Drop Turner Q

[old506]

What is the correct call? I engaged with two shots a drop turner that was hidden at rest (No Penalty Mike). I shot it while it was in motion but I knew that it was close to being hidden when I was pulling the trigger but I took the shots anyway (what did I have to lose, right?). When the RO scored it we looked at the target and it had at least a 6" slash that started in the "C" Zone and ended in the "A" zone. I thought that it would be scored an Alpha. But then I looked and there was another 6" slash in a no-shoot that covered the lower 3rd of the target.

I must have shot the target just as it came to rest (hidden). Probably two of the better pistol shots I have made, come to think about it, as I didn't even touch the props on either shot, just the cardboard. They weren't close either.

Anyway, it was scored a no penalty mike, as if I didn't touch the cardboard on either shot. Why, I don't know, maybe this was the right call? I thought that it should be scored as an Alpha and a penalty for the no-shoot? I am not an RO and I didn't want to put up a fuss as it was no big deal to me but would like to have an idea in the future.

[ima45dv8]

9.5.9 Hits upon scoring or no-shoot paper targets, must completely pass through the target to be considered a valid hit and count for score or penalty.

[AlamoShooter]

The Rule book can be cool , if you take the time to read and understand it. An RO is supposed to know the rules =it is only ....Only the rules that are in the book. no secrets.

Knowledge is Power = its sets us free Next time you will know the penetration rule and end up feeling better on the drive home

Free to play the game on equal ground.

What you lost was a better score by taking shots that added to the clock. Some stages have targets that will give you a worst score by shooting at them. = I don't like it , that just the way some stages end up.

If I have to make a long drive to attend a match and find that a drop-turn target can be skipped and end up with a better score, I may make the shot any way , just for the learning curve improvement. days latter / hours latter no one cares = its the best scores on the stage that is remembered

[mactiger]

What is the correct call? I engaged with two shots a drop turner that was hidden at rest (No Penalty Mike). I shot it while it was in motion but I knew that it was close to being hidden when I was pulling the trigger but I took the shots anyway (what did I have to lose, right?). When the RO scored it we looked at the target and it had at least a 6" slash that started in the "C" Zone and ended in the "A" zone. I thought that it would be scored an Alpha. But then I looked and there was another 6" slash in a no-shoot that covered the lower 3rd of the target.

I must have shot the target just as it came to rest (hidden). Probably two of the better pistol shots I have made, come to think about it, as I didn't even touch the props on either shot, just the cardboard. They weren't close either.

Anyway, it was scored a no penalty mike, as if I didn't touch the cardboard on either shot. Why, I don't know, maybe this was the right call? I thought that it should be scored as an Alpha and a penalty for the no-shoot? I am not an RO and I didn't want to put up a fuss as it was no big deal to me but would like to have an idea in the future.

Those long hits/slashes would count if your bullet penetrated completely through the target somewhere. If they only creased it and didn't penetrate, they don't count. Hard to tell from your description if there was daylight visible through the target or not.

Troy

[old506]

I should have made it clear. Both of them went through the target and made a hole for at least 6" with visible daylight in the slash.

[mhs]

What is the correct call? I engaged with two shots a drop turner that was hidden at rest (No Penalty Mike). I shot it while it was in motion but I knew that it was close to being hidden when I was pulling the trigger but I took the shots anyway (what did I have to lose, right?). When the RO scored it we looked at the target and it had at least a 6" slash that started in the "C" Zone and ended in the "A" zone. I thought that it would be scored an Alpha. But then I looked and there was another 6" slash in a no-shoot that covered the lower 3rd of the target.

I must have shot the target just as it came to rest (hidden). Probably two of the better pistol shots I have made, come to think about it, as I didn't even touch the props on either shot, just the cardboard. They weren't close either.

Anyway, it was scored a no penalty mike, as if I didn't touch the cardboard on either shot. Why, I don't know, maybe this was the right call? I thought that it should be scored as an Alpha and a penalty for the no-shoot? I am not an RO and I didn't want to put up a fuss as it was no big deal to me but would like to have an idea in the future.

Did the slashes completely penetrate the target? Did the bullets go out the back of the target?

[old506]

Did the slashes completely penetrate the target? Did the bullets go out the back of the target?

The slashes completely penetrated the target for about 6". It was pretty much in the center of the target, I missed the prop and I missed the leading edge of the target, it looked like it zipped in to the middle, cut the target right down the middle and then zipped out of the target, obviously the target was about to "disappear". The slash in the target and the no-shoot were nearly identical with the no-shoot a little shorter, it was the 2nd of the two shots. I was shooting a .45 with 200gr SWC so it was obviously not a crease or a skip, it was a canal, like the bullet splitting a playing card on edge.

Frankly, I didn't have a clue either way and with the gash in the no-shoot I was expecting a penalty so I just shut up.

[coldchar]

Alpha, mike, no shoot.

[Sarge]

Alpha, mike, no shoot.

I was thinking Alpha, No penalty Mike, No shoot. Without seeing the target it is hard to be sure.

[coldchar]

George can you chime in here. I remember an interesting explanation on how the rule about penetrating the target came abou?

[George Jones]

George can you chime in here. I remember an interesting explanation on how the rule about penetrating the target came abou?

I suspect you refer to the story of the shooter who had a squib and the bullet did exit the barrel, hit the target (repotedly in the A zone), bounced off and fell to the ground. It was scored an Alpha even though it only made a dent in the cradboard.

Don't you wish this sort of stuff was on film.

I wonder if anyone thought to challenge that shot as sub-minor.

Now, we have to actually make a hole in the target.

[skeeter]

i once RO'd a shooter who's comp came off and made a hole in the target. because i couldn't be sure where the bullet went i gave the guy the hit. then told him that we would have to see if the comp made major or not

[ima45dv8]

Let's say the round penetrated the target making a long tear as described, starting at the C zone and exiting the back of the target somewhere in the A zone. The only visible grease ring that appears to be a strike is in the C zone.

How is it scored?

[mactiger]

Let's say the round penetrated the target making a long tear as described, starting at the C zone and exiting the back of the target somewhere in the A zone. The only visible grease ring that appears to be a strike is in the C zone.

How is it scored?

Highest zone hit, so Alpha.

On scoring the OP's target: Sarge got it right: Alpha, NPM, NS.

Troy

Edited July 29, 2010 by mactiger

[mactiger]

George can you chime in here. I remember an interesting explanation on how the rule about penetrating the target came abou?

I suspect you refer to the story of the shooter who had a squib and the bullet did exit the barrel, hit the target (repotedly in the A zone), bounced off and fell to the ground. It was scored an Alpha even though it only made a dent in the cradboard.

Don't you wish this sort of stuff was on film.

I wonder if anyone thought to challenge that shot as sub-minor.

Now, we have to actually make a hole in the target.

We've also had instances where there was just a crease, no penetration, on a turning target.

Troy

[mhs]

9.5.9 Hits upon scoring or no-shoot paper targets, must completely pass through the target to be considered a valid hit and count for score or penalty.

------------------

I hadn't considered this before: If a bullet hits the front of the target, cuts a slot that is all the way through the target, but then comes out the front, is it considered to have completely passed through? I can imagine this happening with a target that's not perfectly flat.

[AzYooper]

Let's say the round penetrated the target making a long tear as described, starting at the C zone and exiting the back of the target somewhere in the A zone. The only visible grease ring that appears to be a strike is in the C zone.

How is it scored?

Highest zone hit, so Alpha.

On scoring the OP's target: Sarge got it right: Alpha, NPM, NS.

Troy

When the RO's know the most current rule set this is scored properly. I know what it is like after the match wondering if you had been scored properly. The same problem happened to me (my hole was about 4" long). An RO with years of experience told me that a hole longer than 2" does not count. I think that his ruling may have been from some old rule, but since I did not have my rule book with me I did not argue.

I always carry my rule book with me now and I recommend that to all.

[George Jones]

9.5.9 Hits upon scoring or no-shoot paper targets, must completely pass through the target to be considered a valid hit and count for score or penalty.

------------------

I hadn't considered this before: If a bullet hits the front of the target, cuts a slot that is all the way through the target, but then comes out the front, is it considered to have completely passed through? I can imagine this happening with a target that's not perfectly flat.

The rule says the "hit" must pass through, not the bullet. So, if the hit makes a hole in the cardboard, the requirement of the rule has been met.

Sometimes, it just hinges on one word.

[George Jones]

The same problem happened to me (my hole was about 4" long). An RO with years of experience told me that a hole longer than 2" does not count. I think that his ruling may have been from some old rule, but since I did not have my rule book with me I did not argue.

I always carry my rule book with me now and I recommend that to all.

That is a very old rule. Unfortunately, some ROs never keep up with rulebook changes and make calls which they think are correct but are actually not.

If years have passed since initial certification, especially if there have been multiple rulebook revisions since that time, I recommend that ROs should attend another RO seminar as a refresher. It's amazing how much more is to be learned.

[wide45]

Old, old rule was that a bullet hole that was more than 2 diameters, on a target that turned to disappear, was a not scored a hit.

Semi circle on the overlay, was to measure 2 diameters.

Rule 9.12 in 1995 blue book. Gone from the 2001 red book.

Edited July 29, 2010 by wide45

[kevin c]

9.5.9 Hits upon scoring or no-shoot paper targets, must completely pass through the target to be considered a valid hit and count for score or penalty.

------------------

I hadn't considered this before: If a bullet hits the front of the target, cuts a slot that is all the way through the target, but then comes out the front, is it considered to have completely passed through? I can imagine this happening with a target that's not perfectly flat.

The rule says the "hit" must pass through, not the bullet. So, if the hit makes a hole in the cardboard, the requirement of the rule has been met.

Sometimes, it just hinges on one word.

Gee, I don't think I would have interpreted it that way - I would have put money on the bullet having to go through the target.

And doesn't the round have to hit the front of the target first, even if there is a through and through hole in a scoring zone? If the RO can determine from the edges of the hole that the bullet went back to front (definitely a possibility with a turner) wouldn't the hole not count for score?

eta: NOW I know what those lines were for...

Edited July 29, 2010 by kevin c

[George Jones]

And doesn't the round have to hit the front of the target first, even if there is a through and through hole in a scoring zone? If the RO can determine from the edges of the hole that the bullet went back to front (definitely a possibility with a turner) wouldn't the hole not count for score?

That's correct - Rule 9.5.8

[mhs]

Sometimes, it just hinges on one word.

Thanks for clarifying that. I'll try and pay more attention to the words.

[Tom D]

Let's say the round penetrated the target making a long tear as described, starting at the C zone and exiting the back of the target somewhere in the A zone. The only visible grease ring that appears to be a strike is in the C zone.

How is it scored?

Highest zone hit, so Alpha.

On scoring the OP's target: Sarge got it right: Alpha, NPM, NS.

Troy

Troy,

How could there be a NS? Wouldent 4.1.5 prohibit The back as a NS?

4.1.5 Declaring a single, intact target to represent two or more targets by use

of tape, paint or any other means is prohibited.

Tom

[mactiger]

Let's say the round penetrated the target making a long tear as described, starting at the C zone and exiting the back of the target somewhere in the A zone. The only visible grease ring that appears to be a strike is in the C zone.

How is it scored?

Highest zone hit, so Alpha.

On scoring the OP's target: Sarge got it right: Alpha, NPM, NS.

Troy

Troy,

How could there be a NS? Wouldent 4.1.5 prohibit The back as a NS?

4.1.5 Declaring a single, intact target to represent two or more targets by use

of tape, paint or any other means is prohibited.

Tom

Well, from the original post, I think there was a no-shoot overlapping the shoot target, and I got the impression that he hit both of them. But, on this forum, you sometimes don't get a clear picture.

Here's what the OP said: "When the RO scored it we looked at the target and it had at least a 6" slash that started in the "C" Zone and ended in the "A" zone. I thought that it would be scored an Alpha. But then I looked and there was another 6" slash in a no-shoot that covered the lower 3rd of the target."

If it was hit in the back, then no, it's not a no-shoot, but from the description, it sounds like he hit both of 'em in the front, and punched a hole in them.

Troy