Ron Ankeny Posted March 8, 2002 Share Posted March 8, 2002 I wasn't going to bring this up, but the idea of no classifications, shoot for money and screw the cupie dolls has been tried before. Some of you old farts will remember Dr. Robert Burgess, the now defunct National Shooter's League, and our Labor Day weekend match. The shooters would show up, pay their entry fee, and take three runs. The Top 40 would be eligible for the final match. We had the best shooters in the world come to Laramie, Wyoming and ESPN covered the event right up until the whole thing went down the toilet. There are many reasons why the National Shooter's League died, including Doc's stubborn streak, John Bianchi being even more stubborn and then Carter got into the mix and the rest is history. The only lasting thing the NSL did was to get Bianchi to start his own event. The real problem came when we started forming farm clubs in southern Wyoming and Northern Colorado. We applied the same no classification top down strategy to local clubs and it was tough to get shooters to participate. No classification system meant the newbies would have to expend a lot of money and practice for many years before they ever visited the cash table. Without a classification system we couldn't build a viable program. The dog eat dog mentality only worked at the culminating event, and to get enough money to make the Nationals fly meant corporate sponsorship. Enough of that... A no classification "professional" USPSA Match would fly and I think we would all be suprised at the number of people who would shoot in it. However, if the classification system went away at all levels of the USPSA the sport would die. Face it, we are stuck with classes, sand baggers, grand baggers, and all the rest. There is no way to escape those elements and keep the sport alive. That's a shame... (Edited by Ron Ankeny at 1:09 pm on Mar. 8, 2002) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38supPat Posted March 8, 2002 Share Posted March 8, 2002 I'm not so sure you are correct. Remember, during most of the big growth years there were no classes, and since more classes and divisions have been introduced, we have been losing members not gaining. Initially we would lose some...but I suspect it would be most of the whiners the people who really want to excel would stick it out. Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted March 8, 2002 Share Posted March 8, 2002 Pat: You might be right. I am trying to apply a past experience with another event to what I have seen the last couple of years in IPSC and I could be full of crap. I can tell you that around here the guys who shoot the best, work the hardest, and are the most dependable don't bitch about the classification system and would shoot even if there wasn't a system. Now you got me to thinking... I hate that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Thompson Posted March 9, 2002 Share Posted March 9, 2002 Quote: from Ron Ankeny on 4:01 pm on Mar A no classification "professional" USPSA Match would fly and I think we would all be suprised at the number of people who would shoot in it. However, if the classification system went away at all levels of the USPSA the sport would die. Face it, we are stuck with classes, sand baggers, grand baggers, and all the rest. There is no way to escape those elements and keep the sport alive. That's a shame... (Edited by Ron Ankeny at 1:09 pm on Mar. 8, 2002) I agree with that and this: I think were proposing solutions in search of a problem. Do away with the prize table and make the matches all trophy with a drawing for prizes. Will this tick off some pros( a small amount at that)? yes Will it make people like me who've never won their classifcation at a major match(most of us) happy to win at least a plaque for our money and time? IMHO yes. Will trophy match only low match fees increase particiaption? Yes, Not by a huge amount but I know a lot of people who don't shoot big matches because of the cost. Will taking the prize table out of the picture take the away the incentive for grandbagging( one of the solutions in search of a problem)? probably Some will say if we go trophy only the GM "ambasadors" will leave the sport. I think that's bull. For one thing, even though I have a lot of respect for TGO, Jarrett, etc.; I don't pay to shoot a match because they're there. I go to shoot for myself and compete. Second thing is that no one makes a living off the prize table. The pros get their money from sponsorships that were achieved as a result of winning big matches, not what they won at those matches. I think we, the relatively small group of people on this page and anyone else who takes shooting seriously, need to remember that our view of everything is different than that of the average weekend shooter. The average weekend shooter is the backbone of the sport and the reason there is a sport in the first place. We get about 40-60 people at the club I help run. Only about ten take it seriously enough to buy the race rigs etc. But almost everyone looks at the score sheet to see how they did compared to their peers, i.e the people in their own class. (Edited by John Thompson at 2:56 am on Mar. 9, 2002) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38supPat Posted March 9, 2002 Share Posted March 9, 2002 I think the problem we are getting into with this sport is what BE wrote about in "The Degeneration of Sport" Instead of having a sport anymore where the competitors come to test themselves and compete against the best (locally or Nationally) Instead of instilling a sense of drive tio excel, we are encouraging shooters to sit it out at their level. We dumb down the stages (large stages with lots of close easy targets) and matches (Classes, divisions, no cash or prizes..feel good trophies for all) Its like saying "Its ok to be mediocre, in fact heres a trophy for doing just ok." We have to decide if this is a sport or a pastime. If you are happy at the level you are at and don't want to push to improve, fine, come out and have a good time...but you shouldn't expect to be rewarded by it (by trophies or prizes) But why do the people who strive to get to the top have to be punished or denied their due, they worked hard to get where they are, recognition for their accomplishments is only fair. There's not another sport in the world that I have seen that is quite as bad about rewarding excellence. its somehow unfair that the best in the world win s*** for performing. Now we see prize tables that go to draws, or door prizes. If a match gets prizes donated (or purchased) its only right that they go to the ones who earned them. You'll notice that I have never won the Nationals (US or Canada) I have a better chance of winning in Canada but I would rather shoot the US, not because I know I'll walk away with a pile of stuff, but knowing that if I perform I will get something. It drives me to improve, I don't want a consolation prize, or trophy, I want to WIN. Pat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sfinney Posted March 9, 2002 Share Posted March 9, 2002 As an "average" shooter, I say ditto to what Pat just said. If I win a prize, I want to EARN it. Means more that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgary Posted March 9, 2002 Share Posted March 9, 2002 Not sure if this is thread-drift or not, but there's another facet to this thing. Pat talked about the "dumbing down" of the sport, and we've done that to ourselves. One of the ways in which we have done it is to define the Nationals as "just another match". A big one, sure, with lots of people and lots of stages, but... fundamentally, just another match. If it were "truly" a national championships, there would be NO WAY to attend except by winning a slot through your section or an Area match. And, if it were truly going to be a National *championship*, those slots would only go to overall order-of finish... which sort of implies that only GMs and Ms and As-on-the-rise would be at the nationals. But, we haven't done that. The nationals slot process includes awarding slots to D shooters and juniors and super seniors and people who have NO realistic chance of being a national champion in any way other than through their arbitrary sub-category (no aspersions meant; just an observation). And, further, for at least the last several years, you have also been able to get a slot to the Nationals just by getting on a list and plunking down some money. Not sure what the solution is - or even if there is a problem, but... I'd note that our "big match" only partially serves as a championship. Sure, we give the title to the best-of-the-best at the match, but we also give away a lot of other titles. Other sports, you have to *earn* your way into the Nationals; ours, we seem to have made it almost an entitlement. bruce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Thompson Posted March 9, 2002 Share Posted March 9, 2002 "Earn your way to the nationals" That's all well and good but what does it mean to the weekend warrior? Once again were not looking at this from the view of the average "hey honey I'm going to go shooting, be back in a few hours" Joe Shooter. The people who want to take this stuff seriously will be at the nationals anyway. Pat said our sport limits it's memebers(Joe Shooter) by the classifaction system and other sports don't. For one Joe Shooter loves the measure of acheivement provided by the system or atleast wants to compete against his peers. I would not still be in IPSC if when I was C class I had to beat TGO to win anything after forking over $250 plus expenses for the nationals. Two, almost every pro and recreational sport that I know of has the classifcations system i.e. martial arts, golf, bowling, even my summer softball league seperates teams by skill into divisions. If the classifications sytem, easy stages, trophy only matches, and low match fees(big match and small) are so bad then why is the USPSA in decline and the IDPA having passed it up? This despite having stupid rules forced on you and being told how to shoot. (Edited by John Thompson at 1:49 pm on Mar. 9, 2002) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Posted March 9, 2002 Share Posted March 9, 2002 If you make it so that you have to "earn" a slot to the Nationals, you will eventually kill USPSA. It's bad enough that folks have to pay extra for slots they didn't earn, let alone saying you cannot go unless you earn it. USPSA is not big enough to exclude members from the Nationals. I think John's right, there is a reason USPSA membership is declining and IDPA growing. Keep the classification system. Add a "pro" category if yoy want. Lower the match fees. Allow anyone that's a member to attend ANY match. Charge everyone the same fee unless they are shooting as a "pro" for prize money. Distribute any prizes (for non-pro's) by lottery. Stop charging vendors a large amount for a booth at your matches. That will bring shooters to matches & eventually bring more members to USPSA. I firmly believe USPSA is more fun than IDPA. Bruce-If you want to grow the sport, you need to be concerned with Joe Average, not the top 5%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgary Posted March 9, 2002 Share Posted March 9, 2002 Never said I was advocating changing the way slots go out.... I was only observing that a pure, top down, face off against everyone and award the one guy at the top style of competition has ramifications. I think, in fact, that that is the strongest argument *for* the classification system, is that it provides a forum where new people, or people of lesser athletic talent can still have someone at "their level" to compete against, and to get some sort of recognition and reinforcement when they do well against "their" level of competition. At the same time, I'll note that my own personal opinion is that the Nationals should "mean something" - going to the nationals should be more than just writing a check. But I came up through a venue of competition where the only way to get to "the next level" of competition was to win at the previous level. Its a tough challenge - we want to be open to everyone, but we also want the match to have some "prestige"; we want to accomodate all member interests, but also to provide a venue where the best of the best can shine; we want to grow, and also to remain connected to our roots. By the way, for those who say that "USPSA is declining, and IDPA is taking over"... I'd say, they wish ;-) USPSA is the original, it is still the most fun you can have with your clothes on, we are still growing (not as fast as we want to, but...) and we are actively working on improving our processes to make things even better. Keep watching for changes to the Nationals, to the classification system, to our marketing approach, to our services for members and clubs, for other things that directly address member interests, and make us even stronger. bruce (but I'm a little biased ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Posted March 9, 2002 Share Posted March 9, 2002 Bruce, I think one thing that trips you up is that you think of USPSA as a "sport". Most of the folks I know think of it as a "game". You put too much weight into it. Although some people go to matches to "compete" a lot just go to have fun. I'd love to see the numbers that show USPSA is actually growing (excluding foreign and life members). Like I said, I think it's a great game, sport, whatever. But, I've seen a lot of folks leave the sport and head to the IDPA matches down the street. You will not grow if you make USPSA an "exclusive, competitive, sport". Telling folks they can't come to the Nats because it's an "exclusive" event and they didn't "make the cut" will only sour them on USPSA. [RANT MODE ON] If you want prestige, go ahead have a "pro" class. Let them get the prestige. But, whatever you do, DO NOT tell me I cannot go to the Nationals because I'm somehow not "good enough". If you do, I will NOT retain my USPSA membership. I refuse to be a member of an organization that treats it's average members with that level of disrespect. BTW-I've been shooting major matches for 3 years. Been to 3 Nationals (2 Open, 1 Limited). Actually won my class at one Nationals, which I wouldn't have gone to if I had to "earn" a slot. By your logic, I'm not deserving of the class win. I disagree. The prestige should come from placing in the top 16 overall, the top 3 in your class, etc. There should be no prestige involved in getting to the match. [RANT MODE OFF] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgary Posted March 9, 2002 Share Posted March 9, 2002 Slow down, Storm. I think you're reading more into what I said than what I actually said. Either that, or I'm not doing a very good job of stating things. I'm not advocating a position here. I have my own personal opinions, but that is *not* what I've been writing. What I've been attempting to say is that there are a HUGE number of opinions out there about what is good for our sport, and some of them conflict with each other. That makes it very hard to figure out how to make things better. For example: some are vehement about prize tables, some are vehement about low match entry fees. Some are convinced that prizes should be top-down only, some are convinced that prizes should be evenly distributed across all the classes, some are convinced that prizes should be given out by random draw. Some believe we have ruined the sport by having so many divisions, some believe we still need more (eg, Open-10, Unlimited Revolver, etc) Some believe that the classifier system is just fine the way it is, some believe that the classifier system is so broken that it is going to singlhandedly kill our sport. And, germane to this conversation, some believe that the Nationals should be the territory of winners, and some believe it should be the annual shooting festival for anyone who wants to come. I am *not* stating those as positions, either my own or the Board's - what I am saying is that all those positions are *out* there, and it is tough to find the answer that works for everyone. My own *personal* opinion is very much like yours. I think the "average Joe" club shooter is the backbone of our sport - they guy who comes out to the range a couple of times a month, wants to have a fair, fun match to shoot with his friends, and wants to have a way of telling whether he did well in the competition or not. Or, at least, let me make it more personal - that's what *I* want, and I see an awful lot of similarities in the folks I shoot with locally. I've been to three Nationals, never even remotely came close to winning my class (closest was 6th "C" at the Pan-Am, but top-C was 105 places ahead of me ;-) and I count those experiences highly in my shooting career. I *do* think the Nationals should be open to all - in fact, I just had a conversation with Michael Bane, who is going to be working with USPSA on the Factory Gun nationals, and I was telling him that I think we need to find a way to break through the ceiling - we seem to have a conceptual roadblock, thinking that a Nationals should be 400-500 shooters. Who says we can't have a Nationals with 1000 shooters? Or more? Might be really fun to try. Anyway, bottom line is I never said I thought the Nationals should be exclusive, I never said I thought people should be turned away from the Nationals for being "not good enough". Those are *not* my words. I did say I came up through a sport (sailboat racing) in which you had to win to go to the next level; but I did *not* say that's what I thought we ought to do with our own Nationals. My words are: I think our National Championships should "mean something" - it is more [to me, at least] than just another match, it is the premier match in the premier action shooting competition in the country; It should be more than just another match fee, it should be a proud moment to be a competitor in the match, no matter how you got there. I don't have the answer to it. But, I can say, we are trying very hard to listen to the members, and, we're working to find ways to provide events and services that our members want... and sometimes, it is not easy to figure out just what that is. bruce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Storm Posted March 10, 2002 Share Posted March 10, 2002 Bruce, You said: At the same time, I'll note that my own personal opinion is that the Nationals should "mean something" - going to the nationals should be more than just writing a check. But I came up through a venue of competition where the only way to get to "the next level" of competition was to win at the previous level. If I misunderstood, I apologize. By stating that going to the Nationals should more than writing a check, it sure sounded like you were advocating a position to me. And it sounded as if that position was, you have to "earn" a slot to the Nationals. You did say it was your "personal opinion". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bgary Posted March 10, 2002 Share Posted March 10, 2002 Yes, I *do* feel that the Nationals should mean something. But, I never said I thought we should accomplish that significance by keeping people out. bruce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted March 10, 2002 Share Posted March 10, 2002 I might as well sound off too. I'd like to see lower match fees. Give trophies out to the class. The "prize table" could then be top down. Kinda like they did at the last Limited Nationals. (Although, there is a better way to hand out the prizes that would give the sponsors more mileage.) Expand the Nationals. Add a weekend. Have daily showcase events. Invite more non-USPSA organizations. I like how the top 16 are in the shoot-off and everybody gets to watch them shoot. How about expanding that? Crown the match winner the champ, but have a fresh, four stage power match. Maybe let that determine who gets to go to the prize table first. Along those same lines...I'd like to see how the stage winners shot the stages. It would be cool to video the super-squad and post the stage winner's run on the web. (I shot this in 8.05...so that is how Travis shot it in 3.85.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Moneypenny Posted March 10, 2002 Share Posted March 10, 2002 i like kyle's idea personally i think brian hit the nail on the head, its more fun without the classes. I shoot IDPA and IPSC at 2 very excellent clubs, clubs which have GM's (ipsc in east huntingdon PA) and Idpa Masters ( tyler county WV) i don't compete with the people in my "division/class" i am always running after the top dogs. haven't caught them very often, but sometimes beat them on a stage or two. i enjoy that a LOT more than beating people constantly. my motto from martial arts competition i would rather lose to someone better than me, than to win without competition. bad news for some of the hero's out there these young fellows coming up are FAST and GOOD. the level of competition is going up, and they are getting older, i say leave it the way it is, as for kyles idea's we definitley need more positive publicity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonedaddy Posted March 10, 2002 Share Posted March 10, 2002 Back to the original question........should there be a USPSA Pro Class? Well...... not long after I joined (1992) it was explained to me that there was going to be a new GRANDMASTER classification for the masters who were at the absolute top of the game. (It seemed pretty irrelevant to me at the time.) But, I have always considered GM class to be the realm of the "big dog" pro shooter. As the saying goes, "if you can't run with the big dogs, you better not get off the porch". I'm 3% away from GM right now. And I may never choose to cross that line. But, if I do, I sure hope there will be somebody there to compete against that makes it worth the long drive. If we take the pros out of GM class it will become "just another locked restroom on the highway to mediocrity." Yeah, you can quote me on that on. -Sam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted March 11, 2002 Share Posted March 11, 2002 bonedaddy: We have had this conversation before...you know as well as I that you could make GM this spring by shooting the special classifier here, the one at Ghost Town and maybe even the one in Dubois. You are really in a Catch-22 aren't you? If you choose to shoot your L10 pistol or avoid classifiers altogether that makes you a sandbagger. If you choose to move up to GM that makes you a paper GM. You can't win and that's a shame because you are a one heck of a good guy. Hmmmm...could it be that your classification, where you are at in your learning curve vs. match experience, etc. are really nobody's business? :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Thompson Posted March 11, 2002 Share Posted March 11, 2002 Quote: from smoney on 12:35 am on Mar. 10, 2002i like kyle's idea I shoot IDPA and IPSC at 2 very excellent clubs, clubs which have GM's (ipsc in east huntingdon PA) and Idpa Masters ( tyler county WV) i don't compete with the people in my "division/class" i am always running after the top dogs. /quote] What are you talking about? You've never beaten me at E. Huntington! (Edited by John Thompson at 9:17 am on Mar. 11, 2002) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulW Posted March 11, 2002 Share Posted March 11, 2002 Ron, You are so right and your post was right on the money, it is a catch 22. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted March 11, 2002 Share Posted March 11, 2002 RMO What the heck is a "paper" GM?!?!? Why would anyone label someone with such other than jealousy? I could not care less about "sandbaggers" or "grandbaggers" or "paper" GMs. RMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
talon Posted March 11, 2002 Share Posted March 11, 2002 This thread has been very interesting reading. I found my thoughts drifting back and forth between the two view points. Then I tried to make an analogy between the class system and the belt ranks in martial arts and I couldnt make it work for me. When I compete in IDPA or IPSC I am competing against my self. I don't care about the class system. However when I go to the dojo I don't want to fight the black belts because there I do want to compete against others. What I'm trying to say is that a d class shooter can't compete with TGO. There must be a class system if he is going to compete against others. That's as far as I got so far because introducing a class system brings all the problems mentioned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted March 11, 2002 Share Posted March 11, 2002 Quote: from talon on 1:43 pm on Mar. 11, 2002 What I'm trying to say is that a d class shooter can't compete with TGO. There must be a class system if he is going to compete against others. I disagree. The D Class shooter is constantly striving to improve. So I'm sure is TGO. The D shooter can look at his score as a percentage of TGO's score and see if he is making progress. Is TGO widening the gap, or is the D shooter approaching C class and improving faster than the master is improving? It may not be a competition for the match title yet, but the day is coming. I'm pretty sure that the younger group of GM's weren't born that way ---- they had to improve faster than the Grand Masters to reach that level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted March 11, 2002 Share Posted March 11, 2002 I look at it like golf...doesn't matter what Tiger does, I am playing against the hole/course. The top guys are just a yardstick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted March 11, 2002 Share Posted March 11, 2002 My vibe on The Great One, that sob gets better each time I see him shoot! So, you must practice! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now