sell pretty well to people that do make decisions on emotion. You'll save yourself alot of time, and money on equipment as soon as practicality overcomes your emotional attachment to the 1911.

For multi game versatility, look at a doublestack .40 that has add on support to hold 20 rounds, has at least a 5 inch barrel, and is a mainstream platform with a winning track record and support,

Glock, S&W M&P, XD, STI, or Para. If you are a tinkerer and already familiar with the 1911 a Para 1640 may serve you well once the kinks are worked out.

With one of these guns tricked out in one direction or the other you can compete and win in USPSA production, Limited, Limited 10, IDPA SSP, or ESP, and pretty much any Multy or 3 gun match.

[Iggy42]

I know shooters will call this sacrilege, but without basing decisions on emotion, single stack 1911's are outdated, and only competitive in a match/division that handicaps better more modern designs, or creates special scoring just for them, honestly dump the 1911, they usually sell pretty well to people that do make decisions on emotion. You'll save yourself alot of time, and money on equipment as soon as practicality overcomes your emotional attachment to the 1911.

For multi game versatility, look at a doublestack .40 that has add on support to hold 20 rounds, has at least a 5 inch barrel, and is a mainstream platform with a winning track record and support,

Glock, S&W M&P, XD, STI, or Para. If you are a tinkerer and already familiar with the 1911 a Para 1640 may serve you well once the kinks are worked out.

With one of these guns tricked out in one direction or the other you can compete and win in USPSA production, Limited, Limited 10, IDPA SSP, or ESP, and pretty much any Multy or 3 gun match.

Considering I have shot a couple of different guns I choose to purchase a 1911 because I liked how it felt in my hand when I pulled the trigger. My M&P40 was ok, but did not feel as...solid as a 1911. That is only my opinion though I have sure other people have other experiences. If I could afford it I would get going with a double stack STI/SV gun since they are 1911 based instead of polymer. I can't so that is why I am exploring Springfield XD(m)s since I do not like the grips on Glocks.

[Iggy42]

Ok so if I understand you correctly I should move to production in USPSA if I plan on shooting USPSA and any other multi-gun I can find. Plus if I am correct you think that .40 is better to go with over 9mm.

Sorry if I seem like an idiot, just trying to minimize my mistakes, especially since it seems I made one right off the bat with by competing with a 1911 single stack. Granted it is the gun I own, but still.

40 over 9mm: Yes, but that is a personal opinion and I am positive there are others who will disagree and have valid arguments to support that disagreement.

If you want to shoot He-man, then stick with your .45. He-Man is a great division to be sure. For about $2000 you can outfit yourself with a M14 and a pump shotty for He-Man. From where you sit right now, that is your cheapest route.

Production, shooting a 9mm or .40 S&W in minor loaded to 10 rounds (but with hi-cap mags you can load up to capacity for 3 gun) is probably your next best bet as far as cost. You can get an auto shotgun and a iron sighted AR for about $2000 and shoot in Tac Irons. Just add a scope and you could go to Tac Scope. Used Glocks run $300 to $400 at Summit Guns. The 17 is the 9mm and the G22 is the .40 S&W. Doubtful you will find a used G35 for less than about $450.

No-one thinks you are an idiot. We were all had to start somewhere and most of us have swapped equipment and guns more than we care to admit. My best suggestion is keep shooting that SS .45 and get to a few 3 gun matches and watch and learn. 3 gunners in large part are great folks, most of who will offer to let you try their stuff out...take them up on it!

You can keep shooting your SS 1911. I shoot my 1911 in Limited/Tac Irons and Heavy Metal. I have a Glock, but I just like shooting my 1911. It really doesn't affect my score that much, your results may differ. Although you can spend a small fortune shooting 3gun, you don't have to. It is better to have a less expensive pistol/rifle/shotgun that you know where it shoots (through practice) than the most expensive gear that you only drag out on match day. I shoot Limited with an old Colt R6600 that is mostly stock and a Benelli M1 (they can be had cheaper than M2s). My heavy Metal setup is an AR10 and Benelli Nova. None of my guns were terribly expensive and I really like shooting iron sights. The largest drawback to Heavy Metal is the cost of .308 ammunition.

Look around, shoot other peoples setups when they offer (most people don't mind) then pick out the equipment that you want.

Welcome to 3gun.

Hurley

So if I am reading you both right sounds like I can get some 10 round mags for my 1911 a pump shotty and a .308 (Springfield M14 comes to mind, I think some of the AR makers have 7.62/.308 versions as well)

Given me a lot to think about, thanks

I need to hit the lotto or something so can pick up both Heavy Metal gear and Tactical (and go major with a .40 handgun)

Edited September 26, 2010 by Iggy42

[Iggy42]

Since I lack my own reloading equipment, and the space to do it here at the house, correct me if I am wrong, but over the counter store bought .40 rounds are major power factor right?

[MarkCO]

Since I lack my own reloading equipment, and the space to do it here at the house, correct me if I am wrong, but over the counter store bought .40 rounds are major power factor right?

In most cases yes. Try Atlanta Arms, they make a bulk major PF .40 match load.

[Chills1994]

depending on what your current proficiency level is like with the .45 1911...or comfort level....

I would recommend getting a Glock 9mm...either a model 17 or 34.

in my opinion, there is a steeper learning curve to shooting a single stack gun versus a 20 round 9mm.

if you"re just starting out in USPSA pistol, shooting a wonder nine allows you to concentrate on the moving and shooting aspects of it...without getting all geeked out over reloading mags every two steps.

for me, glocks just slice my meat paw open when that slide cycles, so definitely give your prospective new pistol a test drive first.

[Corey]

shoot the SS! the ONLY time it may hurt you is on pistol only stages with 30 or 40 rounds. then its only a couple of extra reloads which if you practice and get good, wont be much of a killer.

[Chills1994]

as far as the rifle and the shotty, I found a used remington 1100 "Fudd Gun" at a gunshow priced at $250. I was handling it and made sure everything worked on it like it should. I guess I looked like I knew what I was doing and the guy goes "I could let that go for 200."

it's not all back and tacticool, but it runs.

so my advice would be to study up on these guns and you might be able to pick something up cheap.

CMMG might be back to offering their "bargain bin" AR's. they were right in the $550 to $650 range.

I think their website is cmmginc.com ... I think.

[mpeltier]

My personal opinion is to get a M&P Pro 9mm and for the time bieng shoot production. This pistol will do everything thats asked of it , economically, in that division, as well as Tac-optic or limited devision in 3-gun matches. If you are real fond and familiar with the XD, that may be a good choice for you as well. Bieng you are seemingly quite familiar with the 1911, you may not be as happy with the grip angle of the Glock.

Heavy metal is not, in my opinion, a devision for the seriously budget concious.

[Sterling White]

Iggy - if your budget is that tight I would suggest that you approach the sport in a slow methodical way. You will want to build into the necessary items required to play - give yourself 3 years.

1. First get yourself a nice pistol as Mark just suggested and shoot it at all the local matches you can get yourself to over the next year. Learn the pistol game first before making the jump.

2. Start saving as much 9mm and 556 (reloadable) brass as possible.

3. Find a Dillon 650 as this piece of machinery will save you Big $'s in the long run. Learn how to load on it for the 9.

4. Find a FNH-SLP, Benelli, Remington, or Berreta capable of holding 8+1.

5. Find a quality 16" or 18" 556 with a medium length gas system and long handguard (such as a JP Rifle).

6. Call Nordic Components and order one of their AR-22 uppers to match your 556. This will also save you Big $'s in the long run.

7. Watch craigslist and all the forums for a gun safe. By now you will have accumulated enough to justify the cost.

8. Start thinking about a truck vault.

9. Start thinking about the truck or SUV to haul the truck vault. A mini cooper will work however not the best choice for getting off-road!

10. Somewhere in the numbers before now you will want to make friends with a good gunsmith!

11. Last but not least - you will want 2 quality scopes (such as the Valdada, Leupold, or USO (+ many others!) if you decide to shoot anything other than irons) which are just alike for the uppers! Hold on to your hat when it comes to making the decision on these.

spelling edit

Edited September 27, 2010 by Sterling White

[tunakilla]

Great advice Sterling, a great way to Collect the equipment and learn the game without buying the wrong stuff and the need to re-buy the correct stuff.

[Iggy42]

My personal opinion is to get a M&P Pro 9mm and for the time bieng shoot production. This pistol will do everything thats asked of it , economically, in that division, as well as Tac-optic or limited devision in 3-gun matches. If you are real fond and familiar with the XD, that may be a good choice for you as well. Bieng you are seemingly quite familiar with the 1911, you may not be as happy with the grip angle of the Glock.

Heavy metal is not, in my opinion, a devision for the seriously budget concious.

I used to own a M&P40 (before there where Pro's and before I was in the USPSA)and I did not care for the trigger they came up with to get around the Glock trigger lawsuits. Hence why I was thinking about a Springfield when you add in the Glock grip angle which you are right I did not care for. I plan on looking at them again before I plunk any money down, but I have to admit right now the Springfield is #1.

Iggy - if your budget is that tight I would suggest that you approach the sport in a slow methodical way. You will want to build into the necessary items required to play - give yourself 3 years.

1. First get yourself a nice pistol as Mark just suggested and shoot it at all the local matches you can get yourself to over the next year. Learn the pistol game first before making the jump.

2. Start saving as much 9mm and 556 (reloadable) brass as possible.

3. Find a Dillon 650 as this piece of machinery will save you Big $'s in the long run. Learn how to load on it for the 9.

4. Find a FNH-SLP, Benelli, Remington, or Berreta capable of holding 8+1.

5. Find a quality 16" or 18" 556 with a medium length gas system and long handguard (such as a JP Rifle).

6. Call Nordic Components and order one of their AR-22 uppers to match your 556. This will also save you Big $'s in the long run.

7. Watch craigslist and all the forums for a gun safe. By now you will have accumulated enough to justify the cost.

8. Start thinking about a truck vault.

9. Start thinking about the truck or SUV to haul the truck vault. A mini cooper will work however not the best choice for getting off-road!

10. Somewhere in the numbers before now you will want to make friends with a good gunsmith!

11. Last but not least - you will want 2 quality scopes (such as the Valdada, Leupold, or USO (+ many others!) if you decide to shoot anything other than irons) which are just alike for the uppers! Hold on to your hat when it comes to making the decision on these.

spelling edit

Since reloading has been mentioned several times (something I do wish to do once I find some room in my tiny house to put a good bench)any difference in cost for 9mm v .40S&W? I have never been big on 9mm, for no particular reason I just have preferred .40 <shrug> Thanks for the advice I was planning on taking the next couple years to build my way into 3-gun (and in that time I had hoped to met and befriend a good gunsmith and a 3-gunner) and I really want to start off on the right foot. Now why production over limited? With Limited I could take advantage of higher cap mags (stock mag on a .40 Xd(m) is 16) and lower the frequency of reloads. Now I know you can drop a pretty penny on a race holster and such (which is my guess why you recommend production) but you can use the production legal stuff.

[kellyn]

If you are on a budget, DON'T shoot heavy metal/he man. The cost of .308 and .45 ACP ammo and components are prohibitive. Remember you have to practice as well as shoot matches and you will save a ton of $$ shooting 9 and .223

Work your way to a affordable hi cap 9 mm (long slide Glock or M&P or CZ SP01). You can shoot Production in USPSA with no disadvantage and do quite well in outlaw 3 gun. If you feel the burning need to shoot a .40 instead of a 9, fine but you only help yourself in USPSA Mutligun.

Then get a halfway decent AR, put a decent trigger in it, and get a decent optic. ZERO it and practice. Then get a halfway decent shotgun and practice loading.

Sterling's advice is spot on.