Chrono round is a squib/dud

[G-ManBart]

I wasn't sure if this should be in the rules or match administration section, so if it needs to be moved I apologize in advance.

Okay, you step up to the chrono and, for whatever reason, they've shot three, shot another three and you haven't quite made power factor, so you decide to have them shoot the 7th round....and it's a squib or a dud. What's the call? Just ask the competitor for an additional round? Scored as shot? What if it's a squib that exits the barrel, but doesn't record on the chrono?

My sense of fairness says to just ask them for another round, but I can almost hear someone complaining "oh, they needed an extra round and THAT one was 50fps faster, so they made PF and beat me for first whatever".

Thoughts?

[SLM]

Chrono is a stage yes? You get a score, have to follow range commands, etc, etc. In your scenario I'd say score it as shot, just like any other stage. If you declared Major but at least made Minor with the first six, you're Minor. If you declared Minor and didn't get there yet, well, have fun shooting.

What would suck worse is for the squib/dud to be one of the first three IMO. Then you'd have no chance at any PF.

[LT45]

I wasn't sure if this should be in the rules or match administration section, so if it needs to be moved I apologize in advance.

Okay, you step up to the chrono and, for whatever reason, they've shot three, shot another three and you haven't quite made power factor, so you decide to have them shoot the 7th round....and it's a squib or a dud. What's the call? Just ask the competitor for an additional round? Scored as shot? What if it's a squib that exits the barrel, but doesn't record on the chrono?

My sense of fairness says to just ask them for another round, but I can almost hear someone complaining "oh, they needed an extra round and THAT one was 50fps faster, so they made PF and beat me for first whatever".

Thoughts?

Since this issue is not directly addressed in the rule book, I think it should fall under the category of common sense. The competitor is allowed to have seven rounds fired over the chronograph, so after clearing the barrel, I'd have him pull one from his belt.

I wouldn't worry too much about the peanut gallery... seems that some people can never be pleased anyway.

[Nik Habicht]

What would suck worse is for the squib/dud to be one of the first three IMO. Then you'd have no chance at any PF.

Why wouldn't you just record the velocities for rounds 1 and 2, clear the squib, and fire the next round? Most chrono shops have calculators laying around to deal with averaging the best three out of six or seven....

[George Jones]

Call the Range Master.

[Schutzenmeister]

Chrono is a stage yes? You get a score, have to follow range commands, etc, etc. In your scenario I'd say score it as shot, just like any other stage. If you declared Major but at least made Minor with the first six, you're Minor. If you declared Minor and didn't get there yet, well, have fun shooting.

What would suck worse is for the squib/dud to be one of the first three IMO. Then you'd have no chance at any PF.

I might be inclined to agree with this, but the chrono is not a Comstock stage! Think of it more as a 3-7 string VC stage ... You fire a shot, you score (record velocity.) Next string ...

In a VC stage, if a shooter has a squib on one string, he is entitled to clear the malfunction, have his score recorded for that string (here, vel. = 0) and proceed to the next string.

If he has a second squib, I'm calling the RM and requesting his ammo be declared "unsafe."

[Corey]

this is a good question. I guess Im on the side of its a VC stage. if the last round dont go bang, the shooter gets "scored" or velocities recorded on the previous 6 shots.

Although if it ever happens, ill plead like hell to take another round out of my bag, haha. Now that i think of it, im gonna go bump my charge .1gr on the next batch of loads, haha

Edited July 13, 2010 by Corey

[SLM]

What would suck worse is for the squib/dud to be one of the first three IMO. Then you'd have no chance at any PF.

Why wouldn't you just record the velocities for rounds 1 and 2, clear the squib, and fire the next round? Most chrono shops have calculators laying around to deal with averaging the best three out of six or seven....

Because you don't get to stop in the middle of a stage, clear a squib and keep going. You're done. I see chrono the same way. It's a minimum three round course of fire. Take shot 1+2+3/3=PF. If you only have one or two that aren't zero's they better be really heavy bullets going darn fast.

[sslav]

What would suck worse is for the squib/dud to be one of the first three IMO. Then you'd have no chance at any PF.

Why wouldn't you just record the velocities for rounds 1 and 2, clear the squib, and fire the next round? Most chrono shops have calculators laying around to deal with averaging the best three out of six or seven....

Because you don't get to stop in the middle of a stage, clear a squib and keep going. You're done. I see chrono the same way. It's a minimum three round course of fire. Take shot 1+2+3/3=PF. If you only have one or two that aren't zero's they better be really heavy bullets going darn fast.

I am sorry that is a ridiculous interpretation of the rules. We are at the chrono to determine the power factor. So velocity of anything that leaves the barrel should be measured and included in the average. If the bullet never left the barrel for whatever reason (squib, light primer strike or whatever) it does not count as a shot. It did not have a velocity of 0 - it had no velocity. Clear the squib, and shoot the next round.

[Skydiver]

Because you don't get to stop in the middle of a stage, clear a squib and keep going. You're done. I see chrono the same way. It's a minimum three round course of fire. Take shot 1+2+3/3=PF. If you only have one or two that aren't zero's they better be really heavy bullets going darn fast.

I see Chrono as a course of fire having 3 strings. A mandatory 3 round first string, optional 3 round second string, and optional 1 round third string.

In a multi-string course of fire, 5.7.4 and 5.7.6 seems to indicate that you do get to attempt the other strings in the case of a handgun malfunction. 5.7.7.1 though says that is the case of a confirmed squib, the course is scored as shot.

So should 5.7.6 or 5.7.7.1 be applied in the case of squib in a multi-string course of fire?

In the specific case of the original post, that last string can't be re-attempted as per 5.7.6.

5.7.4 In the event that a handgun malfunction cannot be corrected by the competitor within 2 minutes, he must point the handgun safely downrange and advise the Range Officer, who will terminate the course of fire (excluding any unattempted component strings in a Standard Exercise) in the normal manner. The course of fire (excluding any unattempted component strings in a Standard Exercise) will be scored as shot including all applicable misses and penalties.

:

5.7.6 Where the handgun has failed after the Start signal, the competitor must not be permitted to reshoot the course of fire or string. This includes the instance where a handgun is declared unserviceable or unsafe during a course of fire or string. However, any unattempted component strings in a Standard Exercise may still be attempted by the affected competitor after the handgun has been repaired, and prior to when match results are declared final by the Match Director.

5.7.7 In the event that a Range Officer terminates a course of fire due to a suspicion that a competitor has an unsafe handgun or unsafe ammunition (e.g. a “squib” load), the Range Officer will take whatever steps he deems necessary to return both the competitor and the range to a safe condition. The Range Officer will then inspect the handgun or ammunition and proceed as follows:

5.7.7.1 If the Range Officer finds evidence that confirms the suspected problem, the competitor will not be entitled to a reshoot, but will be ordered to rectify the problem. On the competitor’s score sheet, the time will be recorded up to the last shot fired, and the course of fire will be scored “as shot”, including all applicable misses and penalties.

5.7.7.2 If the Range Officer discovers that the suspected safety problem does not exist, the competitor will be required to reshoot the stage.

If I were the competitor, I figure I'll try for arbitration under Appendix C2, 37.b, if I was going to go sub-minor and end up shooting for no score. I'd argue that Part b, says "the final round fired over the chronograph...average velocity of the three highest velocity rounds from the seven rounds fired." Since the round didn't make it over the chronograph since the chronograph is about 12 feet away, and the round is still in the barrel, I didn't get seven velocities to select the three highest from. It may or may not succeed, but I'd like to shoot for score.

[aztecdriver]

You're all missing another solution.

5.8.1.5 Match Officials reserve the right to conduct chronograph or other tests on all and any ammunition, at any time, and a reason need not be given.

As a match official, it sounds like I have the capability to issue a retest. If indeed, the stage results stand as others have indicated, I can issue a full reshoot of the chronograph stage.

[Skydiver]

Good point, aztecdriver!

Unfortunately, once you've tested minor or sub-minor, you can't go up. Appendix C2, 41 states:

41. If a competitor's match ammunition is retested, or if any authorized replacement ammunition is used, and different power factors are recorded when tested according to these rules, the lower power factor must be applied to all courses of fire, including those already completed by the competitor.

Let's say the competitor went minor, or sub-minor on the first test because of only the 6 rounds fired. Additionally let's say that on the retest, things worked out and the shooter made power factor. The retest still doesn't fix things for the competitor for the match score because the rules say the lower power factor must be applied.

[Edit: Argh, hit the wrong button and posted too early.]

This maybe straining the letter of the law, but:

So as a match official, what I would want to do is NOT declare a "retest", but take advantage of the phrase "all and any ammunition, at any time". Simply have the squib cleared, ask for another round, and fire that last round before calling the first test over.

Now, as a competitor, how do I convince the match official to not declare the test over and convince them that they can ask for another round from me after the squib has been cleared?

Edited July 13, 2010 by Skydiver

[Corey]

with the last couple posts and rule citing, Im swtiching my stance .

It would seem that if teh 7th round dont go bang, having the official require a retest of the 7th round with another from the shooters bag seems like the best solution

[G-ManBart]

I'm not sold on any one answer, but I am enjoying the varied opinions!

[rvb]

Chrono sure ain't a "stage" if I ain't pullin the trigger. It's usually considered a "stage" for match administration (ie squad rotation) purposes, but I've never seen it show up in the stage scores. So to treat it like a stage score "as fired" seems like a big stretch.

If the RM doesn't declare it unsafe (which would be a harsh call, assuming the only squib of the match, but could be considered reasonable), then the book says, "may collect further samples as necessary."

I would hate to have my match ruined because of a 7th round squib, and I would hate even more to win because my competition had a 7th round squib.

And as far as not being able to go "up" in declared pf, well, it's not a re-test, it IS the test. Collecting another round just completes the test.

However, if a bullet does get a reading, even 10fps, that's gotta count.

Some harsh folks on here.

-rvb

Edited July 13, 2010 by rvb

[SLM]

What would suck worse is for the squib/dud to be one of the first three IMO. Then you'd have no chance at any PF.

Why wouldn't you just record the velocities for rounds 1 and 2, clear the squib, and fire the next round? Most chrono shops have calculators laying around to deal with averaging the best three out of six or seven....

Because you don't get to stop in the middle of a stage, clear a squib and keep going. You're done. I see chrono the same way. It's a minimum three round course of fire. Take shot 1+2+3/3=PF. If you only have one or two that aren't zero's they better be really heavy bullets going darn fast.

I am sorry that is a ridiculous interpretation of the rules. We are at the chrono to determine the power factor. So velocity of anything that leaves the barrel should be measured and included in the average. If the bullet never left the barrel for whatever reason (squib, light primer strike or whatever) it does not count as a shot. It did not have a velocity of 0 - it had no velocity. Clear the squib, and shoot the next round.

You interpret it your way, I'll interpret it my way and I'll do it without insults and within the guidelines of the rules forum.

No antagonistic tones will be tolerated.

Please post respectfully or don't post at all.

Just because some read it as three separate strings and others read it as one doesn't give you the right to start insulting people.

What would suck worse is for the squib/dud to be one of the first three IMO. Then you'd have no chance at any PF.

Why wouldn't you just record the velocities for rounds 1 and 2, clear the squib, and fire the next round? Most chrono shops have calculators laying around to deal with averaging the best three out of six or seven....

The procedure written in the blue rule book states that three rounds will be fired and averaged. If those don't meet the requirements another three will be fired and the highest value from all 6 chosen and averaged. In my interpretation that makes it one string of fire, minimum of 3 rounds. If it was worded that the first three were disregarded then I could see the interpretation that there are multiple strings of fire but that's not what the rule book says.

[GrumpyOne]

I'm not sold on any one answer, but I am enjoying the varied opinions!

Bart, it shouldn't be "SOB #8 The Selfincriminator", it should be "SOB #8 The Instigator".

How do you think up these scenarios? USPSA has been going on for years and no one else has ever thought of this?

It does say, that the last round "OVER" the chrono, so if the last round didn't make it over the chrono, then....shoot another one. What about this then? What if one or several of the rounds failed to register on the chrono? Or if round went errant for some reason and never made it over the chrono? Or somebody just plain missed the chrono? What then?

[Singlestack]

I'm confused where you are getting "strings of fire" from? Its the chrono, there are no "strings of fire".

[markcic]

I might be inclined to agree with this, but the chrono is not a Comstock stage! Think of it more as a 3-7 string VC stage ... You fire a shot, you score (record velocity.) Next string ...

In a VC stage, if a shooter has a squib on one string, he is entitled to clear the malfunction, have his score recorded for that string (here, vel. = 0) and proceed to the next string.

If he has a second squib, I'm calling the RM and requesting his ammo be declared "unsafe."

If it is a Virginia count stage, what happens if the chrono doesn't register the shot? Would that count as 0 velocity?

[G-ManBart]

How do you think up these scenarios? USPSA has been going on for years and no one else has ever thought of this?

Some call it a gift while others call it....well, not a gift!

[Schutzenmeister]

Chrono sure ain't a "stage" if I ain't pullin the trigger. [...]

-rvb

Actually ... It is. Appendix C2, #43.

[...]

If it is a Virginia count stage, what happens if the chrono doesn't register the shot? Would that count as 0 velocity?

I used the VC stage as the closest metafor for what should be done ... IMHO. If the Chrono does not record the shot, then it is effectively REF (for that "string") and if necessary, the RO should probably choose to select another round for testing. (If the shooter's ammo is a squib, then it's NOT REF!) See also Appendix C2 #20 ... the closest rule I can find to this situation.

[George Jones]

VC is a scoring method. If the stage has no announced scoring method (such as chrono), then VC cannot possibly apply.

[Schutzenmeister]

VC is a scoring method. If the stage has no announced scoring method (such as chrono), then VC cannot possibly apply.

Yes ... I'm aware of that, George. I was making an analogy. It merely seems to me that, for the purposes of the chronograph, the 7 shots are more akin to 7 one-shot strings than to 1 seven-shot stage ... so to speak.

You shoot a round and (effectively) "score" it by recording the velocity. You repeat as needed until the 7th round, where, if you get that far, the shooter must choose - weigh or shoot. Instead of a HF you determine a PF.

You can conceivably have REF and/or competitor equipment failure. It seems to me the only sensible thing to do, in the event of a squib, is to treat it as competitor equipment failure on a single string of a VC (or FT, for that matter) standards course. Clear the malfunction and allow the competitor to proceed with the remaining "strings."

I seem to recall that Greg Lent, on numerous occasions, has posted a "WSB" at the chrono. I recall that he describes it as a "3 to 7 round VC CoF ..." Yes ... I KNOW it's a joke, but it actually does make a little sense!

[rvb]

Chrono sure ain't a "stage" if I ain't pullin the trigger. [...]

-rvb

Actually ... It is. Appendix C2, #43.

Yes, technically, it's a stage, why I used "".

considered a "stage" for match administration (ie squad rotation) purposes, but I've never seen it show up in the stage scores.

you could also include officiating purposes, safety rules apply, arbitration, etc etc.

So if we can apply VC scoring concepts, I'll take the PE from an extra shot then.

Edited July 13, 2010 by rvb

[rgkeller]

All references to the fired bullet in C2 call for the round to be fired "over the chronograph."

If the bullet did not proceed "over the chronograph" then the results of that bullet cannot be used in any calculation.

Since the competitor has the right to have the procedures in C2 followed, then a substitute round is the only possible option.