virgina count penalties

[Jerry D]

10.2.4

Virginia Count

Limited number of shots fired before the reload (6).

Shooter fired 7, then made a reload.

One procedural.

period.

Troy

Well...Ummm....yeah. That's the way it's normally done. One procedural = -10 pts. for the stage...but, the quick thinking shooter was able to avoid even more penalties by choosing to fire fewer than the specified number of rounds after the reload.

If the course had been designed with two arrays (one round on T-1 thru T-6, reload, one round on T-7 thru T-12) then the seven shots before the reload would result in one extra shot(-10), and one extra hit(-10), a total of 20 pts down for the stage rather than the -10 he received. Furthermore, attempting to salvage the stage by firing five rounds after the reload would result in one miss(-10) and one FTE(-10), for a total of -40 for the stage.

I realize that at some point the additional penalties can amount to "piling on", but that's a choice for the shooter to make. I don't think the stage designer should build in an option for the shooter to avoid a penalty.

[wide45]

[

Well...Ummm....yeah. That's the way it's normally done. One procedural = -10 pts. for the stage...but, the quick thinking shooter was able to avoid even more penalties by choosing to fire fewer than the specified number of rounds after the reload.

If the course had been designed with two arrays (one round on T-1 thru T-6, reload, one round on T-7 thru T-12) then the seven shots before the reload would result in one extra shot(-10), and one extra hit(-10), a total of 20 pts down for the stage rather than the -10 he received. Furthermore, attempting to salvage the stage by firing five rounds after the reload would result in one miss(-10) and one FTE(-10), for a total of -40 for the stage.

I realize that at some point the additional penalties can amount to "piling on", but that's a choice for the shooter to make. I don't think the stage designer should build in an option for the shooter to avoid a penalty.

He got a penalty. Let it go.

[aztecdriver]

Response from DNROI:

DNROI,

The stage in question is Classifier 99-08, Melody Line. For reference, the stage procedure is Upon start signal, turn, then draw and from Box A engage T1-T6 with only one round per target, then make a mandatory reload and from Box A engage T1-T6 with only

one round per target.

The scenario is: the shooter shoots 2 on T1 and then one on T2-T6 before the reload and after the reload he fires from the right T6-T2 one shot on all of them and then he quits shooting what is the proper call.

There were 3 distinct opinions on the call of the proper penalty:

1. 1 procedural for 10.2.2 - failure to comply with the written stage briefing

2. 0 procedurals as 10.2.2 is negated by 10.2.2.1 as it states that 10.2.2 can not be used to penalize for number of shots fired.

3. 1 procedural for 10.2.4 for failing to perform a mandatory reload after firing 6 shots.

If you could help clarify, it would be appreciated.

Sorry for the delay, have been working on the squadding list for the Nationals next week.

None of the opinions fall into this case, what rule does is 10.2.4 and it is one procedure for the one shot fired before the reload.

John

I was there then over thought it -- all good now we know.

Cheers!

[rgkeller]

Which begs the question if the shooter had fired eight and four would there be two proceduals?

[aztecdriver]

rg,

As the clarification provided the rule and the rule stipulates:

10.2.4 A competitor who fails to comply with a mandatory reload will incur one procedural penalty for each shot fired after the point where the reload was required until a reload is performed.

The point at which the reload was required was 6 shots, the shooter fired 8 -- 2 procedurals.

[Corey]

not to be a pain, but lets throw a wrench in the mix. we now have the ruling that he gets one procedural for not reloading after 6. BUT.....

What if he had put 2 shots on T1, then shot to T5 then reloaded. would he then have to reload again after shot 1 on T6 to avoid further penatlys or could he shoot 2 on T6, then 1 on the others of course stopping before T1?

[Flexmoney]

not to be a pain, but lets throw a wrench in the mix. we now have the ruling...

<sigh>

We don't have a "ruling". Rulings are posted on the Official Ruling section of the USPSA website. (after review by the BOD)

What we have is another experienced RO with yet another way to call it.

[Schutzenmeister]

not to be a pain, but lets throw a wrench in the mix. we now have the ruling...

<sigh>

We don't have a "ruling". Rulings are posted on the Official Ruling section of the USPSA website. (after review by the BOD)

What we have is another experienced RO with yet another way to call it.

I would give it a little more weight than that ...

What we have is the opinion of the DNROI, whose job it is to write such rulings for submission to the BoD for approval. While not a ruling, I would give it more weight than that of "another experienced RO with yet another way to call it."

While I may not always personally agree with John, I do give his opinions more than a passing thought.

[John Baier]

I'm going with George on this, rule 10.2.2

[aztecdriver]

This is interesting - at least I find it so - for those that are tired of the discussion, I apologize, but I experienced something tonight that had relevance here and I want to explore it in the context of the thread.

So tonight we shot Steeler Standards CM 08-02. The Stage Procedure reads:

String 1: From Box A only, engage T1-T4 with only one round each freestyle, then perform a mandatory reload, then re-engage T1-T4 with one round each freestyle.

String 2: From Box A only, engage T1-T4 with only one round each freestyle, then perform a mandatory reload, then re-engage T1-T4 with one round each strong hand only.

String 3: From Box A only, engage T1-T4 with one round each weak hand only.

During my run, for some dumb reason, I miked my last shot in string 1. When I was resetting for string 2, I saw plain as day one hole, and I knew I needed that, so I decided I was going to make it up during my next string. Thinking SPECIFICALLY about this thread - I shot the 4 rounds freestyle, then shot the makeup on the strong hand only portion. Why, because had I fired the makeup on the freestyle portion of the string, I would have fired 5 shots instead of 4 before the mandatory reload and should have incurred the penalty under 10.2.4 as well as the extra shot penalty, according to this discussion. Or would it have mattered if I fired the shot on the freestyle portion because I was already eating the extra shot penalty?

[Schutzenmeister]

This is interesting - at least I find it so - for those that are tired of the discussion, I apologize, but I experienced something tonight that had relevance here and I want to explore it in the context of the thread.

So tonight we shot Steeler Standards CM 08-02. The Stage Procedure reads:

String 1: From Box A only, engage T1-T4 with only one round each freestyle, then perform a mandatory reload, then re-engage T1-T4 with one round each freestyle.

String 2: From Box A only, engage T1-T4 with only one round each freestyle, then perform a mandatory reload, then re-engage T1-T4 with one round each strong hand only.

String 3: From Box A only, engage T1-T4 with one round each weak hand only.

During my run, for some dumb reason, I miked my last shot in string 1. When I was resetting for string 2, I saw plain as day one hole, and I knew I needed that, so I decided I was going to make it up during my next string. Thinking SPECIFICALLY about this thread - I shot the 4 rounds freestyle, then shot the makeup on the strong hand only portion. Why, because had I fired the makeup on the freestyle portion of the string, I would have fired 5 shots instead of 4 before the mandatory reload and should have incurred the penalty under 10.2.4 as well as the extra shot penalty, according to this discussion. Or would it have mattered if I fired the shot on the freestyle portion because I was already eating the extra shot penalty?

It would have made no difference. You can only penalize a given shot or action with a procedural one time. In either way you describe, there would only be one penalty. (See 10.2.2 ... "Do not apply two different penalties for the same offense, ...")

[Flexmoney]

not to be a pain, but lets throw a wrench in the mix. we now have the ruling...

<sigh>

We don't have a "ruling". Rulings are posted on the Official Ruling section of the USPSA website. (after review by the BOD)

What we have is another experienced RO with yet another way to call it.

I would give it a little more weight than that ...

What we have is the opinion of the DNROI, whose job it is to write such rulings for submission to the BoD for approval. While not a ruling, I would give it more weight than that of "another experienced RO with yet another way to call it."

While I may not always personally agree with John, I do give his opinions more than a passing thought.

If you think I gave his opinion a "passing thought", you are mistaken.

I usually type out a similar disclaimer...giving due respect and props to DNROI. His opinions can, and do, carry extra weight. As they should. But, I've type that out here a dozen or two times in the past...

My point was... his opinion is not a ruling. We can't treat it as such. Come match day, we have... ( 1 ) The rule book. ( 2 ) The "Official Rulings" posted on the USPSA website. ( 3 ) The processes laid out within the rule book ... (RO > CRO > RM > Arb.)

======================

On this one, we have a LOT of of experienced Range Officials giving various inputs on the specifics of this call. There is no consensus.

[JThompson]

Here's the way I see it upon further reflection.

He did violate 10.2.2, but in this instance it directs us to look elsewhere for the penalty.

We do that and find 10.2.4, the shooter shot an "extra shot before the reload." Six shots were the max permissible and he fired 7 "before" a reload was made.

1 procedural

The problem is there "appears" to be a lot of different ways to call this and more than one option has merit. I think what I quoted above is the "most right," but that's not to say I think the rules are as clear and concise as they could be in this area.

And those, my friends, are my last words on this one...

Best,

JT

[aztecdriver]

It would have made no difference. You can only penalize a given shot or action with a procedural one time. In either way you describe, there would only be one penalty. (See 10.2.2 ... "Do not apply two different penalties for the same offense, ...")

Yeah - I don't know if that is the application of the wording in 10.2.2. I'm shooting a classifier with a barricade requiring strong hand only and I'm going to make up a shot at the end on a hard lean target, at this point I might as well grab the barricade with my off hand and use the support, because the extra shot penalty is going to negate the penalty under 10.2.8.3. In the example given, the extra shot penalty negates the miss penalty I WOULD have taken had I not shot, not the penalty for violating any other rule, such as 10.2.8.3, or 10.2.4. Think about it another way - I might as well just step out, put my weak hand up on the gun and take a huge advantage on that shot and guarantee the alpha as I'm only getting dinged for 1 procedural.

I hear exactly what you are saying, and I'm just saying I'm confused as to the application. I appreciate all the RM's opinions - I love to RO, but with this type of doubt on virginia count stages - amongst everyone, I want a little more certainty. I don't want Mr. RM on my stage every time I make a call on a procedural argument - one way or another.

[ac4wordplay]

... I appreciate all the RM's opinions - I love to RO, but with this type of doubt on virginia count stages - amongst everyone, I want a little more certainty. I don't want Mr. RM on my stage every time I make a call on a procedural argument - one way or another.

+1 Well said.

[mgood]

on classifier 99-08 melody line, a shooter get up shoots 2 on T1 and then one on T2-T6 before the reload. . . .

I did this on CM 06-06 Golden Bullet Standards.

String 1 On signal, engage targets with one round each,

perform a mandatory reload and re-engage each

target with one round each strong hand only.

String 2 On signal, engage each target with one round

each, perform a mandatory reload and re-engage

each target with one round each weak hand only.

Starting right to left, I drew and put two rounds in T6, then remembered what I was supposed to be doing and put one round each into T5-T1. I was not trying to gain a competitive advantage. I'd been shooting two rounds per target on every other stage and when I got there, I just drew and fired two rounds at the first target, like I'd been doing, before my brain caught up. Reloaded and, SHO, put one round in each T1-T6.

While making ready for my next string, the RO pointed out that I'd already earned a procedural for shooting two rounds at T6. He told me that if I finished the stage with too many holes in that target, that would be another procedural. "So I should burn one?" I asked.

"I'm not telling you to miss," he says, "I'm just saying that if you have too many hits on that target, it'll be another penalty."

So on string two, I drew and put one round in each T1-T5 and missed T6.

Reloaded. WHO put one round in each T6-T1.

I fired 13 rounds in the first string, 7 before reloading and 6 after.

String 2 I fired the correct number of shots.

In the end, all the targets had the correct number of holes in them.

I was given one procedural. Right or wrong, that's how it was scored.

The "stacking" rule is there so people don't game the stage, not for a guy that forgets and puts two on one.

George Jones recently posted the following on another thread that may be revelant...or at least interesting...to the discussion on this thread. Retained his bold for emphasis.

"From the latest rules updates:

10.2.2 A competitor who fails to comply with a procedure specified in the

written stage briefing will incur one procedural penalty for each occurrence.

However, if a competitor has gained a significant advantage during

non-compliance, the competitor may be assessed one procedural

penalty for each shot fired, instead of a single penalty (e.g. firing multiple

shots contrary to the required position or stance). Do not apply

two different penalties for the same offense, (e.g. not firing the required

rounds in a Virginia Count stage; competitor gets a miss and no procedural)."

Continuing the exploration...

I disagree - and believe it to be one penalty. The reason being is the competitor IS already being penalized for failing to comply with WSB via 10.2.2. Requiring them to incur an extra shot penalty (and assuming they weren't smart enough to miss on the last shot, an extra hit penalty as well) is double penalty for one mistake.

If that is the case, why do we even have an "extra shot" AND and "extra hit" penalty in the first place? The fundamental logic there would seem to be that the shooter is already penalized with either one...why do they get hit with another?

Because they are two seperate events ... even if they happen to coincide within one shot.

Extra Shot - You fired too many rounds.

Extra Hit - You put too many rounds on a given target.

Either one can exist independently of the other. The extra shot is determined while the competitor is shooting. The extra hit is determined while the RO is scoring.

If some of the best in the business can't agree on how to handle this issue, there is clearly room for clarification.