Growing Action Pistol

[Griz]

If the NRA was really interested in growing AP (and the Bianchi Cup), they should take a bottom up approach instead of the current top-down approach.

Do everything possible to promote local matches.

Take a page from Glock's marketing efforts and run a NRA AP circuit. Get sponsors to outfit a trailer with a couple of plate racks, some portable barricades and a portable mover. I can see it now, "The MidwayUSA AP tour" featuring the Safariland Barricades, the Sig-Saer Mover, the S&W plates and the Universal Gold and Bullion Practical. (See, I even remembered those logos from last week... instead of just 200 people, the sponsors could reach thousands of serious shooters).

Make information on setting up a match more readily available... (example, how do you build a barricade? How do you build a mover?) Maybe even line up "official" sources of the required range equipment.

The NRA could use some of their clout to help line up sponsors for State and Regional championships, maybe even offer NRA staff to help run championships.

The NRA could provide timely positive reinforcement to shooters in the form of official acknowledgment of distinguished points, national records, etc.

[edited out disrespectful comments)

Edited June 1, 2010 by Griz

[NRAActionPistol]

"Instead of goofing off for 9 months of the year, the NRA AP staff could get out there and earn their pay".

Due to lack of sleep and recovering from 2 weeks away from my home and family, I will not comment on this post, other then say, some people would probably want us to shoot for them as well.

This is the rudest post I have personally seen on here yet.

Good luck to you all!

Tom...

[Rolex]

WOW!

[gm iprod]

Griz,

I personally know how much effort Tom and his staff have put into the last year.

You do not get 30+ guns for the Bianchi Cup and the best turn out for years by goofing off.

He has always helped where and when he could, even from 1/2 the world away.

I suggest you reassess your comments and apologise.

[Griz]

"Instead of goofing off for 9 months of the year, the NRA AP staff could get out there and earn their pay".

Due to lack of sleep and recovering from 2 weeks away from my home and family, I will not comment on this post, other then say, some people would probably want us to shoot for them as well.

This is the rudest post I have personally seen on here yet.

Good luck to you all!

Tom...

I apologize. I should not have posted that. You've been very rude to me in the past and I should not have let my personal feelings corrupt a post that was intended to open a constructive discussion.

Edited June 1, 2010 by Griz

[Aglifter]

If action pistol has a 22 division, I could see it being more popular, but its a bit boring, to the general public, IMO. Now that I shoot more, I appreciate it, and think its very useful, but when I first started, IDPA seemed about ideal - get to run around, shoot from odd positions, and I only needed to come up w. 100 rounds of ammo, and 3 mags. It even fit, somewhat, into my "self-defense" mindset I had at the time.

Many people acquire hobbies at the College age - I think it would be an excellent idea if the shooting sports started really focusing on that age group, and part of that is going to be keeping things affordable for them. And, it has to be simple - I don't remember having too much of a problem finding 22, but for any other pistol caliber, it was pure luck to find any ammo, aside from 454 and 500.

[Chuck Anderson]

I love the idea of an AP Circuit similar to GSSF. I'm a big supporter of GSSF (running a match this weekend in Portland). I definitely would disagree that NRA has downtime. After seeing the amount of effor that went into this match, I'm sure it takes quite a while to get ready. There were also NRA staff there from all sorts of disciplines. I had dinner with the guy that runs the Black Powder Program. I think it was Larry Potterfield that mentioned that NRA hosts 46 (47?) National Championships each year. That is a truly impressive number. I can't imagine they have any downtime. But I wonder if a circuit like that could be self or mostly self supporting. GSSF is a money loser for Glock each year, but only because they are the only contributor to it. An AP circuit with some sponsorship from corporations, some from the NRA and a lot of grass roots help might be possible. I'd certainly be willing to give it a shot and if they need someone in Oregon to host an event I'm willing.

[Resjudicata]

This was my first time at the Bianchi Cup. However, I have some limited experience with running local USPSA clubs. That said, I'm quite sure the NRA folks worked their asses off on this match. This was more of an all inclusive event than USPSA Nationals was when I went. (This is not intended to denigrate USPSA or the people who run the Nationals). I am very impressed with the job they did.

If we really want to talk about constructive ideas I will throw mine out there. The traveling show sounds good to me but it would require a large outlay of time and money which probably isn't there. My suggestion would be to have the NRA try and help sponsor getting local clubs set up to run the four Bianchi stages. It seems that USPSA is trying to do this with the Steel Challenge. Maybe provide information and discount/monetary support for getting the plate racks purchased, barricades built, and mover built. Turning target stands are nice to have but not ultimately necessary. For many clubs it may also require building new berms that can be dedicated to AP use at the local ranges.

The NRA may already provide some support for this and I just don't know about it yet. But, if not then it may be a way to help support clubs and increase Cup turnout as well.

Chris

[Chuck Anderson]

NRA actually has a very generous grant program through Friends of NRA that would probably be more than willing to pony up some funds to help clubs get AP started or expand. If you hit up Tim Egan he has received a ton of money from the NRA for his home club, mainly for USPSA stuff. In fact the NRA donated money for the USPSA Juniors in Area 1. They get to shoot the match for free, attend a one day class and get shirts and ammo. I'm sure they'd be willing to help an NRA specific program as well. I don't entirely understand their grant program but Tim said it is a good program and works well.

[Allgoodhits]

This was my first time at the Bianchi Cup. However, I have some limited experience with running local USPSA clubs. That said, I'm quite sure the NRA folks worked their asses off on this match. This was more of an all inclusive event than USPSA Nationals was when I went. (This is not intended to denigrate USPSA or the people who run the Nationals). I am very impressed with the job they did.

If we really want to talk about constructive ideas I will throw mine out there. The traveling show sounds good to me but it would require a large outlay of time and money which probably isn't there. My suggestion would be to have the NRA try and help sponsor getting local clubs set up to run the four Bianchi stages. It seems that USPSA is trying to do this with the Steel Challenge. Maybe provide information and discount/monetary support for getting the plate racks purchased, barricades built, and mover built. Turning target stands are nice to have but not ultimately necessary. For many clubs it may also require building new berms that can be dedicated to AP use at the local ranges.

The NRA may already provide some support for this and I just don't know about it yet. But, if not then it may be a way to help support clubs and increase Cup turnout as well.

Chris

On that traveling show idea, others spoke of this a decade or so back and it died on the vine. I think there is more NRA AP interest today than there has been in years. It may work today.

Two portable barricades can work pretty well, and Secure Firearms had a pretty innovative plate rack on display at the Cup. The plates do not fall, but they would be good for the traveliing show type set up mentioned. The Mover presents the biggest obstacle as it requires setup and is subject to damage as it has mechanical and electrical components and generally more complexity for the traveling show set up, but it could be done.

We will see what developes over the next 7-8 months, but don't expect much until late fall or early winter as the NRA is busy doing there other matches beginning next month. The schedule or more appropriate the timing of the Bianchi Cup in May, may just be the biggest problem of all. Remember the NRA didn't set the original May dates, they inherited the May format when they took it over in c.1984.

It's a great match that could be even greater with better planning, cooperation, rules and maybe a schedule or venue change if needed as needed.

MJ

[Resjudicata]

I don't know that I would want to see a venue or date change.

I would like to see if it is possible to do it in three days rather than four. Two days of shooting and one day for the Shoot-off and awards. This would cut down on the number of days people have to take off work to shoot the event. I know that at least some folks don't shoot the cup simply because they can't take off most of a week of work. Whereas, running the match on Friday thru Sunday or even Thursday thru Sunday would allow more people the possibility of attending. It seems that some stages might be a bottle neck so it might not be possible without expanding to add more stage bays.

Just ideas. I had more and better ideas while I was in Columbia but I've slept since then and don't remember them. I do remember that they were good.

Chris

[Allgoodhits]

I don't know that I would want to see a venue or date change.

I would like to see if it is possible to do it in three days rather than four. Two days of shooting and one day for the Shoot-off and awards. This would cut down on the number of days people have to take off work to shoot the event. I know that at least some folks don't shoot the cup simply because they can't take off most of a week of work. Whereas, running the match on Friday thru Sunday or even Thursday thru Sunday would allow more people the possibility of attending. It seems that some stages might be a bottle neck so it might not be possible without expanding to add more stage bays.

Just ideas. I had more and better ideas while I was in Columbia but I've slept since then and don't remember them. I do remember that they were good.

Chris

The BC has grown into a hurry up and wait match and I am not sure how/why. Some aspects run very smoothly, while others are run as if it was the first time they ever heard of a match or a schedule. These, I belive are communication flaws and should be easily corrected, yet they seem to continue.

The inconsitency in rule interpretation or inconsistency in rule enforcemnet has got to improve. As for the time and venue issue. Timing is very difficult for the school age kids, so juniors will always be a problem. The other issue with the timing is that the NRA Board that approves all significant changes does not meet until January. The word doesn't hit the street until mid January if we are lucky. That then presses the limit for a major match in May, especially with so many international shooters. The venue is what it is, but had become stale and a change may be good for the sport. No other shooting event has been so stagnant except the Camp Perry events and that is a culture that is change resistent. Our game is Action Pistol and Action implies some change does it not?

The match is too long, almost everyone has that complaint. Most shoot 48 shots on two days and 96 rds on the other day. Two hundred shooters is 800 shooting assignment times. It's the same number of assignments whether is ti shot in 3 days or some shooters shoot all events in one day. It is a matter of filling the schedule with shooter slots for the 800 assignments. Yes, a bit tricky since some evnts shoot 4 at at time and some 3 at a time and with 2 movers, but it can be done.

The awards needs to get compressed too. Track and field, all olympic awards and all three are called at once then the awards for 1-3 or 1-5 are quickly handed out, instead of waiting for each person to walk across the ballroom floor. I believe this would save at least an hour maybe more from the banquet time..

There are many good ideas from may persons, but we seem to keep doing the way it has always been, as change is slow.

MJ

MJ

Edited June 2, 2010 by Allgoodhits

[Action Pistolero]

If action pistol has a 22 division, I could see it being more popular, but its a bit boring, to the general public, IMO. Now that I shoot more, I appreciate it, and think its very useful, but when I first started, IDPA seemed about ideal - get to run around, shoot from odd positions, and I only needed to come up w. 100 rounds of ammo, and 3 mags. It even fit, somewhat, into my "self-defense" mindset I had at the time.

Many people acquire hobbies at the College age - I think it would be an excellent idea if the shooting sports started really focusing on that age group, and part of that is going to be keeping things affordable for them. And, it has to be simple - I don't remember having too much of a problem finding 22, but for any other pistol caliber, it was pure luck to find any ammo, aside from 454 and 500.

We have a 22 class although it's not promoted and most clubs don't bother with it. I have often been told that the reason is because it is difficult to find a holster. Most of us know that this is not the case.

A 22 is the best way to get started in this sport. Put a red dot on it and away you go.

[Toolguy]

I've been going to the Cup since 1993. I have seen things done a lot of different ways. A lot of people have worked hard to make it a good match, but no one has worked harder or gotten more quantity of positive results than Tom has. Tom does not have control over everything like a king or dictator. Some things are what they are or will take time to work out solutions and get them implemented. Tom did a really great job this year and though it was very stressful on him at times, he was courteous and helpful to all. Sh-t did not roll downhill, it was dealt with at the top. That allowed the competitors to keep their worries confined to the match itself and kept anger and tempers to an absolute minimum. Tom, his staff and all the volunteers worked several very long days in a row to make things good for the shooters. You all have my thanks and respect.

The one thing I'm concerned about is with all the money that's coming from Midway, I hope it doesn't turn into the Potterfield Cup where one person can make changes that no one wants because they feel they own it. I am grateful for all the money that Midway has generously donated - it's a huge amount which has made many things possible that otherwise would not have been.

[goldfieldshooter]

Griz

I have had this discussion with Tom before(we are still talking) and funds are available to clubs to get the code underway. The bottom line is that it is upto individual members to donate expertise and time to set up the shoots AND build the equipment if necessary.If you wait for somebody else to do it for you, you will be waiting for a very long time and probably not appreciate or respect it if you did get it. In most clubs there are guys with the expertise required that need to be shaken and then pointed in the right direction. Our club, with 20 members,has a full Action Pistol set up; including a rail mover and air operated turning targets.Everything was built by the members and not one cent was spent on labour. I would post some pictures if I knew how.

Coatesy

[Allgoodhits]

I've been going to the Cup since 1993. I have seen things done a lot of different ways. A lot of people have worked hard to make it a good match, but no one has worked harder or gotten more quantity of positive results than Tom has. Tom does not have control over everything like a king or dictator. Some things are what they are or will take time to work out solutions and get them implemented. Tom did a really great job this year and though it was very stressful on him at times, he was courteous and helpful to all. Sh-t did not roll downhill, it was dealt with at the top. That allowed the competitors to keep their worries confined to the match itself and kept anger and tempers to an absolute minimum. Tom, his staff and all the volunteers worked several very long days in a row to make things good for the shooters. You all have my thanks and respect.

The one thing I'm concerned about is with all the money that's coming from Midway, I hope it doesn't turn into the Potterfield Cup where one person can make changes that no one wants because they feel they own it. I am grateful for all the money that Midway has generously donated - it's a huge amount which has made many things possible that otherwise would not have been.

+1 Tom and company have done more to keep the Cup alive than any others I can think off. Midways infusion of funds has helped immensely and perhaps it's best benefit is that Midway's support has caused others to infuse some cash too. Tom was responsible for most of this.

[Flexmoney]

Griz

I have had this discussion with Tom before(we are still talking) and funds are available to clubs to get the code underway.

The code?

The bottom line is that it is upto individual members to donate expertise and time to set up the shoots AND build the equipment if necessary.If you wait for somebody else to do it for you, you will be waiting for a very long time and probably not appreciate or respect it if you did get it.

You know, that is something I preach around here. Regardless of sport, gun equipment division, etc. There is no "they". It is "us" that makes things happen.

The top down effort of improving the Cup has sparked some interest. Can it be capitalized upon?

The mechanisms to support the local guys/gals in their efforts need to be in place as well. Traditionally, it hasn't been. For a bottom up approach, I believe it important to ask..."how can we make it easier for shooters to run our matches and compete in our matches?"

[Griz]

The reason that I think a "road show" would grow the sport and by extension, the Cup, is that there are big areas of the country with no NRA AP at all. The shooters there don't know it exists, as far as they know that "Bianchi Cup" they see for a couple of minutes once a year on SSUSA is some one-off match between the elite sponsored shooters.

A GSSF-like circuit would expose those motivated shooters at local matches to our sport and some of them would really like it and want another taste badly enough to set up their own match at their home range. I've already seen this happen when an old college buddy of mine came to visit and shot our local match. He liked it so much that he went home and set up his own match. He would never have been able to do it without support from me and the other experienced shooters at my club though, he was constantly calling and complaining that information was next to impossible to get out of the NRA...

If just a handful of new clubs started shooting AP, imagine the ripple effects on neighboring clubs and all of the organic interest that would create in the Bianchi Cup.

The keys are getting the right people interested in the sport and then making it *easy* for them to set up their own local match.

[goldfieldshooter]

Kyle

'Code' may not be used in the US as we use it.

ie.Shooting has many codes; IPSC, USPSA,BULLSEYE AND AP. All pistol shooting but different 'codes'

Coatesy

[Flexmoney]

OK. I hadn't heard that used that way before. Thanks.

[oldtrooper]

Kyle

'Code' may not be used in the US as we use it.

ie.Shooting has many codes; IPSC, USPSA,BULLSEYE AND AP. All pistol shooting but different 'codes'

Coatesy

Please define, or explain "code" as it relates to pistol shooting.

Oldtrooper

[jar]

Kyle

'Code' may not be used in the US as we use it.

ie.Shooting has many codes; IPSC, USPSA,BULLSEYE AND AP. All pistol shooting but different 'codes'

Coatesy

Please define, or explain "code" as it relates to pistol shooting.

Oldtrooper

If I read the post you quoted correctly, you could replace it with 'discipline'.

[oldtrooper]

Kyle

'Code' may not be used in the US as we use it.

ie.Shooting has many codes; IPSC, USPSA,BULLSEYE AND AP. All pistol shooting but different 'codes'

Coatesy

Please define, or explain "code" as it relates to pistol shooting.

Oldtrooper

If I read the post you quoted correctly, you could replace it with 'discipline'.

Thanks.

[Spangler]

Getting back to the original post...I talked to Tom at the Cup about the awards and he promised me that he would be caught up before he goes to camp Perry. He said they were to be caught up in 3 to 4 weeks and should have no problem staying caught up after that as the new system is far more efficient. I also spoke to Mike M after that and he gave me the same answer-He had told Tom to be caught up in less than 4 weeks. Based on that I would assume they are about half way through right now and I'm certainly looking forward to receiving something soon.

Tom, maybe you could provide an update.

GROWING ACTION PISTOL. though I'm still fairly new to this sport, I do know a fair amount about business. Looking at the NRA from that point of view (BTW they ARE a business)...Let's assume they are sitting on their butts ignoring us for 9 months(which I don't believe) and then we get 3 months attention. Based on the fact that action pistol shooters are likely less than 10% of revenue and membership, I can assure you that we would not get 25% of resources in my business. We're doing pretty good if we're getting that. I agree the NRA could do more to support us, but I'm on this side so of course I think that way. The NRA does have resposibility to help generate their own income...

Question was how to get more shooters in our sport?-We could (and will) keep hammering the NRA for more support and hopefully see improvement. BUT-Our club has over 100 members and only about 5 or 6 are into this sport. I expect many clubs have a lower % than that. Is that the NRA's fault? What are AP shooters doing directly to get new shooters in to AP in their own clubs?

How can we all grow the sport faster in our own clubs so we DO get more support?

Short version-Want to get more attention and support from NRA? Generate more income...

Edited June 10, 2010 by Spangler

[Griz]

Let's assume they are sitting on their butts ignoring us for 9 months(which I don't believe) and then we get 3 months attention

I don't actually believe that either. The seeming lack of interest at HQ in the sport of NRA AP outside of the Bianchi Cup is what prompted that bitter, hyperbolic comment. The rules committee doesn't even show interest in fixing problems in the rules and the Bianchi Cup itself runs by it's own set of rules, many unwritten, and I am totally mystified as to why the AP Rules can't just be changed to match the way they want the Cup to be run... It just appears to an outsider as if all that the NRA cares about is the Cup and turns it's attention elsewhere for most of the year.

Question was how to get more shooters in our sport?-We could (and will) keep hammering the NRA for more support and hopefully see improvement. BUT-Our club has over 100 members and only about 5 or 6 are into this sport. I expect many clubs have a lower % than that. Is that the NRA's fault? What are AP shooters doing directly to get new shooters in to AP in their own clubs?

I'm starting to think that the main problem is that it is an intimidating sport... You cannot make up misses, you don't get alibis. If you are a serious competitor in other sports, you probably don't have many guns in your safe that will meet the equipment rules. The high round count probably scares off some folks too... I know I've tried to get people to come out and their eyes bug out when I say they need 200 rounds for the match... I guess there are not any fixes for most of those problems other than watering it down unacceptably.

My solution would be to introduce the sport to as many shooters as possible and try to get that ~5% of each club interested in more. The real trick is finding that .1% that are masochistic enough to be match directors.