Dropped gun at the chrono station

[Skydiver]

Let's say that the chrono officer, is also a competitor who shot during the staff match. At the chronograph station the following happens:

Scenario 1: Chrono officer asks competitor to draw the gun and put it on the table. In the process of drawing the gun, the competitor loses control of gun and it falls to the ground. Is the competitor DQ'd for a dropped gun during a CoF? Or is this just a regular dropped gun situation and the chrono officer can pick up the gun for the competitor?

Scenario 2: Chrono officer asks competitor to draw the gun and put it on the table. In the process of picking up the gun from the table, the chrono officer loses control of gun and it falls to the ground. Is the chrono officer DQ'd for a dropped gun during a CoF? Or is this a regular dropped gun situation, but it'll have to be another RO who picks the gun up?

Scenario 3: Chrono officer is loading the gun, or shooting the gun, and loses control, and the loaded gun falls to the ground, the table, or the chrono officer's lap. Is the chrono officer DQ'd for a dropped gun during a CoF? Or is this a regular dropped gun situation, but it'll have to be another RO who picks the gun up?

Scenario 4: Chrono officer put in an empty magazine into the gun, and drops the gun as he is trying to fit the gun into the measuring box. Is the chrono officer DQ'd for a dropped gun during a CoF? Or is this a regular dropped gun situation, but it'll have to be another RO who picks the gun up?

Scenario 5: Chrono officer is done testing the gun, lays the gun on the table, and asks the competitor to re-holster the gun. In the process of picking up the gun, or re-holstering, the competitor loses control of the gun and it falls to the ground. Is the competitor DQ'd for a dropped gun during a CoF?

[A couple minor edits for the missing "put it on the table" in Scenario 1 and 2; and added "loading or shooting the gun" is Scenario 3.]

Edited September 18, 2010 by Skydiver

[GrumpyOne]

Wow! All I can say is I can't wait to see the responses to this thread!

[outerlimits]

according to the rulebook, the chrono station IS considered part of the course of fire, so all safety rules apply.

in scenario 1, it's a bit dicey. the course of fire starts with "make ready". since in your example all the CRO did was tell the shooter to draw the gun and put it on the table, to me that started the COF, so i'd say he's gone.

in #2-4, since the CRO is a competitor, he's gone.

in scenario #5, if the CRO made the "range is clear command", the shooter is off the hook assuming he did not pick up the weapon. if the COF is not finished (i.e. no range is clear command), then i'd have to say he's gone.

just an educated guess on my part.

[CSEMARTIN]

Just out of curiosity, what happens if the chrono guy is injured if a competitor's ammo is double-charged? Is the competitor liable? How do you know the ammo wasn't switched by accident? If that were the case, would the chrono guy be liable for damage done to the gun? How do you prove it? How many lawyers will it take?

All joking aside, I still can't believe there are people out there willing to work the chrono stage and shoot other people's reloads.

[Sarge]

Just more guesses here. I have been wrong before because I read too much into the rule book. Now I tend to go by the letter of the law. I don't think being told to get your gun out and lay it on the table constitutes "make ready". Make ready means make ready. Don't pick it up and no DQ.

But then again the rulebook says:

44. The Chrono Officer is the CRO for the chronograph stage and issues range

commands appropriate to the requirements of the Chrono Station.

To add another twist who tells the chrono guy to make ready? ULSC?

I am like Grumpy. This is gonna be a good one!

Edited September 19, 2010 by Sarge

[Singlestack]

When the Chrono Officer is being the Chrono Officer, he is match official, not a competitor and therefore can not be DQ'ed from the match.

[GrumpyOne]

When the Chrono Officer is being the Chrono Officer, he is match official, not a competitor and therefore can not be DQ'ed from the match.

True, and hasn't he usually already shot (on the day before?). I thought I read somewhere though, that even if you have already shot, and you drop your weapon and pick it up (say you are walking around on the second day of the shoot, wearing your weapon) you are DQ'd...Is that right? But, in the same respect, if the Chrono Officer drops the gun, and then picks it up, at that point, he may be the Chrono guy, but is he also the RO? If not, then shouldn't he DQ'd for picking up a dropped weapon, since he isn't the RO? It does state "a Range Officer", and I guess the Chrono officer is a "Range Officer", but is he "THE" range officer at that time (is he wearing two hats?)

10.5.14 Retrieving a dropped firearm. Dropped firearms

must always be retrieved by a Range Officer who

will, after checking and/or clearing the firearm,

place it directly into the competitor’s gun case, gun

bag or holster. Dropping an unloaded firearm or

causing it to fall outside of a course of fire is not an

infraction, however, a competitor who retrieves a

dropped firearm will receive a match disqualification.

After re-reading this several times, I noted the above in bold, "a competitor who retrieves"...The Chrono officer is not a competitor, so he should be able to pick up the weapon...or should he?

Edited September 19, 2010 by GrumpyOne

[John Baier]

Let's say that the chrono officer, is also a competitor who shot during the staff match. At the chronograph station the following happens:

Scenario 1: Chrono officer asks competitor to draw the gun and put it on the table. In the process of drawing the gun, the competitor loses control of gun and it falls to the ground. Is the competitor DQ'd for a dropped gun during a CoF? Or is this just a regular dropped gun situation and the chrono officer can pick up the gun for the competitor?

Scenario 2: Chrono officer asks competitor to draw the gun and put it on the table. In the process of picking up the gun from the table, the chrono officer loses control of gun and it falls to the ground. Is the chrono officer DQ'd for a dropped gun during a CoF? Or is this a regular dropped gun situation, but it'll have to be another RO who picks the gun up?

Scenario 3: Chrono officer is loading the gun, or shooting the gun, and loses control, and the loaded gun falls to the ground, the table, or the chrono officer's lap. Is the chrono officer DQ'd for a dropped gun during a CoF? Or is this a regular dropped gun situation, but it'll have to be another RO who picks the gun up?

Scenario 4: Chrono officer put in an empty magazine into the gun, and drops the gun as he is trying to fit the gun into the measuring box. Is the chrono officer DQ'd for a dropped gun during a CoF? Or is this a regular dropped gun situation, but it'll have to be another RO who picks the gun up?

Scenario 5: Chrono officer is done testing the gun, lays the gun on the table, and asks the competitor to re-holster the gun. In the process of picking up the gun, or re-holstering, the competitor loses control of the gun and it falls to the ground. Is the competitor DQ'd for a dropped gun during a CoF?

[A couple minor edits for the missing "put it on the table" in Scenario 1 and 2; and added "loading or shooting the gun" is Scenario 3.]

S1 - Yes

S2 - No, he is the RO and can pick gun up

S3 - No same as above

S4 - No same as above

S5 - Yes

[Skydiver]

In a Level I run and gun stage with traveling RO's, the CRO's weapon pops out of his holster while running behind the shooter with the timer.

When the competitor is done shooting and "Range is Clear" is declared, can the CRO just go back and pick up his own gun because he is still wearing the CRO hat because scoring is not yet done? If scoring is done, and then the CRO goes and picks up his own gun. Is he still wearing the CRO hat at that point in time or did he revert back to competitor?

If the CRO is on deck, and the timer has been handed off to somebody else, and his gun falls. Is he wearing the CRO hat or the competitor hat?

[Field]

what if the chrono gets shot on accident and there is no replacement?

what if....someones gun Xplodes.....at the chrono station.

what if....someone's ammo chrono's at 250pf? Would it then be 'MEGA' Power Factor???

There is a certain pistol that fires 3 round burst 9mm, i bet that would confuse a chrono quite a bit.

Edited September 19, 2010 by Field

[John Baier]

In a Level I run and gun stage with traveling RO's, the CRO's weapon pops out of his holster while running behind the shooter with the timer.

When the competitor is done shooting and "Range is Clear" is declared, can the CRO just go back and pick up his own gun because he is still wearing the CRO hat because scoring is not yet done? If scoring is done, and then the CRO goes and picks up his own gun. Is he still wearing the CRO hat at that point in time or did he revert back to competitor?

If the CRO is on deck, and the timer has been handed off to somebody else, and his gun falls. Is he wearing the CRO hat or the competitor hat?

If the gun pops out of the RO's holster while running the shooter, then the RO would have to stop the COF. The gun is considered hot and area would have to be cleared. Of course, the competitor would be issued a Re-shoot.

Who ever is running the timer or score keeping is acting as a match official. If the CRO's gun drops, he should have the assting RO retrieve the gun. If there is no one else available, then yes the CRO could retrieve his gun. He would have to follow all safety procedures. Like clearing the area in front of the muzzle, etc...

Edited September 19, 2010 by John Baier

[John Baier]

what if the chrono gets shot on accident and there is no replacement?

what if....someones gun Xplodes.....at the chrono station.

what if....someone's ammo chrono's at 250pf? Would it then be 'MEGA' Power Factor???

There is a certain pistol that fires 3 round burst 9mm, i bet that would confuse a chrono quite a bit.

These are all covered in the rulebook.

[Field]

sheesh all this talk about the chrono and then the chrono stage gets canceled because the chrono wasnt working

[twodownzero]

If there is no one else available, then yes the CRO could retrieve his gun. He would have to follow all safety procedures. Like clearing the area in front of the muzzle, etc...

There is never a situation in which no one else is available or at least there shouldn't be. And no person, CRO or not, can pick up his own dropped gun.

When a match official drops a gun, he is not a match official for the purpose of picking it up. If he picks it up, he is DQed under 10.5.1 for unsafe gun handling.

The rules don't have any leeway for this and it's not a discretionary call.

Edited September 20, 2010 by twodownzero

[Singlestack]

When a match official drops a gun, he is not a match official for the purpose of picking it up.

I'm not saying he should pick it up but I have never read this rule.

[mhs]

When a match official drops a gun, he is not a match official for the purpose of picking it up.

I'm not saying he should pick it up but I have never read this rule.

NROI Rulings

Title: Dropped gun

Created: 7/07/09

Updated: 7/14/09

Effective: 7/14/09

Rule number: 10.5.14

Applies to: Pistol

Ruling authority: Director NROI

Status: Released

Question

I am in a squad of shooters that RO themselves, we all take turns ROing. While acting as the RO, I drop my unloaded handgun, should/can I pick it up?

Ruling

Assigned RO's should not have a handgun on while running competitors, this usually occurs in the scenario you state and mostly at local matches. Should someone acting as the RO, drop their unloaded handgun while doing so, should NOT retrieve their own handgun, they should seek someone else in the squad to do so. Once a gun is dropped, the individual who dropped it, becomes no different than a competitor and falls under 10.5.14 and 7.23.

[Singlestack]

Damn it!

I always forget to check the rulings.

Thanks for pointing that out.

[mactiger]

What if: A frog had wings?

Troy

Edited September 21, 2010 by mactiger

[Corey]

What if: A frog had wings?

Troy

then he wouldn't bump his ass on the ground when he hops

[mactiger]

Exactly!

Winner!

Troy