Divisionless concept

[dcloudy777]

Okay, so I'm thinking way outside the box here, probably been out in the sun too long today. It seems like a huge percentage of 3-gun shooters shoot "tac optics", and this is starting to result, IMHO, in the "McRifle" for 3-gun. When I went to the first Benning shoot, I saw all sorts of guns, optics, mounts, etc... now not so much, it's getting pretty homogeneous. How about a big match run like this:

Heads-up competition, one big division (or maybe 2, more on that later), everyone shoots and is scored together, regardless of equipment. However, various firearm features are worth one or more "points". All of a competitor's 3 guns have to conform to a total point maximum, or perhaps you could have a "5 point division" and a "10 point division", or whatever. For example (meaningless numbers, naturally the actual values can be tweaked):

non-magnified optic: 1 point

magnified optic : 2 points

bipod : 1 point

detachable magzine : 1 point

comp/brake: : 1 point

.45 (pistol)/.308 : -1 point

and so forth... I think it would be fun to see different equipment setups again. Any comments?

DanO

[smokshwn]

Other than "seeing" different setups, why is it that you think people should change their equipment. Not many MLB players are using paddles for the spectators fun.

Very often you will here the phrase "Let the mission drive the gear".

IMO the TacOptic 3 gun rifle of an 18"-20" rifle with a good comp, rifle length gas system, and a 1-4x variable optic is simply the logical/natural progression to building a competitive rifle for 3gun. The fact that so many shooters are running similar setups could be a strong indication that those very setups are the best combination of features for the game.

Edited June 14, 2010 by smokshwn

[el pres]

Other than "seeing" different setups, why is it that you think people should change their equipment. Not many MLB players are using paddles for the spectators fun.

Very often you will here the phrase "Let the mission drive the gear".

IMO the TacOptic 3 gun rifle of an 18"-20" rifle with a good comp, rifle length gas system, and a 1-4x variable optic is simply the logical/natural progression to building a competitive rifle for 3gun. The fact that so many shooters are running similar setups could be a strong indication that those very setups are the best combination of features for the game.

Uhhh ... then why do you shoot Open ??

[dcloudy777]

I think the biggest "upside" would be the inclusion of gear that would normally bump a shooter into open. Wanna run your Saiga with a red dot? Go ahead, but leave the comp off of your rifle and shoot a .45ACP handgun. Think a "two-optic" rifle is the cat's ass? Run a pump shotgun and we'll call it even. The point about the evolution of the 3-gun rifle is a good one. The crucible of competition has refined the rifle to near perfection. The problem is, any sort of "better mousetrap" with the pistol or shotgun bumps you into open. A match like this one might encourage more experimentation with equipment, especially the shotgun.

DanO

[bigbrowndog]

is this topic about a match run on the divisionless concept or about the lack of various equipment???

A divisionless match would probably best be run with open or slightly open gear, also when was the last time you shot FB3G?? the TO division was in its early days made up of people that "thought" a red dot optic was the way to go and then they added magnifiers, which made way to low power 1-4x optics, which is currently mutating into 1.1-6 or 8x optics. This is also being driven by MD's that want to utilize longer and longer distances without increasing target size or improving target visibility. It is also having the effect of driving shooters out of the traditional iron sight divisions and into the optic divisions.

Trapr

[mlmiller1]

DanO,

It is an interesting idea but after thinking about it awhile, you are basically replacing one type of divisional match with another. People will still move to what works best for them. The majority of folks shoot tac/optic because they are uncomfortable or unable or don't like to shoot iron sights at distance on a rifle or they shoot open due to vision problems or because it really is faster. Some folks won't shoot open because of the cost.

Seems to me you would need to work so hard to add or subtract points, the return investment would not be worth it. If I shoot all irons, I want points in exchange for them in a substantial amount to be worth the extra time. Open guys would not want to lose pts for shooting a faster system just so you were leveling the playing field.

IOW, you might could do it but there would be plenty of complaining from the get go & to what real end?

Good luck if you try it!

MLM

[mlmiller1]

Trapr got his reply in while I was typing. I also agree with him on what most MD's are doing. Probably they do that not with the intent of driving off iron sights but with no regard for iron shooters. Most MD's don't shoot irons so with regard to that, irons don't matter to them. If a person shoots exclusively in one division, the matches they set & run favor that division. Why would you give a care about irons if you shoot open? You wouldn't & then when an iron shooter asks you questions, you give 'em the "shoot the match or don't, I don't care" attitude. Not enough iron shooters to matter to the MD's, really. That is what is driving the nails in the iron sight coffin, I'm afraid.

MLM

[jar]

It's a cool concept, but the problem is, I doubt most shooters will set up special gear for just one match.

[Chills1994]

@ dcloudy777.... I'll have to send you a PM.

[twodownzero]

I'd rather see it be three separate matches, with all USPSA divisions represented with pistols, and then figuring out rifle/shotgun separately. I don't like shooting my limited gun with major loads separately, or having to bring a .45 single stack to shoot heavy metal.

[Charles Bond]

is this topic about a match run on the divisionless concept or about the lack of various equipment???

A divisionless match would probably best be run with open or slightly open gear, also when was the last time you shot FB3G?? the TO division was in its early days made up of people that "thought" a red dot optic was the way to go and then they added magnifiers, which made way to low power 1-4x optics, which is currently mutating into 1.1-6 or 8x optics. This is also being driven by MD's that want to utilize longer and longer distances without increasing target size or improving target visibility. It is also having the effect of driving shooters out of the traditional iron sight divisions and into the optic divisions.

Trapr

If the iron sight shooters like a match, everyone is happy.

If you host any match that the C and B shooters like, everyone is happy.

If you host a match where everyone is happy, there are so many posts here you turn away people.

[Bryan 45]

Fact of the matter is we have a LOT of choices now.

You want to shoot a iron sight .308, a 9x19 hi cap and a pump gun- shoot tac irons.

You want to shoot a scoped .223, single stack .45, and a auto 20 gauge- shoot tac optics.

You want to shoot a scoped .308, revolver, and a Saiga- shoot open.

The only thing that is going to change the prevalent equipment is for the winners of matches to use something different. No need to force them to change just for the sake of change.

I'm going to keep shooting Irons even if it's in a division of 1!

[Alaskapopo]

I like the idea of a tactical match. Meaning anything that would work in real life and that is practical is allowed. So no open pistols. Pistols must either be concealed or in a police or military duty rig. Rifles and shotguns would be pretty much anything goes as long as you can lug it around and shoot the courses with it. I would make some small tight courses to simulate a building entry. So those 20 inch guns would take a heavy penalty in practicality.

Pat

[bigbrowndog]

Pat, you're saying one thing and implementing another, its either run whatever you want or not, you say an Open pistol is not tactical and yet there are instances where compensated, optically sighted, or lasered guns are used?????? You say you would intentionally build a COF that would make a 20" long gun a disadvantage????? then you should intentionally do the same for a short gun, but despite that the overall length of a 20" or 18" rifle is much closer to the overall length of the 14" SG that you used to tout so highly, than you think.

Trapr

[AlamoShooter]

I like the idea of a tactical match. Meaning anything that would work in real life and that is practical is allowed. So no open pistols. Pistols must either be concealed or in a police or military duty rig. Rifles and shotguns would be pretty much anything goes as long as you can lug it around and shoot the courses with it. I would make some small tight courses to simulate a building entry. So those 20 inch guns would take a heavy penalty in practicality.

Pat

"So No Open pistols" Why?

I remember seeing a video post of one of the "Euro" Tac respond /swat team that all shot Open handguns . = and why concealed ?

Edited June 15, 2010 by AlamoShooter

[Charles Bond]

I like the idea of a tactical match. Meaning anything that would work in real life and that is practical is allowed. So no open pistols. Pistols must either be concealed or in a police or military duty rig. Rifles and shotguns would be pretty much anything goes as long as you can lug it around and shoot the courses with it. I would make some small tight courses to simulate a building entry. So those 20 inch guns would take a heavy penalty in practicality.

Pat

"So No Open pistols" Why?

I remember seeing a video post of one of the "Euro" Tac respond /swat team that all shot Open handguns . = and why concealed ?

And let us not forget that not too long ago the standard issue battle rifle did not have optics. You can say what you want but electronic sighting deviecs for pisols are tactical, they are practical and becoming more so daily.

[sono]

Divisionless sure I'll show up with a iron sighted rifle and the pistol for either major or just a 9mm. Like Mr. Bond stated earlier good matches get full. I like seeing all the equipment and how different people run it. I don't care about divisions only the quality of the match. There are some scoring systems I don't like, but I play by the rules and don't grip. This is supposed to be fun usualy.

[el pres]

Is'nt Larue some sort of a divisionless match ? I dont care for all of the different rule ideas, everyone has an idea of how it should be. If you want to start a new match with your own crazy rules then by all means start one and see if anyone shows up ? Usually new ideas like some on this thread stem from the personal lack of putting in the hard work,"practicing". It's very popular these days in life to dumb down, handicap, the competition to your level, it's the lazy way !!

However I do like the idea of having a Limited, Open, or TacOp, "only" match once or twice a year. It would be great fun, like the upcoming Production Handgun Challenge. I'll have to bet though that the same guys come up on top as usual ...just a guess.

Edited June 16, 2010 by el pres

[Alaskapopo]

Pat, you're saying one thing and implementing another, its either run whatever you want or not, you say an Open pistol is not tactical and yet there are instances where compensated, optically sighted, or lasered guns are used?????? You say you would intentionally build a COF that would make a 20" long gun a disadvantage????? then you should intentionally do the same for a short gun, but despite that the overall length of a 20" or 18" rifle is much closer to the overall length of the 14" SG that you used to tout so highly, than you think.

Trapr

The following is just my opinion and not meant to insult or annoy anyone.

First off with open pistols. I have hosted and like hosting matches where people would use the gear at the match they would in real life. Rather that be as a police officer, military soldier or as a private citizen defending his home or carrying concealed in public. Open pistols are not practical at all for self defense or for military and police use. They are fragile, generally un reliable but duty gun standards. Worst yet un safe for real use. In real life you are often forced to fire your pistol close to your body in a weapon retention position. Do this with a ported gun and your vision and face is going to be in jeopardy due to the ports. I won't allow any of my officers to carry ported pistols. Many departments agree. Open pistols exist because of the game and the game only. I want a tactical match so they would have no place.

Now about short usable guns. The average patrol rifle shooting in LEO work is 25 yards. The longest shot I may have ever had to take but did not was a stand off in a national park at just under 200 yards with a armed man. That was once in 10 years. The average sniper shot in LEO work is 55 yards. The longest in history is just over 400 yards. As cops we find ourselves doing entries far more than we are on perimeter with a threat over 200 yards away. Inside of 200 yards the short guns rule. They also rule when you are maneuvering around inside a trailer house or other redneck home with meth lab inside. There is a reason that leo's have moved away from rifles and towards carbines. They are handier and easier to use in the spaces we have to use them. So I would like to design courses that reflect that reality.

My duty shotgun is a 14 inch vang. My patrol rifle is a 14.5 inch Noveske. My 14 inch vang is almost the same overall length as my Noveske. Not sure where you got your figures.

Most three gun matches are for fun and that wonderful. But I would like to design a realistic one using realistic gear. I usually do one or two tactical matches a year and the rest are regular USPSA style three guns with the normal divisions.

[Alaskapopo]

I like the idea of a tactical match. Meaning anything that would work in real life and that is practical is allowed. So no open pistols. Pistols must either be concealed or in a police or military duty rig. Rifles and shotguns would be pretty much anything goes as long as you can lug it around and shoot the courses with it. I would make some small tight courses to simulate a building entry. So those 20 inch guns would take a heavy penalty in practicality.

Pat

"So No Open pistols" Why?

I remember seeing a video post of one of the "Euro" Tac respond /swat team that all shot Open handguns . = and why concealed ?

And let us not forget that not too long ago the standard issue battle rifle did not have optics. You can say what you want but electronic sighting deviecs for pisols are tactical, they are practical and becoming more so daily.

I have to disagree optics on pistols are not yet practical and they certainly are not tactical. The mini red dots break in short order when mounted to the slide. When frame mounted the optics are way too big and make concealing the pistol impossible and they are not durable enough to be relied upon for typical patrol duties. Optics on rifles and shotguns are far more durable and reliable. As for what the European tac teams do I really don't care. Generally they are not at the level of the best USA teams. The French use 357 mag revolvers. They have some weird ideas over there.

Pat

Edited June 16, 2010 by Alaskapopo

[Merlin Orr]

I like the idea of a tactical match. Meaning anything that would work in real life and that is practical is allowed. So no open pistols. Pistols must either be concealed or in a police or military duty rig. Rifles and shotguns would be pretty much anything goes as long as you can lug it around and shoot the courses with it. I would make some small tight courses to simulate a building entry. So those 20 inch guns would take a heavy penalty in practicality.

Pat

Are you wanting to change 3 Gun into a paramilitary training exercise? But...Maybe you are on to something..... that would draw those of similar mindset. I think you should host/MD a major match and let the numbers tell the story.

Perhaps there would be a big turn out........

It seems to me that you see more stuff adapted by the military and LEO that were created in the competition environment than military and LEO stuff being adapted by competitive shooters.

[bigbrowndog]

Pat the difference between a 14" SG and a 20" or 18" AR not your AR or you SG,.....is what maybe 3 or 4" this is the difference I am refering to. Since we are showing pics here is where I get my info from, a Nova showing where a 14" barrel would be and a project 18" AR, notice the similarities in length.

[bigbrowndog]

here is the whole shot so you can see I'm not fudging on the OAL

[Alaskapopo]

Pat the difference between a 14" SG and a 20" or 18" AR not your AR or you SG,.....is what maybe 3 or 4" this is the difference I am refering to. Since we are showing pics here is where I get my info from, a Nova showing where a 14" barrel would be and a project 18" AR, notice the similarities in length.

Its about 4 inches and 4 inches is a lot when you are moving in and around confined areas. It can be done with longer guns but its more work. Carbines are much handier. Again that is the reason why the military and leo's have moved away from rifles. Rifles have the edge at long range of course but that is not where most of our engagements are at.

Pat

[bigbrowndog]

pat come on now, if 4" was a lot, there'd be a maximum size requirement for cops????

besides, there is not 4" of difference between the 18" gun in the pic and the nova at 14", and there would not be 4" difference in a 20" gun as well.

Trapr