virgina count penalties

[mhop]

on classifier 99-08 melody line, a shooter get up shoots 2 on T1 and then one on T2-T6 before the reload and after the reload he fires from the right T6-T2 one shot on all of them and then he quits shooting what is the proper call. thanks

i called it one procedural for the extra shot and that was it because you have to score the targets independently from where the shooter shot from what i remember in the ro class i took

[JThompson]

Good call.....

[mactiger]

One extra shot, as you called it.

Troy

[George Jones]

Although the end result may be the same in the score, that is not the correct call.

Extra Shot penalties are assessed for extra shots in a string (Rule 9.4.5.1). From what you told us, it appears that he fired the correct number of shots (12) in the string (7 before the reload and 5 after the reload).

The more correct call is "one procedural for failing to follow the course description" (Rule 10.2.2).

Although it might end up in the same final score for this shooter in this instance, calling an incorrect penalty can often result in other errors.

But you are correct that Extra Shot penalties are called at the shooting location, regardless of target scoring. Later, when you score the targets, you just score what you see, regardless of what the shooter did.

[Nik Habicht]

I think George is mostly correct -- it's not an extra shot, that would take 13. I'm not sure that the very general rule 10.2.2 is the best applicable rule, since we have a more specific rule that covers the situation:

10.2.4 A competitor who fails to comply with a mandatory reload will incur one procedural penalty for each shot fired after the point where the reload was required until a reload is performed.

The outcome's the same -- and 10.2.4 would be hardest to overturn at arbitration, where 9.4.5.1 should be easy to overturn, if the shooter really wanted a reshoot....

[BayouSlide]

Nik, I might be missing something, but if I understand correctly, the competitor starts off with two shots on T1. To me, 10.4.2 would more properly apply in a case where the shooter completed his one shot on T1-6 then shoots an additional shot on T1 before reloading.

I would think 10.2.2 is the most applicable.

Curtis

[JoshF]

after the reload he fires from the right T6-T2 one shot on all of them and then he quits shooting

So you can use a "stacked" shot from the first time without penalty? With this type of classifier requiring a mandatory reload do you treat each group of shots as a string or is it all one string?

[mhop]

it is one string

Edited September 20, 2010 by mhop

[JoshF]

it is one string

I heard you already. I'm checking with the peanut gallery

[Flexmoney]

STAGE PROCEDURE (for added clarity):

Upon start signal, turn, then draw and from Box A

engage T1-T6 with only one round per target, then make a

mandatory reload and from Box A engage T1-T6 with only

one round per target.

Key word here is "then". The way that has always been taught, and how I have seen everybody here apply it over the years, is that the the word "then" means you have to fully meet the procedure before the "then", and also fully meet the procedure after the "then". Those are two separate "occurrences" (10.2.2, I believe)

Here, there are two instances of not following the stage procedure.

- "...from Box A engage T1-T6 with only one round per target, then..." - That is one procedural, given the above mentioned scenario.

- "...then make a mandatory reload and from Box A engage T1-T6..." - That is one more procedural, given the above mentioned scenario

============

Josh, I think you are on the right line of thinking with the stacked shots, but I'd call it a bit differently (see above).

[BayouSlide]

STAGE PROCEDURE (for added clarity):

Upon start signal, turn, then draw and from Box A

engage T1-T6 with only one round per target, then make a

mandatory reload and from Box A engage T1-T6 with only

one round per target.

Key word here is "then". The way that has always been taught, and how I have seen everybody here apply it over the years, is that the the word "then" means you have to fully meet the procedure before the "then", and also fully meet the procedure after the "then".

Here, there are two instances of not following the stage procedure.

- "...from Box A engage T1-T6 with only one round per target, then..." - That is one procedural, given the above mentioned scenario.

- "...then make a mandatory reload and from Box A engage T1-T6..." - That is one more procedural, given the above mentioned scenario

============

Josh, I think you are on the right line of thinking with the stacked shots, but I'd call it a bit differently (see above).

I also considered stacked shots, but it doesn't seem to fit the criteria: the competitor ended up with the required number of shots on every target (bold added for emphasis)...no target ended up with fewer shots than specified.

9.4.5.3 Stacked shots (i.e. obviously shooting more than the required

rounds on a target(s) while shooting other target(s) with fewer

shots than specified in any string), will incur one procedural

penalty per target insufficiently engaged in any string. This

penalty will not be applied if the written stage briefing specifically

authorizes stacked shots.

Curtis

[mhs]

STAGE PROCEDURE (for added clarity):

Upon start signal, turn, then draw and from Box A

engage T1-T6 with only one round per target, then make a

mandatory reload and from Box A engage T1-T6 with only

one round per target.

Key word here is "then". The way that has always been taught, and how I have seen everybody here apply it over the years, is that the the word "then" means you have to fully meet the procedure before the "then", and also fully meet the procedure after the "then". Those are two separate "occurrences" (10.2.2, I believe)

Here, there are two instances of not following the stage procedure.

- "...from Box A engage T1-T6 with only one round per target, then..." - That is one procedural, given the above mentioned scenario.

- "...then make a mandatory reload and from Box A engage T1-T6..." - That is one more procedural, given the above mentioned scenario

============

Josh, I think you are on the right line of thinking with the stacked shots, but I'd call it a bit differently (see above).

Edited September 20, 2010 by mhs

[JThompson]

Kyle,

Thanks for posting the procedure...

Anyway, the way I see it is an extra shot on T1. He didn't follow the proper procedure which requires one shot per before the reload according to the WSB.... So, saying that it is an extra shot works fine because the shot caused a failure to comply with the WSB. (10.2.2)

The "stacking" rule is there so people don't game the stage, not for a guy that forgets and puts two on one.

After reading Kyles reply, I must say that I think that a second penalty could be applied as well... I hate to kick a guy when they are down and chose to think of this as one occurrence. Perhaps, that is in error, but if I am to error, it will be for the shooter and not against him/her. Look at it this way... The shooter can not comply with the WSB at that point without being penalized again for an for an extra hit as well. That's a gotcha and not what the rules are for. I stick with my original assessment.... One extra shot on T1 causing a non compliance with the WSB. (10.2.2) I'm not going to make a guy shoot off the target after the reload to comply with a WSB. I do not believe that is why the rule was written that way. He didn't gain anything significant and has been penalized for the occurrence.

Kyle referring to this part of 101.2.2 "A competitor who fails to comply with a procedure specified in the written stage briefing will incur one procedural penalty for each occurrence."

Edited September 20, 2010 by JThompson

[mhs]

I think I had that wrong...

Edited September 20, 2010 by mhs

[BayouSlide]

George Jones recently posted the following on another thread that may be revelant...or at least interesting...to the discussion on this thread. Retained his bold for emphasis.

"From the latest rules updates:

10.2.2 A competitor who fails to comply with a procedure specified in the

written stage briefing will incur one procedural penalty for each occurrence.

However, if a competitor has gained a significant advantage during

non-compliance, the competitor may be assessed one procedural

penalty for each shot fired, instead of a single penalty (e.g. firing multiple

shots contrary to the required position or stance). Do not apply

two different penalties for the same offense, (e.g. not firing the required

rounds in a Virginia Count stage; competitor gets a miss and no procedural)."

Curtis

Edited: 'cause I hate tipos typos!

Edited September 20, 2010 by BayouSlide

[JThompson]

George Jones recently posted the following on another thread that may be revelant...or at least interesting...to the discussion on this thread. Retained his bold for emphasis.

"From the latest rules updates:

10.2.2 A competitor who fails to comply with a procedure specified in the

written stage briefing will incur one procedural penalty for each occurrence.

However, if a competitor has gained a significant advantage during

non-compliance, the competitor may be assessed one procedural

penalty for each shot fired, instead of a single penalty (e.g. firing multiple

shots contrary to the required position or stance). Do not apply

two different penalties for the same offense, (e.g. not firing the required

rounds in a Virginia Count stage; competitor gets a miss and no procedural)."

Curtis

Edited: 'cause I hate tipos typos!

That's it Curtis... Good catch!!

JT

[George Jones]

One procedural for not following the course description (10.2.2).

That's all folks!

No additional penalty for insufficient shots after the reload per the same rule.

[Flexmoney]

As has been mentioned, by George, the 9.4.5 rules don't quite fit...because it is all one string. (so, stacking and extra shots don't apply in this case)

George Jones recently posted the following on another thread that may be revelant...or at least interesting...to the discussion on this thread. Retained his bold for emphasis.

"From the latest rules updates:

10.2.2 A competitor who fails to comply with a procedure specified in the

written stage briefing will incur one procedural penalty for each occurrence.

However, if a competitor has gained a significant advantage during

non-compliance, the competitor may be assessed one procedural

penalty for each shot fired, instead of a single penalty (e.g. firing multiple

shots contrary to the required position or stance). Do not apply

two different penalties for the same offense, (e.g. not firing the required

rounds in a Virginia Count stage; competitor gets a miss and no procedural)."

I didn't overlook that (bold). It doesn't apply here, for a few reasons.

The applicable rule, as George also mentioned, is 10.2.2 ... failing to follow what is written in the Procedure.

- First, this isn't a case where the shooter didn't fire the the required rounds for Virginia. He fired his 12.

- This is not the "same offense." This is a case of two occurrences. An easy litmus test for that is to look at it as if it is two stages. For example:

-

Upon start signal, turn, then draw and from Box A

engage T1-T6 with only one round per target.

If that were the stage, we'd give the shooter 1 Procedural for firing twice at T1 (an "extra shot" would likely be the applicable Procedural to apply in this case)

-

Upon start signal, turn, then draw,

make a

mandatory reload and from Box A engage T1-T6 with only

one round per target.

If that were the stage, we'd give the shooter one Procedural for not shooting at T1 (an FTE would likely be the applicable Procedural to apply in this case).

The shooter had two distinct instances of failing to follow the written procedure. Since they occurred within a string on VC, 10.2.2 is the rule to apply.

(Now...if you are on board with that... I can refute that position in a way that hasn't yet been mentioned. Heck, I can probably show this to be zero procedurals. )

[rgkeller]

Seems like two procedurals to me.

10.2.2 does not apply

[BayouSlide]

(Now...if you are on board with that... I can refute that position in a way that hasn't yet been mentioned. Heck, I can probably show this to be zero procedurals. )

I'm with that...let the games begin! This is why the Rules forum is more fun than network television

Curtis

[Flexmoney]

Seems like two procedurals to me.

10.2.2 does not apply

Elaborate?

[Corey]

these threads get my head spinning, but its a learning experience so ill stick with it, lol.

Seems like 2 procedurals to me. He fired 2 shots when the WSB called for one. He also didnt fire a shot on one target after the reload. Didnt do two things the WSB requires. seems like 2 procedurals

[rgkeller]

two procedurals are for firing more than six shots before the reload and fewer than six shots after the reload

there are no miss penalties as the situation was described because there are no misses due to the failure to fire six shots after the reload so 10.2.2 has no relevance in the instant case

Edited September 21, 2010 by rgkeller

[Flexmoney]

two procedurals are for firing more than six shots before the reload and fewer than six shots after the reload

there are no miss penalties as the situation was described because there are no misses due to the failure to fire six shots after the reload so 10.2.2 has no relevance in the instant case

What rule(s) would you use to support that call?

[aztecdriver]

I disagree - and believe it to be one penalty. The reason being is the competitor IS already being penalized for failing to comply with WSB via 10.2.2. Requiring them to incur an extra shot penalty (and assuming they weren't smart enough to miss on the last shot, an extra hit penalty as well) is double penalty for one mistake. Despite the circumstances in the NROI ruling being simply not shooting enough rounds, the interpretation should be the same.

Question: We were shooting classifier CM08-01 Virginia Count. The procedure is: String1: On signal, engage one target with only six rounds freestyle, make mandatory reload, etc. The shooter engages first target with five (5) rounds, makes mandatory reload and completes the COF. RO gives the shooter one miss penalty (well deserved) plus a procedural penalty for shooting less than six rounds required sighting the per rule 10.2.2

Answer: It is scored as a miss with no procedural for failing to fire the 6 rounds, the competitor is already being penalized for the infraction. 10.2.2 stipulates a procedural per shot for failing to comply with a stage procedure, this would mean for example, carrying a briefcase while engaging targets, the competitor leaves it behind and shoots without it.