Muscle Memory is kicking my butt

[dlc356]

My first centerfire pistol was a G17 my Dad bought for me when I was around twelve or thirteen. I guess due to my hand size/strength at the time I started wrapping my weak hand index finger around the front of the trigger guard. I realized recently (now thirty-four) that it's causing a problem. I guess I'm applying too much pressure with my finger. My second shot is kind of sloppy a lot of times. It appears I'm pulling them down and normally left. I've been working on it with dry-fire practice at home but it's still about every second or third draw I find my index finger has found it's way back up on the trigger guard.

At today's match I made a conscious effort to keep my finger down with the rest of them. I'm getting better but still caught myself doing it a several times. On the stages where I kept it off the trigger guard my times felt faster, cadence was smoother, and hits were better.

I guess it's just going to take time and a lot more practice. Anybody got any pointers to un-train myself?

[GrumpyOne]

Pavlovian technique: Every time you catch yourself doing that, set the gun down immediately, lay your hand flat on a table, and smack the offending digit with a hammer, HARD! It won't take long to unlearn, if you stick with the technique.

Other than that, it's just gonna take time and concious thought about not wrapping your finger around like you have been doing.

[Singlestack]

Dryfire.

Dryfire in slow motion.

Dryfire.

[CocoBolo]

While certainly you can tend to recoil steer the gun with that finger, the down and left sounds a lot like too much trigger finger, I did some of that today my self, shooting Limited after shooting open for months. You are on the right track with the dry fire, work on the trigger control as well.

Every time you get it right give yourself a -1, but when you get it wrong a +1, if it gets above zero get the hammer.

[dlc356]

Thanks for the replies ya'll. I'm going to keep on dry firing and working at it. For the time being, I'm going to leave the hammer downstairs in the toolbox.

[GrumpyOne]

Thanks for the replies ya'll. I'm going to keep on dry firing and working at it. For the time being, I'm going to leave the hammer downstairs in the toolbox.

I'm telling you, it WILL work!

[G-ManBart]

It's not likely the finger wrapped around the trigger guard, it's the finger on the trigger, that's causing the low and left. Instead of a smooth press from start to finish, it's a rapid acceleration when the sights seem lined up and that moves the sights before the shot breaks. R,

[CiDirkona]

Glue a thumb tack to the front of your trigger guard...

[BLUTO]

It's not likely the finger wrapped around the trigger guard, it's the finger on the trigger, that's causing the low and left. Instead of a smooth press from start to finish, it's a rapid acceleration when the sights seem lined up and that moves the sights before the shot breaks. R,

That's the most likely reason.

As for breaking the habit, its draw check grip, repeat - Ive been told at least 500 repetitions are necessary to change anything so get busy

[AWLAZS]

Bart is right its the trigger finger causing the problems

[Flexmoney]

Further...

With your support hand finger out there...and you still working on your grip...you may not be getting a whole lot of "support" from that hand. So, you strong hand does the work. Which can make it tough for the trigger finger to act independently.

[Jake Di Vita]

Just pull the trigger straight to the rear of the gun without moving the sights. Ultimately grip has no effect on accuracy...you can shoot accurately with the gun turned upside down pulling the trigger with your pinky. A solid grip and stance is one of the most important aspects of shooting quickly.

The accuracy problem is a trigger control issue. Bottom line is the reason you are missing is because you are moving the sights before the bullet has exited the barrel.

[AlamoShooter]

Just pull the trigger straight to the rear of the gun without moving the sights. Ultimately grip has no effect on accuracy...you can shoot accurately with the gun turned upside down pulling the trigger with your pinky. A solid grip and stance is one of the most important aspects of shooting quickly.

The accuracy problem is a trigger control issue. Bottom line is the reason you are missing is because you are moving the sights before the bullet has exited the barrel.

+1

The left hand gives you consistency for following shots = puts the sight back to ware you are looking.

I read you post and you are focusing on "Don't Spill That Milk!" The kid will always spill the milk "Don't kick that chair Again!!!" The Kid kick the chair

YOU are focusing on something you Don't want to do. Stop it. Put all your attention and focus on what you Want!! = You want a good grip so do it.

And let go of small set backs in dry fire . do it rite and forget about the flaws.

Be a good student to your self a reward good behavior and learn from mistakes , buy not scolding bad.

Or ! Grumpy and I will show up with a hammer and wack you finger every time we catch you ...... scolding your self

[GrumpyOne]

Technically, in Brians' book, there is no such thing as "Muscle Memeory", as your muscles don't think, only your brain does....

[G-ManBart]

Just pull the trigger straight to the rear of the gun without moving the sights. Ultimately grip has no effect on accuracy...you can shoot accurately with the gun turned upside down pulling the trigger with your pinky. A solid grip and stance is one of the most important aspects of shooting quickly.

The accuracy problem is a trigger control issue. Bottom line is the reason you are missing is because you are moving the sights before the bullet has exited the barrel.

Amen to that!

[Aloha Robert]

Just pull the trigger straight to the rear of the gun without moving the sights. Ultimately grip has no effect on accuracy...you can shoot accurately with the gun turned upside down pulling the trigger with your pinky. A solid grip and stance is one of the most important aspects of shooting quickly.

The accuracy problem is a trigger control issue. Bottom line is the reason you are missing is because you are moving the sights before the bullet has exited the barrel.

Amen to that!

I think both of the above are absolutely correct. But how to do it is somewhat of a can of worms and you will hear a lot of opinions on the HOW to execute it. My 2 cents is , If you are shooting in Open, this is tons easier to do and faster, if you have a *thumb rest [generic]* or properly fitted Thumb rest. It makes it a lot easier to control almost ALL of the recoil with weak hand so trigger hand can be loose as a goose and execute a proper trigger pull without moving sights while breaking the shot.

[G-ManBart]

Just pull the trigger straight to the rear of the gun without moving the sights. Ultimately grip has no effect on accuracy...you can shoot accurately with the gun turned upside down pulling the trigger with your pinky. A solid grip and stance is one of the most important aspects of shooting quickly.

The accuracy problem is a trigger control issue. Bottom line is the reason you are missing is because you are moving the sights before the bullet has exited the barrel.

Amen to that!

I think both of the above are absolutely correct. But how to do it is somewhat of a can of worms and you will hear a lot of opinions on the HOW to execute it. My 2 cents is , If you are shooting in Open, this is tons easier to do and faster, if you have a *thumb rest [generic]* or properly fitted Thumb rest. It makes it a lot easier to control almost ALL of the recoil with weak hand so trigger hand can be loose as a goose and execute a proper trigger pull without moving sights while breaking the shot.

I'll preface this by saying I use a thumb rest on my Open guns, but many people who know a lot about this think they actually weaken your support hand grip because they don't typically allow your hand to cam forward as much as without a rest. In the class I took with Manny Bragg he said the overwhelming majority of folks he sees with thumb rests are getting inconsistent dot tracking due to pushing on the rest. I don't think I actively push on it, but I might resist against it, and we didn't find my dot tracking worse with the rest. I'm working on grip strength and will try without a rest (again) later this year.

I also don't believe the really good shooters have their strong hand loose as a goose. I think most have decent grip strength and use something like 75% of the available grip, which still lets them have a smooth trigger press. Look at pictures of most any top shooter (regardless of division) and the forearm muscles of their strong hand are clearly flexed from a fair amount of grip effort.

Here's a pic of BJ Norris that's pretty clear. You can see he's cranking down hard with the support hand (red/white fingertips) and there's a lot of tension in his strong hand, with a reasonable amount of tension visible in his strong hand forearm:

Dave S....also quite a bit of tension showing in the strong hand forearm:

[Aloha Robert]

Just pull the trigger straight to the rear of the gun without moving the sights. Ultimately grip has no effect on accuracy...you can shoot accurately with the gun turned upside down pulling the trigger with your pinky. A solid grip and stance is one of the most important aspects of shooting quickly.

The accuracy problem is a trigger control issue. Bottom line is the reason you are missing is because you are moving the sights before the bullet has exited the barrel.

Amen to that!

I think both of the above are absolutely correct. But how to do it is somewhat of a can of worms and you will hear a lot of opinions on the HOW to execute it. My 2 cents is , If you are shooting in Open, this is tons easier to do and faster, if you have a *thumb rest [generic]* or properly fitted Thumb rest. It makes it a lot easier to control almost ALL of the recoil with weak hand so trigger hand can be loose as a goose and execute a proper trigger pull without moving sights while breaking the shot.

I'll preface this by saying I use a thumb rest on my Open guns, but many people who know a lot about this think they actually weaken your support hand grip because they don't typically allow your hand to cam forward as much as without a rest. In the class I took with Manny Bragg he said the overwhelming majority of folks he sees with thumb rests are getting inconsistent dot tracking due to pushing on the rest. I don't think I actively push on it, but I might resist against it, and we didn't find my dot tracking worse with the rest. I'm working on grip strength and will try without a rest (again) later this year.

I also don't believe the really good shooters have their strong hand loose as a goose. I think most have decent grip strength and use something like 75% of the available grip, which still lets them have a smooth trigger press. Look at pictures of most any top shooter (regardless of division) and the forearm muscles of their strong hand are clearly flexed from a fair amount of grip effort.

Here's a pic of BJ Norris that's pretty clear. You can see he's cranking down hard with the support hand (red/white fingertips) and there's a lot of tension in his strong hand, with a reasonable amount of tension visible in his strong hand forearm:

Dave S....also quite a bit of tension showing in the strong hand forearm:

Those are great pics, and G Man is right, many of top shooters do have the proverbial blacksmith forearms that give them enough surplus strength to execute a physiologically inefficient method. However most shooters dont have all the extra strength to waste, nor do they need too.

G Man is also right some type of thumb rests dont help and in fact hinder grip. The reason is they give you the worst of both worlds, no cam forward ability to control while simultaneously nullifying the potential advantage of controlling recoil using efficient position such as *thumb rest [generic]* or some Thumbrests mounted sufficiently back.

If you "rest your thumb" you dont gain much of anything and can defeat the optimum position.

I suspect Manny Bragg's comments about inconssitant dot tracking with pushing is due to the wrong equipment and conept on how to use it. The *thumb rest [generic]* solves that problem automatically and actually decreases dot movement and makes it more consistent and also solves the steering problem. If the Thumb rest is mounted too far forward as are most of the shooters guns I see, You can indeed get those problems. With a *thumb rest [generic]* or properly fitted Thumbrest you dont "push", instead, you grip with your thumb and opposing finger. Although at first it may feel like pushing, after short time you are not "pushing". you are "gripping". Thumb pressure does not conciously pulse during shots. It subconciously takes care of recoil on its own because the brain will learn thumb is met my equal and opposite resistance, so there is no concious "push" as that does lead to inconsistency. After a few mags you can learn the opposable force method and there is much less dot movement, and become very consistant.

That being said, it is simply a physiologic fact you can have finer and faster motor control in a looser hand (or any other muscle really). The reason is the way the hand is neurologically wired and anatomically connected. In plain language, it extremely difficult to use high or max force with middle, ring, and pinky while simultaneously maintaining fine motor control with index finger because you cant keep the index (trigger) finger loose and fast while the others are in max flexion strength (griping).

Another topic related but longer to describe, is that many top shooters use forced shoulder adduction to press on both side of gun at same time with the aim of reducing flip and/or getting more consistent front sight movement. This is the classic technique and requires lots of strength in both arms to push on both sides of pistol, but I think there are better ways.

Edited June 29, 2010 by Aloha Robert

[Singlestack]

This thread is not about "thumb rests". Back on topic please.

[Dancin Dan]

Pavlovian technique: Every time you catch yourself doing that, set the gun down immediately, lay your hand flat on a table, and smack the offending digit with a hammer, HARD! It won't take long to unlearn, if you stick with the technique.

Other than that, it's just gonna take time and concious thought about not wrapping your finger around like you have been doing.

ME LIKIE

[2alpha]

Technically, in Brians' book, there is no such thing as "Muscle Memeory", as your muscles don't think, only your brain does....

I don't believe in muscle memory either, it's all in your head. Temporary solution to sticking that weak hand index finger around the trigger guard is to tape it to your "social" finger. A couple of rounds in a couple of places with some good adhesive tape should do it. Eventually you'll break the habit.

I believe that trigger control is definitely tied into grip. If you have enough time to compensate for a bad grip you can still get a decent trigger pull, but since that's not the game we play you need a consistent grip that gives control of recoil and trigger. JM2C

[CiDirkona]

This sounds like a lot of what's in "With Winning in Mind" -- transferring motions to the subconscious mind. You don't think about walking, but you can control your feet when you want to. To retrain your feet to walk in a different way takes time and intentional repetition.

[Jake Di Vita]

I don't believe in muscle memory either, it's all in your head.

That's not entirely accurate.

With repetitive motion your central nervous system does become more efficient at firing the required muscles for an activity.

Another phrase for this phenomenon is "greasing the groove."

[kevinj308]

I don't believe in muscle memory either, it's all in your head.

That's not entirely accurate.

With repetitive motion your central nervous system does become more efficient at firing the required muscles for an activity.

Another phrase for this phenomenon is "greasing the groove."

Yep. I suggest reading "The Talent Code" by Daniel Coyle. It pertains directly to the OP. One of the most useful books I've ever read.

Kevin

[benos]

I don't believe in muscle memory either, it's all in your head.

That's not entirely accurate.

With repetitive motion your central nervous system does become more efficient at firing the required muscles for an activity.

Another phrase for this phenomenon is "greasing the groove."

Yep. I suggest reading "The Talent Code" by Daniel Coyle. It pertains directly to the OP. One of the most useful books I've ever read.

Kevin

I will heartily second that.

be