Have a crack at this one..

[Flexmoney]

All this tortured thinking does not change the fact that the match is done.

We aren't talking about the match. Nor, criticizing the staff. It was just an example.

This, being a discussion about the rules, we should talk about apples and oranges. (Especially since it was my mistake to include all the fruit in salad in the opening post.)

[George Jones]

All this tortured thinking does not change the fact that the match is done.

We aren't talking about the match. Nor, criticizing the staff. It was just an example.

This is just a discussion about the rules. There is nothing wrong with talking about apples and oranges. (It was my mistake to include all the fruit in salad in the opening post.)

If you present a scenario which involves action of the "virtual" staff, then the actions of said virtual staff are part of the discussion.

The rules are supposed to be enforced correctly by the staff. If that fails somehow and affects the shooter, those failures are part of the necessary information, since they are/were part of the problem in the first place. You can't ignore those actions - they are part of the scenario and the solution.

And I don't much care for fruit salad in my beer either!

[FLL1911]

There are 2 unrelated facts:

1. A squib situation that did not warrant a reshoot, in fact got it. It was a RO mistake, but it is now done;

2. In an independent scenario, the score sheet was lost / misplaced;

If we analyze the rules with this in mind, it looks pretty much straight forward. Rule 9.7 deals with score sheet, and 5.7 deals with malfunctions – Competitor’s equipment.

Rule 9.7.6 is related to the reshoot due to an incomplete / missing score sheet. The text -“In the event that a reshoot is not possible or permissible for any reason..” cannot be used related to the squib, because that reshoot already happened, so it can’t be denied again.

The “not possible”, is to handle situations like: the shooter already left the range; the stages were taken down, etc. or other reasons that would prevent the reshoot to actually take place. The “permissible” would handle situations like a “DQ” after the “squib reshoot”.

The reshoot should not be granted due to the squib, but it happened, but the reshoot due to missing score should be granted.

[GForceLizard]

Let's change it and assume it was caught during the match. You know the score has been lost. Which rule are you going to follow? No reshoot because of the squib and zero the score 5.7.7.1? Or reshoot because the score was not recorded 9.7.7? If you could, you should give the reshoot when the score is lost. If you shot a stage w/o any issues you are not entitled to a reshoot, but the lost score would get you one.

[George Jones]

Let's change it and assume it was caught during the match. You know the score has been lost. Which rule are you going to follow? No reshoot because of the squib and zero the score 5.7.7.1? Or reshoot because the score was not recorded 9.7.7? If you could, you should give the reshoot when the score is lost. If you shot a stage w/o any issues you are not entitled to a reshoot, but the lost score would get you one.

Lost (or incomplete) scoresheet? Reshoot!

A zero score is not an option under 5.7.7 - As long as the shooter is available to reshoot the stage (and the stage is also still standing and available), it can only happen as a result of the time/score which is recorded on a valid scoresheet that Stats has entered in EzWinScore.

[FLL1911]

You follow both rules:

1) you do not grant a reshoot due to the squib;

2) (in a separate event) you grant a reshoot due to the score sheet missing;

[GrumpyOne]

Guys,

The staff screwed up.

The shooter shot the stage and an official and complete scoresheet went to Stats. (9.7.7 does not apply)

You can't undo a completed stage and a complete scoresheet except within the confines of 9.7.4 or arbitration.

Done deal. The shooter caught a break. The staff needs to go to school.

They lost the score sheet. Since they cannot give him his squib run score because they lost it he gets a break and a reshoot. The shooter shouldn't have their score reduced because the staff lost his score.

They did not lose the score sheet, they lost the time to put on his score sheet.

[FLL1911]

Under the rules, lost, incomplete or missing time score sheets are treated the same way regarding reshoot.

[Gary Stevens]

Getting in late to the party, even with a squib the shooter is entitled to have his targets scored and his time recorded up to the point of the squib. Had that been done, the shooter would be finished at that point.

However, the time part of the equation was missing. A re-shoot at that point is required end of story.

Mistakes happen, regardless of how hard we try to prevent them. Learn from them and move on.

Gary

[bgary]

Getting in late to the party, even with a squib the shooter is entitled to have his targets scored and his time recorded up to the point of the squib. Had that been done, the shooter would be finished at that point.

However, the time part of the equation was missing. A re-shoot at that point is required end of story.

<drift> What if the hits were recorded, and the misses/FTEs were sufficient to guarantee that the shooter would end up with a "zero" for the stage, no matter what the time was. Let's say the squib was on the second shot into a 32-round course, and would have ended up with 1 Alpha, 31 Mikes and 15 FTEs.

Still a reshoot if the time is missing from the scorecard? The shooter's score on the stage can be "definitively determined" without the time...

</drift>

Edited August 12, 2010 by jakers

[JThompson]

I'm with George and Gary on this one... for our purpose you can drop the whole "squib" part of the discussion. You can not enter a score be it a zero or otherwise without a valid scoresheet. Since the first sheet was incomplete it can not be entered even if you have "Rain-man" available to say it would be a zero no matter what. Without a "complete" and "accurate" scoresheet there is no option, but a reshoot.

Squib: You can not say that because a squib happened a shooter receives a zero score. That would take a rules change. I don't think because someone had a squib they should get a zero. I shot a stage recently where I did have a good run and it was on the last target of a course that I had a squib... should I then get a zero for that course... No! Should the RO/Stats calculate whether you had zeroed the stage and then any subsquent screw-up are null? No!

Complete and accurate scoresheet or it's a reshoot unless a DQ has happened.

9.7.5 If a score sheet is found to have insufficient or excess entries, or if the

time has not been recorded on the score sheet, the competitor will be

required to reshoot the course of fire.

Did they screw up by giving him a reshoot for the squib? Yes, but he would have been required to reshoot anyway because of the incomplete scoresheet.

I think you guys are over thinking this one......

JT

Edited August 12, 2010 by JThompson

[Gary Stevens]

Getting in late to the party, even with a squib the shooter is entitled to have his targets scored and his time recorded up to the point of the squib. Had that been done, the shooter would be finished at that point.

However, the time part of the equation was missing. A re-shoot at that point is required end of story.

<drift> What if the hits were recorded, and the misses/FTEs were sufficient to guarantee that the shooter would end up with a "zero" for the stage, no matter what the time was. Let's say the squib was on the second shot into a 32-round course, and would have ended up with 1 Alpha, 31 Mikes and 15 FTEs.

Still a reshoot if the time is missing from the scorecard? The shooter's score on the stage can be "definitively determined" without the time...

</drift>

Let me answer it with a scenario. Shooter Joe Dropshot is running my stage and I am the RO. True to his name, he has dropped at least one, if not two shots on every target. Half way through the stage he has more penalties that he can overcome and will zero the stage despite his best efforts. With one target to go, I overtake him (unlikely as that might be), run into him, and knock him down. The rule says Joe is entitles to a reshoot, if he so desires (the only optional reshoot by the way). However, I look at his previous targets and say "Sorry Joe you would normally be entitled to a reshoot, but I see that you are going to zero this stage despite anything you would do anyway. So sorry about your luck, have a good day, bye-bye, go away."

Regardless of the fact that Joe would zero the stage, or would not zero the stage, he is entitled to a reshoot, by rule, if he so desires one.

So to answer your question directly, yes the squib guy gets a reshoot

Gary

Edited August 12, 2010 by Flexmoney
to fix quote tags

[moverfive]

This thread is a classic thread where everyone just needs to look at the rules from a 10,000 ft level on their initial review.

It should be clear to everyone now that subset rules 5.7.7.1 and .2 only pertain to its primary rule - basically those two are the deciding points if a reshoot is warranted due to this very specific stoppage by the RO, and not to any other unrelated event.

We just need to stop and look at the rule(s) and get an understand of WHAT is being said in them. That is why I said in my first post, this one isn't that difficult as the two subset rules obviously only relate to a squib, 5.7.7. Again, that should be clear to everyone after Gary's clarification.

Just take this lesson, remember it, and apply it to the next situation - get an understanding of the rule (and its subsets if that is the case), the rule's intent, and then apply a common sense decision/ruling with that information. It isn't uncommon for folks to read way too much into some rules and/or take a too literal meaning of portions of the wording within a rule, out of context if you will......because they really did ask the question beforehand - WHAT is this rule actually saying.

[Flexmoney]

This thread is a classic thread where everyone just needs to look at the rules from a 10,000 ft level on their initial review.

- get an understanding of the rule (and its subsets if that is the case), the rule's intent, and then apply a common sense decision/ruling with that information.

- WHAT is this rule actually saying.

Which is exactly why I put this in the opening post:

Before deciding on your call, please read all the rules.

All too often...and moreso here lately than we ever used to see...we see folks make up their mind, then start cherry picking rules to support their position.

It's probably best if we start with an open mind. Then discuss (that is why this forum is here).

[Flexmoney]

Variation on the theme.

- Shooter has a squib. Targets are scored. Score sheet is complete and correct.

- Shooter returns to the stage with a replacement gun. He tells the (different) RO he is ready for his reshoot. It's a local match, rotating RO's (or whatever)...so they shooter ends up reshooting.

- Now you have two complete score sheets for that shooter on that stage.

Which do you use?

[eta] Assume no cheating involved.

Edited August 13, 2010 by Flexmoney

[JThompson]

Variation on the theme.

- Shooter has a squib. Targets are scored. Score sheet is complete and correct.

- Shooter returns to the stage with a replacement gun. He tells the (different) RO he is ready for his reshoot. It's a local match, rotating RO's (or whatever)...so they shooter ends up reshooting.

- Now you have two complete score sheets for that shooter on that stage.

Which do you use?

The stats person would find that they already have a score for the competitor and that would flag it. At that point stats would get in touch with the "acting RM" and he would talk to the shooter and both ROs. After hearing the story, the RM determines that a reshoot was not in order and that the first score entered will stand. If it was determined that the shooter was trying to pull a fast one, he might even be disqualified under the provisions of 10.6

Rules 5.7.7.1 and possibly 10.6.1

Edited August 12, 2010 by JThompson

[Schutzenmeister]

Variation on the theme.

- Shooter has a squib. Targets are scored. Score sheet is complete and correct.

- Shooter returns to the stage with a replacement gun. He tells the (different) RO he is ready for his reshoot. It's a local match, rotating RO's (or whatever)...so they shooter ends up reshooting.

- Now you have two complete score sheets for that shooter on that stage.

Which do you use?

Well, Flex ... Unless you left out some pertinent piece of information here ... I'd say 10.6.1. DQ for unsportsmanlike conduct. It seems clear to me ths shooter is trying to pull a fast one, contrary to the rules, for the sole purpose of improving his standing in the match.

[StraightUp_OG]

Neither. The shooter should be DQ'd for Un-sportsman like conduct for lying to the second RO and taking advantage of the fact that the new RO had no visibility into the first scored run.

ETA: Too late.

:-)

Edited August 12, 2010 by StraightUp_OG

[JThompson]

Hmmm 10.6 sub GTFOMR?

Cookie to the first to figure it out....

Edited August 12, 2010 by JThompson

[Skydiver]

I'll play: Get The Frak Off My Range?

Edited August 12, 2010 by Skydiver

[JThompson]

I'll play: Get The Frak Off My Range?

[Flexmoney]

Tough crowd.

Well, Flex ... Unless you left out some pertinent piece of information here ...

Apparently, I did.

Lets say the shooter isn't a cheater. I guess I shouldn't have assumed that was a given.

(I brought up this question because a number of people seemed to suggest that once a reshoot happened...the shooter got the reshoot.)

[JThompson]

Tough crowd.

Lets say the shooter isn't a cheater. (I guess I should have assumed that was a given.)

Think I had that covered above Kyle...

JT

Edited August 12, 2010 by JThompson

[SLM]

Lets not ASSume the guy was trying to cheat. There are a bunch of people who play this game that aren't RO's, etc and don't know all the fine points of the rules. This I know because it happened at a match I shot a couple weeks ago. Guy had a squib on his second or third shot. He thought he'd be allowed to clear it and reshoot the stage. He said that's what happened "Last weekend when I had one".

So here was a guy who had been given a reshoot when he had a squib and thought that was normal procedure. He just didn't know.

Now when the guy in Flex's scenario showed up to reshoot the stage I'd think the RO currently working the stage would ask why he was reshooting it, who issued the reshoot, etc. At that point the person in question would either reply truthfully and be informed that no, s/he doesn't get a reshoot for a squib or they'd lie, Um, uh, they didn't record my time or something to that effect. That I would think would be discovered and then you could apply a 10.6 DQ.

My point is, don't just necessarily think the shooter is trying to cheat. They just might not know the rules.

[Schutzenmeister]

Tough crowd.

Well, Flex ... Unless you left out some pertinent piece of information here ...

Apparently, I did.

Lets say the shooter isn't a cheater. I guess I shouldn't have assumed that was a given.

[...]

No ... He is. His actions speak far more loudly than his possible thought processes. At a very MINIMUM he should have notified the RO on the second run of what was going on whereby the RO should have denied the attempt. Also ... Did the RM approve the change in gun? If so, did the shooter mention he was going to reshoot the "squib" stage?

Too many chances for the shooter to come clean about his intentions. He was cheating ... His actions say it all too clearly.

And please stop adding new information you should have included in the first place, OK? It makes it appear you're shopping for a desired outcome. Sorry ...