Legal or Not?

[JThompson]

I don't understand the issue with calibration. If the targets are painted between shooters it should be easy to tell where the calibration shot hits. The RM, taking his time, should be able to hit the calibration zone. There's always a chance that the popper will be hit high, but there's always a chance of that in any calibration. There are rules to deal with it.

Yes they are painted or should be... Now what if the RM shoots it in the same place as the shooter... if he can't see the hit, did he hit it? Do we go by sound? Okay he hit it, he must have hit it in the same spot as the shooter, so it fails?

You can't touch or otherwise disturb the target in between the shooter and the RM either...

JT

[G-ManBart]

Sometimes stage designers try too hard to come up with stuff

If the calibration circle isn't visible, I don't see how it can be legal. R,

[ChuckS]

Sometimes stage designers try too hard to come up with stuff

If the calibration circle isn't visible, I don't see how it can be legal. R,

I really don't care for that sort of target presentation either but the calibration is easy: move the friggin soft cover out of the way, calibrate from the appropriate shooting position and move the softcover back.

Edited August 13, 2010 by ChuckS

[vluc]

I indicated the black landscaping paper as the soft cover for my stage. It's been used at a number of local matches over the last handful of years.

Edited August 13, 2010 by vluc

[mhs]

I don't understand the issue with calibration. If the targets are painted between shooters it should be easy to tell where the calibration shot hits. The RM, taking his time, should be able to hit the calibration zone. There's always a chance that the popper will be hit high, but there's always a chance of that in any calibration. There are rules to deal with it.

Yes they are painted or should be... Now what if the RM shoots it in the same place as the shooter... if he can't see the hit, did he hit it? Do we go by sound? Okay he hit it, he must have hit it in the same spot as the shooter, so it fails?

You can't touch or otherwise disturb the target in between the shooter and the RM either...

JT

You could bring up the same issues with any calibration shot. If the competitor hit the calibration zone, there is always a chance that the RM will hit the same place. If it's a distant popper, will the RM be able to see the hit?

If you hear the hit, the target/stand was disturbed. If there is no new hit in the calibration zone, and the popper is standing, REF.

[JThompson]

I indicated the black landscaping paper as the soft cover for my stage. It's been used at a number of local matches over th elast handful of years.

As long as you CAN see through it, you should be fine. The problem is when you call something soft cover and you can't see through it. As far as the classifier goes, I think we need to specify what material is being used or toss it.

[vluc]

I indicated the black landscaping paper as the soft cover for my stage. It's been used at a number of local matches over th elast handful of years.

As long as you CAN see through it, you should be fine. The problem is when you call something soft cover and you can't see through it. As far as the classifier goes, I think we need to specify what material is being used or toss it.

For a classifier that is an absolute. How do you have consistency without it? I chose the black paper because it is thin enough to see an outline, and given that part of the targets were visible, you could approximate where the areas are.

We've seen that with paper targets that have the "upper A/B zone" exposed and the "lower scoring areas" covered. in non-PC speak, the heads were seen but the body was not.

[CHA-LEE]

I don't think that it would be legal because it would be very hard to keep the shooting experience the same from one shooter to the next. For example, the first guy to shoot that stage would have a very different visual representation of "Where" to aim through the soft cover verses the last guy in the squad. The last guy in the squad could use the holes in the soft cover as a reference point for aiming, which would be an advantage that the first guy didn't have.

So unless the soft cover was replaced for every shooter creating an equal shooting experience it wouldn't be an equal experience for all shooter making it illegal.

[Joe4d]

Sometimes stage designers try too hard to come up with stuff

If the calibration circle isn't visible, I don't see how it can be legal. R,

I really don't care for that sort of target presentation either but the calibration is easy: move the friggin soft cover out of the way, calibrate from the appropriate shooting position and move the softcover back.

Actually not so easy, passing through the soft cover will slow the bullet down, moving the soft cover changes the impact velocity. So calibration ammo identical to mine would hit harder,

It would be very hard to acurately score REF's,

[JThompson]

I don't think that it would be legal because it would be very hard to keep the shooting experience the same from one shooter to the next. For example, the first guy to shoot that stage would have a very different visual representation of "Where" to aim through the soft cover verses the last guy in the squad. The last guy in the squad could use the holes in the soft cover as a reference point for aiming, which would be an advantage that the first guy didn't have.

So unless the soft cover was replaced for every shooter creating an equal shooting experience it wouldn't be an equal experience for all shooter making it illegal.

While that could be a potential issue, it's not the primary concern with this one Cha... The RO should take care to replace the soft cover as the would any other thing such as targets. You do have a point though and it would bear watching.

JT

[JThompson]

Sometimes stage designers try too hard to come up with stuff

If the calibration circle isn't visible, I don't see how it can be legal. R,

I really don't care for that sort of target presentation either but the calibration is easy: move the friggin soft cover out of the way, calibrate from the appropriate shooting position and move the softcover back.

Actually not so easy, passing through the soft cover will slow the bullet down, moving the soft cover changes the impact velocity. So calibration ammo identical to mine would hit harder,

It would be very hard to acurately score REF's,

Very nice Joe...

[Gary Stevens]

Sorry been to the range. The rule says that a minimum of 50 percent of the calibration zone be available from somewhere on the stage. I cannot hit the popper above the calibration zone or it is an automatic reshoot. The rule doesn't say anything about moving hardcover, or softcover for that matter.

I have to see half of the calibration zone as the RM or I can't calibrate the popper.

Gary

[Chuck Anderson]

So what if we change the Coreplast soft cover to snow fence. They are still covered completely but easily visible. Or if you want to argue that snow fence has enough holes that it's not covering 50%, then we use Saran Wrap, nice and clear, as soft cover. Is the stage legal now?

I think it's a bit of a stretch to say that the calibration circle is not available since it's behind soft cover. I've seen several stages setup with soft cover completely obscuring the targets. You can see through enough to tell where the target is, but it's still obscured.

[JThompson]

Sorry been to the range. The rule says that a minimum of 50 percent of the calibration zone be available from somewhere on the stage. I cannot hit the popper above the calibration zone or it is an automatic reshoot. The rule doesn't say anything about moving hardcover, or softcover for that matter.

I have to see half of the calibration zone as the RM or I can't calibrate the popper.

Gary

I don't think anyone wants to argue with your Gary... Hell, I will.

It says "available" not "visible" the complete popper is available. It's also "soft cover" so I don't think the 50% rule comes into play. The core of the issue is that you cannot use something opaque and call it soft cover without applying HC rules to it. Ergo 50% calibration available. The other big point and the one which applies more than any other is that if the RM can't "see" the calibration zone he can not properly calibrate the popper.(Which you touched on as well)

I ran into this at a match with the same presentation I showed in the first post. I said the presentation was illegal. There was a rather lengthy debate about it in which the rules of "soft cover" were applied and really, there was no reason in the rules to say that this presentation was illegal.At first I thought about the 50% rule, but that rule is not applicable to soft cover. After some more thought I decided if I could not see the calibration zone, neither can the RM. If the RM can't see it then how will he calibrate it?

Neither of the parties were willing to concede to the others view so I said let's run it by John. He came back and said, it's legal to have soft cover covering most of the target (over and around) but if you cannot see through it it is not legal because it can not be calibrated. Bingo... So what I have come up with on my own is that if you want to use soft cover that can not be seen through, you need to apply the 50% rule, so an RM can take the shot. This is moot if the target is only "obscured" there's that word again (meaning, "in this case" that you can still see it through the cover).

JT

Edited August 13, 2010 by JThompson

[Gary Stevens]

As long as I can see the defined (rulebook) calibration zone, even poorly, I don't care. However, giving me just the area above the calibration zone or just the area below the calibration zone just won't get it.

[JThompson]

As long as I can see the defined (rulebook) calibration zone, even poorly, I don't care. However, giving me just the area above the calibration zone or just the area below the calibration zone just won't get it.

I agree...

[mhs]

Actually not so easy, passing through the soft cover will slow the bullet down, moving the soft cover changes the impact velocity. So calibration ammo identical to mine would hit harder,

It would be very hard to acurately score REF's,

Very nice Joe...

How do you calibrate through snow fence soft cover? If the first shooter on a stage with new snow fence has his bullet go through the solid part of the fence, leaving a nicely centered hole, and not take the popper down, how will you calibrate? By the reasoning above if the RM fails to get a bullet through the same amount of plastic it's REF.

[GrumpyOne]

Here is the complete 4.3.1.5 from the 2010 rulebook. The bold is mine.

4.3.1.5 Scoring metal targets must be shot and fall or overturn to score. Scoring poppers which fail to fall when hit are subject to the provisions of Appendix C1, 6 & 7. Scoring metal targets which a Range Officer deems to have fallen or overturned due to a shot on the supporting apparatus or prematurely fallen or moved for any reason will be treated as range equipment failure. (See Rule 4.6.1). All Poppers shall follow the guidelines below:

1. That a minimum of 50% of the calibration zone be available at some point in the COF.

2. That the calibration will be done from a point on the COF where the calibration zone is available, closest to where the contested shot was fired.

It being soft cover, they (the calibration zones) are available. No where does it state that the calibrations zones must be "seen" to be deemed available (other than to a RM for calibration purposes). What happens then if no one challenges the calibration of the popper?

Edited August 13, 2010 by GrumpyOne

[Skydiver]

So for the classifier CM99-60, if something opaque like black tarp is used as soft cover, it is an illegal stage, but if it was snow fence or camo netting then it's legal?

(The notes for the classifier didn't specify material to be used, only it's dimensions and how targets are to be presented.)

[Gary Stevens]

It would be a real trick to have it available to the RM for calibration, but not to the shooter for normal shooting. Available means to be able to shoot at it. If the shooter wants to take a shot at a portion of the popper above the calibration zone to gain a competitive advantage, then that is great. However, the face remains, 50 percent of the calibration zone must be available to shoot at somewhere on that stage.

[Gary Stevens]

So for the classifier CM99-60, if something opaque like black tarp is used as soft cover, it is an illegal stage, but if it was snow fence or camo netting then it's legal?

(The notes for the classifier didn't specify material to be used, only it's dimensions and how targets are to be presented.)

If it is designated softcover, and I can see the calibration zone, I believe it is good to go.

[Skydiver]

It would be a real trick to have it available to the RM for calibration, but not to the shooter for normal shooting. Available means to be able to shoot at it. If the shooter wants to take a shot at a portion of the popper above the calibration zone to gain a competitive advantage, then that is great. However, the face remains, 50 percent of the calibration zone must be available to shoot at somewhere on that stage.

What would make that trick even harder is that the calibration shot must be done as close as possible from the point that the shooter took his shot but where 50% of the calibration zone is available. What if the 50% is visible only from the other end of the shooting area over 50 feet away from where the shooter shot?

4.3.1.5: ...

2. That the calibration will be done from a point on the COF where the calibration zone is available, closest to where the contested shot was fired.

Sounds completely unfair to do the calibration shot from that point, but that's the rules as written. (Much like I feel that the heavier weight measured by two scales at chrono must be used because that's what the rule says. I feel that it's suppose to be the heavier bullet weight, but the lighter gun weight.)

[JThompson]

So for the classifier CM99-60, if something opaque like black tarp is used as soft cover, it is an illegal stage, but if it was snow fence or camo netting then it's legal?

(The notes for the classifier didn't specify material to be used, only it's dimensions and how targets are to be presented.)

Right now it doesn't specify what type of material can be used. In my opinion, that needs to be written in. Without it you will not have consistency.

Yes, I think if you used something opaque, the stage would be illegal.

JT

Edited August 13, 2010 by JThompson

[mhs]

This issue is clearly addressed in 4.1.4.2: "Targets obscured by soft cover must either be visible through the soft cover or a portion of the affected target(s) must be visible from around or over the soft cover."

All of you arguing the "legality" of the presentation are really arguing whether you think it's a good stage design, and easy to RM. Why not leave that decision to the RM of the match? Let him decide if he's comfortable hitting the calibration zone as available to the competitors.

[Gary Stevens]

That is not my argument. My position is there has to be 50 percent of the calibration zone available from somewhere on that stage. I don't think it is good stage design or bad. My position is that it is legal or it is not.

Gary

Edited August 13, 2010 by Gary Stevens