pushing the gun down during rapid fire

[Field]

ive videotaped myself a few times doing basic shooting drills, and amazingly.....there are some little things ive noticed.

2 big ones:

i look...tense. especially when trying to do things fast. my face will look kind of grimaced, my shoulders look kind of tight, i will especially notice shoulder tension when starting to execute a reload, there is something going on there. people have said ''smooth is fast'' but sometimes i dont think ive mastered this concept, when forcing yourself to go faster you generally get a bit tense. its really hard not to.

when doing rapid fire like with a bill drill i always seem to push the gun down a bit and shoot low. the idea occured to me, something probably very obvious and natural to better shooters... would be simply 'holding' the gun and letting the sights return by themselves.. haaa.. oh boy. but then still i think you just gotta practice that. but then i read about some dudes saying how the load being shot and the recoil spring weight in your gun will effect how your sights return back after each shot. very deep stuff.

Edited June 12, 2010 by Field

[Pat Miles]

As far as pushing the gun down and getting low hits. You are anticipating the recoil. It is a natural reaction. You mind knows that the gun is going to rise on recoil so it tells your body to react just the opposite and push the gun down and try to counteract the muzzle rise. That would be great if you could time everything perfectly every time you light off a round but you can't. If you want to prove it to yourself do a "ball and dummy" drill. Load up some dummy rounds (25),obviously without powder and primers. Have a friend go with you when you practice and have him/her load a magazine with real rounds and dummies. When you squeeze the trigger on a dummy you will be amazed how much you push the gun down. Incorporate the B & D drill in your practice sessions until you no longer push the gun down and just press the trigger back even when the gun doesn't go bang.

Adios,

Pat

[GrumpyOne]

As far as pushing the gun down and getting low hits. You are anticipating the recoil. It is a natural reaction. You mind knows that the gun is going to rise on recoil so it tells your body to react just the opposite and push the gun down and try to counteract the muzzle rise. That would be great if you could time everything perfectly every time you light off a round but you can't. If you want to prove it to yourself do a "ball and dummy" drill. Load up some dummy rounds (25),obviously without powder and primers. Have a friend go with you when you practice and have him/her load a magazine with real rounds and dummies. When you squeeze the trigger on a dummy you will be amazed how much you push the gun down. Incorporate the B & D drill in your practice sessions until you no longer push the gun down and just press the trigger back even when the gun doesn't go bang.

Adios,

Pat

That is a very good technique. It really shows how much the gun moves when you don't even light off a round. The gun should suprise you when the shot breaks, that way there is not "flinch" or anticipation. Try pulling the trigger as slow as possible, concentrate on just pulling it slowly, all while keeping the site on target. The break should suprise you.

[G-ManBart]

simply 'holding' the gun and letting the sights return by themselves.. haaa.. oh boy. but then still i think you just gotta practice that.

I wouldn't suggest practicing that at all...it works for bullseye, but not what we do. The very best shooters are gripping the heck out of the gun. Look at pictures of them shooting and you'll see the muscles in their forearms are very, very defined, because they're gripping the gun pretty hard. Obviously, you can grip the gun harder with the support hand, but the dominant hand is still probably gripping at something like 70% (will vary for every individual). R,

[G-ManBart]

The break should suprise you.

That's true of bullseye shooting, or maybe a really long, hard shot in one of our matches, but not when you're shooting fast. Try doing that on a fast swinger and see how it works out for you. You absolutely need to have the skill developed to make the gun go off when you see what you need to see (acceptable sight picture) if you want to do well in our sport. You see what you need, the shot breaks, but it certainly isn't surprising you. R,

[GrumpyOne]

The break should suprise you.

That's true of bullseye shooting, or maybe a really long, hard shot in one of our matches, but not when you're shooting fast. Try doing that on a fast swinger and see how it works out for you. You absolutely need to have the skill developed to make the gun go off when you see what you need to see (acceptable sight picture) if you want to do well in our sport. You see what you need, the shot breaks, but it certainly isn't surprising you. R,

Bart, I wasn't talking about during a match, just in practice, to get over him pushing the gun down. Nowhere in my post did I say "during a match" nor did I say "when you are shooting fast".

Edited June 13, 2010 by GrumpyOne

[G-ManBart]

The break should suprise you.

That's true of bullseye shooting, or maybe a really long, hard shot in one of our matches, but not when you're shooting fast. Try doing that on a fast swinger and see how it works out for you. You absolutely need to have the skill developed to make the gun go off when you see what you need to see (acceptable sight picture) if you want to do well in our sport. You see what you need, the shot breaks, but it certainly isn't surprising you. R,

Bart, I wasn't talking about during a match, just in practice, to get over him pushing the gun down. Nowhere in my post did I say "during a match" nor did I say "when you are shooting fast".

The OP was talking about an issue when shooting fast...rapid fire, bill drills etc and Pat recommended the ball/dummy drill, which you agreed with and you added that the break should surprise you.

The problem with that is, he never said he had an issue when shooting slowly, only when shooting fast

For the OP, a little more on the ball/dummy drill idea:

The ball and dummy drill only works in a very narrow range, and not particularly well (or at all) for what we do shooting at speed. Take the best GM you can find and slip a dummy round in their mag and when they get to it, they'll about fall over when the gun doesn't go off and they push forward. The difference is that their push is a post-ignition push (bullet is gone) and people with the low shot problem have a pre-ignition push. You can tell a pre-ignition push during slow fire with the ball and dummy drill, but it's exceedingly difficult to tell whether it's a pre-ignition push or post-ignition push when the shooter is going fast. If you could get super slow motion video, you could tell, but not likely live or normal speed video because it simply happens too fast, i.e. was it a hundredth of a second before or after ignition.

When we have new trainees that run into the pre-ignition push problem (shooting fast), we put them on a system with a set of glasses that have a video lens built into them. We have them shoot a few shots, then let them watch it in super slow motion. They see the gun dip down (and a bit towards the support hand side usually) just before the shot breaks.

There are a number of drills to use to help folks with this, but it's way easier to fix when they've seen it happen through their own perspective, just in slow motion. Essentially, they (you) need to learn to track the front sight/call the shot. If someone is tracking the front sight, they'll KNOW it when they have a pre-ignition push because they'll see where the front sight was when the gun went off, and it wasn't on the intended target. It's a lot easier to fix something you've seen happen! R,

Edited June 13, 2010 by G-ManBart

[Dancin Dan]

The break should suprise you.

That's true of bullseye shooting, or maybe a really long, hard shot in one of our matches, but not when you're shooting fast. Try doing that on a fast swinger and see how it works out for you. You absolutely need to have the skill developed to make the gun go off when you see what you need to see (acceptable sight picture) if you want to do well in our sport. You see what you need, the shot breaks, but it certainly isn't surprising you. R,

The only time a shot ever surprised me in this sport, it was an AD!

[Will_M]

So a post ignition push is ok? After really getting comfortable with my gun, I thought I was flinching so I tried the ball and dummy drill.

I WAS dipping the gun down, but it didn't feel like a flinch. I could DEFINITELY detect a moment after the sear released the striker and THEN the gun would dip.

Am I making sense? And this is acceptable? Or even desirable?

[Dancin Dan]

So a post ignition push is ok? After really getting comfortable with my gun, I thought I was flinching so I tried the ball and dummy drill.

I WAS dipping the gun down, but it didn't feel like a flinch. I could DEFINITELY detect a moment after the sear released the striker and THEN the gun would dip.

Am I making sense? And this is acceptable? Or even desirable?

That is recoil anticipation and not a flinch. A flinch takes place before the shot goes off. Most good shooters will do the same thing, if when shooting a stage and the gun does not go off for what ever reason.

[benos]

On the pre vs. post ignition flinch, a seasoned veteran with a good eye can tell by watching a shooter's gun track if he is shooting with a pre or a post-ignition "flinch."

That master's post-ignition flinch allows his gun to track smoothly and consistently, while the beginner's pre-ignition flinch will make the gun track and look choppy.

be

[Pat Miles]

The ball and dummy drill WILL show any shooter they are anticipating the recoil.

As far as flinch, if you cannot recall seeing the sights/dot rise and fall after the shot you are very probably flinching. Two very different problems that need to be corrected.

Adios,

Pat

[old506]

I am a new shooter and am getting ready to shoot my first match. I'm using my husbands account. I have the same problem of a pre-ignition push down flintch but my problem occurs during slow fire speed. At fast(er) speed the flintch significantly lessens but is still present. I am wondering if there are any tips or drills other than using the dummy rounds.

The break should suprise you.

That's true of bullseye shooting, or maybe a really long, hard shot in one of our matches, but not when you're shooting fast. Try doing that on a fast swinger and see how it works out for you. You absolutely ne.ed to have the skill developed to make the gun go off when you see what you need to see (acceptable sight pict(er)ure) if you want to do well in our sport. You see what you need, the shot breaks, but it certainly isn't surprising you. R,

Bart, I wasn't talking about during a match, just in practice, to get over him pushing the gun down. Nowhere in my post did I say "during a match" nor did I say "when you are shooting fast".

The OP was talking about an issue when shooting fast...rapid fire, bill drills etc and Pat recommended the ball/dummy drill, which you agreed with and you added that the break should surprise you.

The problem with that is, he never said he had an issue when shooting slowly, only when shooting fast

For the OP, a little more on the ball/dummy drill idea:

The ball and dummy drill only works in a very narrow range, and not particularly well (or at all) for what we do shooting at speed. Take the best GM you can find and slip a dummy round in their mag and when they get to it, they'll about fall over when the gun doesn't go off and they push forward. The difference is that their push is a post-ignition push (bullet is gone) and people with the low shot problem have a pre-ignition push. You can tell a pre-ignition push during slow fire with the ball and dummy drill, but it's exceedingly difficult to tell whether it's a pre-ignition push or post-ignition push when the shooter is going fast. If you could get super slow motion video, you could tell, but not likely live or normal speed video because it simply happens too fast, i.e. was it a hundredth of a second before or after ignition.

When we have new trainees that run into the pre-ignition push problem (shooting fast), we put them on a system with a set of glasses that have a video lens built into them. We have them shoot a few shots, then let them watch it in super slow motion. They see the gun dip down (and a bit towards the support hand side usually) just before the shot breaks.

There are a number of drills to use to help folks with this, but it's way easier to fix when they've seen it happen through their own perspective, just in slow motion. Essentially, they (you) need to learn to track the front sight/call the shot. If someone is tracking the front sight, they'll KNOW it when they have a pre-ignition push because they'll see where the front sight was when the gun went off, and it wasn't on the intended target. It's a lot easier to fix something you've seen happen! R,

[G-ManBart]

The ball and dummy drill WILL show any shooter they are anticipating the recoil.

As far as flinch, if you cannot recall seeing the sights/dot rise and fall after the shot you are very probably flinching. Two very different problems that need to be corrected.

Adios,

Pat

Pat, I get to see a lot of folks fight this. Some years it may be hundreds of shooters and other years only multiple dozens.

I can't tell you how many times people master the ball and dummy drill and immediately go back to a pre-ignition push as soon as they shoot live fire at any reasonable pace faster than maybe one shot per second.

When I'm shooting at speed, and the gun is tracking properly, I'm anticipating the recoil and countering it by pushing forward, I'm just doing it after ignition. Again, we've all seen really good shooters have their gun jam, or have a dud...and when it happens they lurch forward, quite hard. They were anticipating the recoil that never happened.

[G-ManBart]

I am a new shooter and am getting ready to shoot my first match. I'm using my husbands account. I have the same problem of a pre-ignition push down flintch but my problem occurs during slow fire speed. At fast(er) speed the flintch significantly lessens but is still present. I am wondering if there are any tips or drills other than using the dummy rounds.

I'll try to find a link to the thread where we talked about that, and I've got a few things written down I can add/compare...I'll try to find them tomorrow. R,

[Will_M]

Thanks Bart!

[XRe]

Another name for "post-ignition flinch" is ... TIMING.

G-Man is correct that most of us are gripping the gun pretty firmly - the trick is to avoid letting that tension travel any further up the arm than the forearm muscles that are used to create the grip pressure. Your upper arms and shoulders should still be loose and relaxed (well, they shouldn't be rock hard tense, anyway). Trying to describe the grip as some percentage of grip force is a losing proposition, as it's subjective - what feels like 70/30 to me feels like 50/50 to someone else, etc. To avoid that tension traveling up the arm, you probably want to be at 80% of your maximum grip strength or less in each hand - the distribution of grip pressure from there depends upon the shooter's subjective feel, but you really want that strong hand relaxed-ish so that your trigger finger is free to move quickly and accurately. The only way to effectively increase grip pressure from that point is to improve your overall grip strength - as that rises, so does that 80% mark (in terms of absolute pressure you can exert on the gun, not the subjective "feels like I'm doing X amount" measure).

I hate that "smooth is fast" phrase. It frequently comes with the "slow is smooth" phrase, too. No, slow is slow. Speed comes from efficiency, lack of excessive tension (mental and physical), and performing with a sense of urgency. "Smooth" equals "efficient" - "smooth" is not slow or fast, it is just that... smooth.

[G-ManBart]

Another name for "post-ignition flinch" is ... TIMING.

Dude, from here on out, I'm going to switch from using the term "timing drills" to calling them "post-ignition flinch" drills!

Okay, let's all work on our PIFs

[Will_M]

Thanks guys. Oh and I like this

"Smooth" equals "efficient" - "smooth" is not slow or fast, it is just that... smooth.

[XRe]

Dude, from here on out, I'm going to switch from using the term "timing drills" to calling them "post-ignition flinch" drills!

Okay, let's all work on our PIFs

It sounds just like some of these tactical trainers making up multiple-word terms for simple one word concepts... "Gunfight" becomes "Dynamic Critical Incident"...

[G-ManBart]

I am a new shooter and am getting ready to shoot my first match. I'm using my husbands account. I have the same problem of a pre-ignition push down flintch but my problem occurs during slow fire speed. At fast(er) speed the flintch significantly lessens but is still present. I am wondering if there are any tips or drills other than using the dummy rounds.

Okay, here's the writeup (I'll still look for the link)....your mileage may vary!

Pre-ignition push correction:

First off, I’ll say that different things are going to work for different people, so what I suggest may or may not help, but it’s worth exploring. I can say that some variation or combination of these has always worked when I’ve had someone who really wanted to get better. Further, I'm certainly no Benos, or other amazing shooter, so take this for what it's worth, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last week at Area-5

Whenever possible, if I’m helping someone with a pre-ignition push, I like to have them shoot a .22lr. I normally work with folks who are already at the range and may have just shot poorly on a qualification course. In other words, they’re warmed up and doing whatever it is that’s causing the problem by the time we talk. If I’m going to work with someone at the start of the day I’ll let them shoot a bit to show me the problem. At that point I’ll hand them a .22 and, if possible, have them shoot a group off a rest. Normally the very first shot will be a pre-ignition push, that’s really obvious, and they’ll say something like “oh, that’s what I’m doing wrong”. Essentially, that’s the first time they’ve ever called a shot. It didn’t go where they wanted it to, but at least they know where it went. They may have been “flinching” for years and simply didn’t know what it looked like. After that I’ll let them shoot a couple of magazines (still with the .22) to get comfortable and maybe have them shoot a freestyle group or two from 25yds so they see it’s actually easy to keep all their hits inside something the size or our A-zone if you don’t have bad habits. At that point I’ll have them go back to their normal gun, and start with slower, controlled shots and have them work up in speed. Normally within a mag or two they’ll throw one low and left and they’ll look at me and say “I knew it”. That awareness is the key to fixing the problem….you’ve got to see it, to fix it. At the very least, at this point, they’re aware of the problem and know it when it happens.

As something of an aside, if they didn’t see it when they had the pre-ignition push with the .22, it means they’re blinking, and that’s a different problem….short answer, double plug/muff, stick with the .22 and have them think about the corners of their eyes while shooting the gun in the general vicinity of the target. Steel, or another reactive target (clay birds, etc) seems to help some folks with this as they want to see the hit so they’re less likely to blink. Indoors and loud guns (hey Open shooters!) make this worse.

Now they know what it looks like when things go wrong, and it’s time to work on making things go right…by learning to consistently call shots. I’ll have folks shoot at nothing but the backstop and have them track the front sight, i.e. don’t tell me where the shot went, tell me what the front sight did. I then like for them to shoot deliberate shots with the sights intentionally misaligned. Put a target at something like 15-20yds, and have them make the sight picture so the front sight appears to be nearly touching either side of the notch in the rear sight. Do the same with the front sight well above the top and well below the top of the rear sight…enough that you can see it’s high or low from the side. They’re usually pretty shocked that they get hits near the center of the target with the sights poorly aligned. Then I’ll have them shoot deliberate shots (start the trigger press and never stop until it breaks) while moving their hands in a circle (seems to usually be more of an oval) …imagine tracing a circle 5” in diameter around the A-zone with your front sight. Keep the hands moving as the shot breaks. Again, people are surprised how close to the center the hits are. All of this teaches the brain that if you have a decent trigger press, and even reasonably well aligned sights on the target, you’re going to get solid hits (for USPSA/IDPA type targets and distances). If you can hit the A-zone while making a 5” circle with the gun, you can certainly hit it if the gun is moving a tiny fraction of an inch in your wobble zone while holding it freestyle!

Now our shooter’s brain knows that the sights don’t have to be “perfect” to get a good hit up to a certain point. This is why a good shooter can rip off crazy fast splits on close targets. They learn that at something like 3-5yds, you only very generally need to see the sights aligned to get good hits….just a flash that everything is in sorta the right place and your brain will press the trigger for you. You will gradually learn how much you can and can not accept and still make the shot required at the moment.

I talk about this last part, because the vast majority of people I see struggling with this problem are stopping their trigger press to get the sights lined up “just right” and then accelerating/mashing through the trigger when things look perfect (snatching the shot). Once you stop the trigger press you are starting from zero and it’s similar to simply smashing the trigger from the fully forward/reset position…not quite as bad, but close to it. If you brain knows that the sight picture is acceptable, you can simply just press smoothly and let the hits happen even though visually the sights appear to be moving around a lot on the target.

To help with that last one, I’ll sometimes have people shoot with a target backwards “just hit the cardboard anywhere”….and since they’re not so focused on that one little spot in the center, and getting the sights perfectly aligned with it, they’ll shoot a nice group. When we teach low light we often get folks that shoot a fist-sized knot on their target and they can barely see the target…there’s a lesson in that!

There is one demonstration that I’ll do that doesn’t require a gun, and it proves that everyone is a “flincher”. I learned it from a guy in San Antonio who happened to have an Olympic Gold Medal for pistol shooting on his mantle….I may have to get someone to volunteer so we can video it and post it online. Basically, it involves me pushing on someone’s outstretched palm. I tell them I’m going to gently bump their hand…and I do that a few times until they get used to it. Then, while still talking, I miss their hand, and they about fall on their face. The next time, I tell them which time I’m going to miss and they still flinch a little. That’s what we’re dealing with when we shoot. Your body knows it’s going to get a push, and it wants to stay in balance, so it’s going to push back…you just have to make that happen after ignition and things will be great!

Edited June 17, 2010 by G-ManBart

[Aloha Robert]

For preignition flinch vs post ignition recoil management I agree with most of above. But there is another very common cause of low hits which is assoicated with tension. Most teaching is done to hold or grip the gun tightly which will just about guarantee a begginer low shots. The reason is hardwired physiolgical response. If you tense you strong hand to get a grip, then tell someone to pull a service pistol trigger somewhere in the neighborhood of 5# or so and you automatically get ulnar deviation of wrist. Complex reason but basically the hand wants to stay balanced with grip and very hard for novice to increase finger flexion of single digit (the trigger finger} with out the other fingers refexively flexing as well ergo, the pulled downward shot.

The solution to this is highly controversial, and the controvery begins with the grip itself. Classic old school, combat grip, thumbs forward or whatever you want to call it, naturally encourages very high tension therefor the comment about many top shooters have very strong forearms. But is almsot impossible for novice to put high flexion tension on digit 1,3,4 and 5 and make 2 (index finger loose), and then tell him to pull trigger without further increasing tension in remaining digits. It is not naturally physicologic and must be learned, and difficult because those same muscles share nerve impulses generated by nerve plexus in arm. The other muscles go off and result is radial deviation and low shot.

The other side of the controversy begins with a very loose grip with non dominant hand doing most of stabilization. It utilizes the left thumb and index to manage most of recoil. Then the dominant hand is loose and free and can make precise rapid trigger control easily without squeezing further with other fingers, thus avoiding the low shot. It easier in Open than limited because of aids you are allowed to use, but there are ways to apply the techniques without illegal aides.

BTW I LOVE "Smooth is fast" That was Jerry Barnhart's Mantra and arguably he was one of best shooters in world at his time, or maybe any time. Besides it's VERY zen and satisfying to be graceful with pistol in it's own right, even if you dont have a smoking run.

Edited June 17, 2010 by Aloha Robert

[38supPat]

Tension comes from whats in your head when the buzzer goes off. It's really easy to say where your grip tension should be but another matter entirely to do it under stress.

Brian has a real good post about placing attention:

http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=107670&st=0&p=1224692&hl=placing%20attention&fromsearch=1entry1224692

Use this to feel where and when the tension is during a string of fire. Most newbies will do the same thing most shooters will do. The buzzer goes off and they get a death grip on the gun with both hands. It takes a fair bit of practice and match shooting to get past this tendency, though it never really goes away entirely, it is a stress response. You need to learn to deal with the stress first.

Shoot some timing drills, shoot some groups, both off the bench and freestyle, and some simpl;e drills and see where the tension is. Pay attention to what you are feeling and how it affects you. Do you use the same grip to shoot 3 targets at 5m as you do 3 targets at 50m? TGO recently wrote that just as there are different trigger pulls for different shot difficulties there are different muzzle flip returns to go with them.

[askomiko]

Hey G-Man, that was a nuggett of gold, I've gotta try that with our club practise.

[lugnut]

Awesome stuff.