Not following Course Description Exactly

[paraman1]

Shot a match today and one of the stage descriptions went something like this ....

Engage targets T1-T3 with 2 rounds each , perform a mandatory reload and engage targets T4-T6 with 2 rounds each then perform reload and engage targets T7-T9 with 2 rounds each .

My question is this , if a competitor shot targets T1-T3 first , performed the reload , engaged targets T7-T9 and then performed their final reload and engaged T4-T6 is this not a procedural for engaging targets out of order ?

[Skydiver]

Yes, if this were a standard exercise.

But in response to your question with regards to that course description, I would say "No." In fact, I'd go as far as saying no penalties should be assessed if the shooter decided to not even reload.

In fact, I would even go out on a limb and say this this is an illegal course of fire if this was not a classifier.

By requiring 18 rounds for this course of fire all in one string, this is a "Long Course", so mandatory reloads may not be specified.

Standard Exercises can have mandatory reloads, but there must be more than one string. A Speed Shoot can have mandatory reloads, but there must be no more than 16 rounds required.

According to:

1.1.5 Freestyle – USPSA matches are freestyle. Competitors must be permitted to solve the challenge presented in a freestyle manner, and to shoot targets on an "as and when visible" basis. Courses of fire must not require mandatory reloads nor dictate a shooting position, location or stance, except as specified below. However, conditions may be created, and barriers or other physical limitations may be constructed, to compel a competitor into shooting positions, locations or stances.

1.1.5.1 Level I matches may use shooting boxes and specify where or when specific target arrays may be engaged, and may specify mandatory reloads in short and medium courses only (not in a long course).

1.1.5.2 Standard Exercises and Classifiers may include mandatory reloads and may dictate a shooting position, location or stance.

:

1.2.1 General Courses of Fire:

1.2.1.1 "Short Courses" must not require more than 8 rounds to complete and no more than 2 shooting locations.

1.2.1.2 "Medium Courses" must not require more than 16 rounds to complete and no more than 3 shooting locations. Course design and construction must not require more than 8 scoring hits from any single location or view, nor allow a competitor to shoot all targets in the course of fire from any single location or view.

1.2.1.3 "Long Courses" in Level III or higher matches must not require more than 32 rounds to complete. Course design and construction must not require more than 8 scoring hits from any single location or view, nor allow a competitor to shoot all targets in the course of fire from any single location or view.

1.2.2 Special Courses of Fire:

1.2.2.1 "Standard Exercises" - Courses of fire consisting of two or more separately timed component strings. Scores, with any penalties deducted, are accumulated on completion of the course of fire to produce the final stage results. Standard Exercises must only be scored using Virginia Count or Fixed Time. The course of fire for each component string may require a specific shooting position, procedure and/or one or more mandatory reloads. Standard Exercises must not require more than 24 rounds to complete. Component strings must not require more than 6 rounds (12 rounds if a mandatory reload is specified).

1.2.2.2 "Classifiers" – Courses of fire published by USPSA, which are available to competitors seeking a National classification. Classifiers must be set-up in accordance with these rules and be conducted strictly in accordance with the notes and diagrams accompanying them. Results must be submitted to the publishing entity in the format required (with the applicable fees, if any), in order to be recognized.

1.2.2.3 "Speed Shoot"-Courses of fire consisting of one continuous string of fire not exceeding 16 rounds shot on one or more arrays of multiple targets from a single location or view. No more than 8 rounds may be required without a mandatory reload and no more than one mandatory reload may be required in the course of fire. Stage may be scored either Comstock or Virginia Count. See Rule 9.2.3.2.

Edited July 19, 2010 by Skydiver

[LT45]

Shot a match today and one of the stage descriptions went something like this ....

Engage targets T1-T3 with 2 rounds each , perform a mandatory reload and engage targets T4-T6 with 2 rounds each then perform reload and engage targets T7-T9 with 2 rounds each .

My question is this , if a competitor shot targets T1-T3 first , performed the reload , engaged targets T7-T9 and then performed their final reload and engaged T4-T6 is this not a procedural for engaging targets out of order ?

1.1.5.1 Level I matches may use shooting boxes and specify where or when specific target arrays may be engaged, and may specify mandatory reloads in short and medium courses only (not in a long course).

If the WSB did not say something like "Target arrays may be engaged in any order" then YES it would be one procedural for not following the Written Stage Briefing.

A side note... the stage was not a legal USPSA stage.

Looks like it required 18 rounds and two mandatory reloads.

Since it was not a Standard Exercise, it would fall under the category of a Speed Shoot.

1.2.2.3 “Speed Shoot”-Courses of fire consisting of one continuous string of fire not exceeding 16 rounds shot on one or more arrays of multiple targets from a single location or view. No more than 8 rounds may be required without a mandatory reload and no more than one mandatory reload may be required in the course of fire. Stage may be scored either Comstock or Virginia Count. See Rule 9.2.3.2.

[spanky]

Aside from the illegality of the stage, I suppose it depends on how the WSB was written. It'd assume that because it says "then" instead of just using commas to notate separation of arrays then it would be expected that you would shoot them in that order so yes, a procedural would apply.

[Skydiver]

A little bit of thread drift here, but I may as well as ask. So given the way the rules are written, in a Level I match, can a speed shoot WSB specify what order that target arrays must be engaged in?

My reading of 1.1.5.1 leads me to the the answer of "No" because "specify ... when specific target arrays may be engaged ... in short and medium courses only". But this is based on my thinking that a Speed Shoot is not a Short or Medium course of fire, but something of it's own, like a classifiers or standard exercises are things on their own.

[Analogy: there are two wheeled powered vehicles, three wheeled powered vehicles, four wheel powered vehicles, and multi wheeled powered vehicles, but mopeds are differentiated from scooters and motorcycles, and Segways are yet another thing in a class of their own.]

I'm willing to be convinced otherwise. That is a Speed Shoot can be a short or medium course of fire, and so target array engagement order can be specified in a level I match.

Any thoughts on this?

[Skydiver]

About "then" and stage procedures. See CM 99-34 "Ported View" stage procedure.

Upon start signal, through the left port, engage only T1, T2, PP1, and PP2. Then make a mandatory reload and through the right port, engage only T3, T4, PP3, and PP4. All shots must pass through respective ports.

The times I've seen this classifier done, right handed shooter typically engaged T3, T4, PP3 and PP4 first, but procedural penalties were not applied. Was this an error on the RO's part to not apply a penalty?

[LT45]

About "then" and stage procedures. See CM 99-34 "Ported View" stage procedure.

Upon start signal, through the left port, engage only T1, T2, PP1, and PP2. Then make a mandatory reload and through the right port, engage only T3, T4, PP3, and PP4. All shots must pass through respective ports.

The times I've seen this classifier done, right handed shooter typically engaged T3, T4, PP3 and PP4 first, but procedural penalties were not applied. Was this an error on the RO's part to not apply a penalty?

The way I read it: the order IS specified in the WSB.

There is nothing written on the classifier indicating targets may be engaged in any order other than stated in the WSB.

I would say one procedural...buy the book.

However, I don't see why the order was specified... I don't see an advantage in going to either port first.

[spanky]

About "then" and stage procedures. See CM 99-34 "Ported View" stage procedure.

Upon start signal, through the left port, engage only T1, T2, PP1, and PP2. Then make a mandatory reload and through the right port, engage only T3, T4, PP3, and PP4. All shots must pass through respective ports.

The times I've seen this classifier done, right handed shooter typically engaged T3, T4, PP3 and PP4 first, but procedural penalties were not applied. Was this an error on the RO's part to not apply a penalty?

The way I read it: the order IS specified in the WSB.

There is nothing written on the classifier indicating targets may be engaged in any order other than stated in the WSB.

I would say one procedural...buy the book.

However, I don't see why the order was specified... I don't see an advantage in going to either port first.

Agreed on both points.

[Flexmoney]

"Then" is a specific procedure.

[BayouSlide]

This issue also raises a pertinent issue for all you stage designers out there: as Skydiver noted, 1.1.5 is our guiding principle. In cases like this, does the desire to specify target order of engagement override the guiding principle of freestyle? If not, clarify in the WSB that targets arrays may be engaged in any order.

Curtis

[Skizeks]

Calling it a level one match is an excuse for bad stage design!!

[Nik Habicht]

"Then" is a specific procedure.

It tells you when to make the reload.....

Now if it said First engage T1-3, then make a mandatory reload, and then engage T4-6 -- I'd argue you couldn't pick the starting array....

[spanky]

"Then" is a specific procedure.

It tells you when to make the reload.....

Now if it said First engage T1-3, then make a mandatory reload, and then engage T4-6 -- I'd argue you couldn't pick the starting array....

I would think that if it said "then make a mandatory reload, (comma), engage T4-6 then it would be shooters choice but it says "and engage" leading me to believe the reload and the final array engagement is one command.

[Flexmoney]

"Then" is a specific procedure.

It tells you when to make the reload.....

I wasn't being specific, as we might not have a completely accurate WSB here, but...

I believe "then" tells you to do some parts of the procedure before the word "then" and some parts after the word "then".

I think I have heard your version before somewhere.

LOL

[Schutzenmeister]

It appears to me this is the type problem one is more likely to encounter when the stage is not legal to begin with. In my experience, it is generally easier to write a proper and understandable WSB for a legal stage.

JMHO ...

[SmittyFL]

It appears to me this is the type problem one is more likely to encounter when the stage is not legal to begin with. In my experience, it is generally easier to write a proper and understandable WSB for a legal stage.

JMHO ...

Bingo!

These questions rarely if ever arise with a legal stage.

The Level I lazy exemption is not an excuse for incompetence. It isn't that difficult to just make it legal, I don't understand why folks would do that other than just not knowing the rules. An MD or any RO should be able to fix it pretty easily.

If you want to debate the rules then fine, but this is like asking the penalty for using a hockey stick to score a goal in a soccer game.

[twodownzero]

[quote name='SmittyFL' date='20 July 2010 - 09:06 AM' timestamp='1279634796' post='1252323'

If you want to debate the rules then fine, but this is like asking the penalty for using a hockey stick to score a goal in a soccer game.

Yep. If the stage is illegal, it doesn't really matter one way or the other. The stage should be removed from the match or the written state briefing modified to make it a legal stage.