rmills Posted January 25, 2004 Share Posted January 25, 2004 Starting this year, we are considering giving out Procedural Penalties (3 sec) for anyone caught "Air Gunning". There's been talk as to the new rule being enforced at last year's nationals. What's everyone's opinion in regards to this? Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew_Mink Posted January 25, 2004 Share Posted January 25, 2004 Could you point out in the rulebook where it says you can't do this? Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmills Posted January 25, 2004 Author Share Posted January 25, 2004 The rule book doesn't address air gunning, but at the nationals it was discussed as being the equivalent of taking a sight picture with a pistol. From what I understand (someone please correct me if I'm wrong) it was enforced. Over the last year, several Area Coordinators as well as SO's were tasked by headquarters to clarify (yes clarify, not change) the rules so that a revised rulebook could be issued reflecting those clarifications. Headquarters has been slow in addressing those efforts. Here in Ohio, I understand many clubs are now enforcing this. I'm just curious what other clubs are doing................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Perez Posted January 25, 2004 Share Posted January 25, 2004 Could you point out in the rulebook where it says you can't do this? Thanks. Matt , See rules 2 and 3. 2. Any attempt to circumvent or compromise the spirit or rationale of any stage either by the use of inappropriate devices, equipment, or technique, will incur a twenty (20) second penalty (Vickers Count Stage) or a two hundred (200) point penalty (PAR Time Stage); this is the "FAILURE TO DO RIGHT RULE". 3. Unsportsmanlike conduct, unfair actions, or the use of illegal equipment which, in the opinion of the match director, tends to make a travesty of the defensive shooting sport shall result in disqualification from the stage or the entire match at the discretion of the match director. The discretion is reserved to the MD as to decide whether airgunning is allowed.The SO's may apply a PE under his directives. You can also see the last sentence under Purpose at the beginning of the book: No "competition only" equipment is permitted in Defensive Pistol matches since the main goal is to test the skill and ability of the individual, not their equipment or gamesmanship. Locally - airgunning hasn't been an issue. It is addressed at sanctioned match shooters meetings and may be in effect for this years Az state match. I haven't checked with the MD on that part. Until that day, MP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew_Mink Posted January 26, 2004 Share Posted January 26, 2004 I'm not an SO, but our club enforces the 'no sight picture', which is perfectly ok with me, because I can see the rationale, plus it is in the rulebook. 'No airgunning' is not in the rulebook, and as it is currently, no SO can legally assign a Procedural to anyone airgunning. But having said that, I can see where 'no airgunning' should be a rule. But the rulebook should also state that explicitly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmills Posted January 26, 2004 Author Share Posted January 26, 2004 On page 3 of the current rule book, it states that no sight pictures are allowed, with no reference to a pistol. However, later on in the rulebook it talks about a sight picture with a pistol. This is why the rules clarification committee was formed. At two recent state matches the rule was enforced and no one had an issue with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Nesbitt Posted January 26, 2004 Share Posted January 26, 2004 Air gunning has been prohibited at the last few Nationals even though it is not in the rule book. I won't give a procedural for it myself but might jokingly tell people not to do it. I have never seen it be a problem. A clarified rule book would be nice. In the meantime, we can put on excellent matches by working around the unclear things. Bill Nesbitt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted January 26, 2004 Share Posted January 26, 2004 Bill You are the King of tact... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted January 26, 2004 Share Posted January 26, 2004 I thought this wasn't an issue because walking through the stage is prohibited? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted January 26, 2004 Share Posted January 26, 2004 Erik, They generally need pasters and resetters though --- and I've always found that I can evaluate the critical targets by just walking through the firing position with a roll of tape in my hot little hands.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rufus The Bum Posted January 26, 2004 Share Posted January 26, 2004 Why would you want to take a sight picture? I've been shooting IDPA over 3 years, twice a month and have never seen any "real" need to take a sight picture. The stages are generally so simple that it's just not required. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C Sims Posted January 26, 2004 Share Posted January 26, 2004 I know that IDPA and the real world are two different things, but would you get a procedural in the "defensive real world" if you pointed your "airgun" at somebody? If it isn't in the rule book than how can it be a rule? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snokid Posted January 26, 2004 Share Posted January 26, 2004 I know that IDPA and the real world are two different things, but would you get a procedural in the "defensive real world" if you pointed your "airgun" at somebody? If it isn't in the rule book than how can it be a rule? Because didn't you know that idpa is training is not a game, so in the best intrest of learning we can make the rules up as you get better than us... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C Sims Posted January 27, 2004 Share Posted January 27, 2004 I knew that I was forgetting something, thanks snokid! Maybe that airgunning trick is just that extra big advantage that I been looking for while doing that training. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2cats Posted January 28, 2004 Share Posted January 28, 2004 There's airgunning and then there's airgunning. If you tape after every shooter, and go through the stage in the order of target aquisition, and air gun every target - well, I'm pretty sure there is a rule against an individual walk through. Not that it's not an individual walk through if you don't airgun - it's just way obvious. Then, if you're 15 feet behind the starting position of a stage, waiting 20 minutes to shoot, and you airgun one of the visible targets, and it gets you psyched, or makes you feel better - I personally don't have a problem with that. When I started out in IDPA, I felt the need to do this. I have no idea if it helped me. I'm not sure how the rules can or will be changed. Right now, I'm of the opinion that airgunning is legal, and individual walk throughs are not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the duck of death Posted January 29, 2004 Share Posted January 29, 2004 Damn, I wonder if I'll be penalized at the next match for looking at the stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmills Posted January 29, 2004 Author Share Posted January 29, 2004 Damn, I wonder if I'll be penalized at the next match for looking at the stage. You probably will be if you are pointing your fingers at the targets in a sight picture fashion. Here's a response from IDPA Headquarters in regards to the airgunning question. A previous poster was absolutely correct when they said that the issue was already covered by Competition Rules 2 and 3. ==================================================== The BoD never intended airgunning to be a part of IDPA competition. At the time, they were of the opinion that the current competition rules would eliminate airgunning. Unfortunately, it did not. If you would like to get your folks to stop airgunning, please refer them to competition rules # 2 & 3. Airgunning is considered an attempt to circumvent or compromise the spirit of the stage and unsportsmanlike conduct. We are currently working on a rulebook clarification that will have this spelled out where there is no longer any question about it. Thanks, Dru Nichols IDPA Administrative Coordinator Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skeeter Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 i'm new to idpa so let get this right. you're not supposed to walk through the stage and look at the targets, but you can go walk through and tape the targets and look while your there. if this right it most be a pain to be the first shooter at each stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Perez Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 if this right it most be a pain to be the first shooter at each stage. Not really - most IDPA stages are simple enough that any beginner can step up and perform w/o having to do a physical rehearsal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmills Posted January 30, 2004 Author Share Posted January 30, 2004 i'm new to idpa so let get this right. you're not supposed to walk through the stage and look at the targets, but you can go walk through and tape the targets and look while your there. if this right it most be a pain to be the first shooter at each stage. Yes, you will get a walk thru with the SO (unless it's a secret, hidden, surpise stage) after they read the stage description, BUT you will not be allowed to point your fingers at the targets as if taking a sight picture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
9x45 Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 You just call it 'tape-gunning' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skeeter Posted January 30, 2004 Share Posted January 30, 2004 my 1st idpa match had a wall with ports you couldn't see the targets unless you went to the port to look. if they would let the first shooter he would have been hurting. idon't worry about airgunnning as it don't help that much anyway Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the duck of death Posted January 31, 2004 Share Posted January 31, 2004 At times this really gets silly . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scandog Posted February 2, 2004 Share Posted February 2, 2004 If you get a procedural for pointing your finger, come to Michigan. We still believe this is a game and if you are looking at the targets while you kneel at a barricade to pick up brass, As many do, or you point your finger during the walk through, we won't give you a penalty. The rule book states sight picture. It then defines sight picture as drawing your weapon and aiming it at the targets. Just because they can't organize topics and keep them in the same section, there is still only one definition in the rule book. Where does it say sight picture is pointing your finger? That is not in my copy. We had a meeting in Michigan and of the 5 or 6 clubs that were in attendance, we decided airgunning was legal until the new LGB rolls out. This continual change of rules we get from HQ is not helping the problem, it is making it worse. We should not have to have a meeting to make sure everyone enforces the rules the same. The LGB needs work. We all know it. If you don't think so, look for two clubs that enforce rules the same way, not just your way. The question is will Bill W actually listen to those of us who like shooting IDPA or will he wait until he runs everyone off to other sports? By the way, they put out the Tactical Journal. If they don't want people doing something that isn't spelled out in the rule book, why not address it there. All members get it and then there will be no excuse for clubs making up their own rules. Just a thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rufus The Bum Posted February 2, 2004 Share Posted February 2, 2004 I've seen our MD give a reminder to folks about air-gunning. Yes, it's a STUPID rule, but it's something not allowed in IDPA. It took me a long time to understand that air-gunning isn't part of IDPA because, what if your car was broken down, someone stopped to help, only to pull a knife on you, are you going to have time to rehearse what you are about to do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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