USPSA Dying Out?

[JFD]

After years of shooting non-affiliated matches that were a combination of IPSC/IDPA, I finally started shooting USPSA and IDPA.

Our IDPA matches(just started this year - used to be an unofficial USPSA match) normally have 45 shooters, while the USPSA matches have had less than 15 so far.  I've seen almost no carryover of shooters from one game to the other.

I personally find shooting L-10 to be the most fun thing a person can do while fully clothed.  I get excited just thinking about a match.

I don't care if the round counts are high, I get to reload more!  So what if there are hi-caps, race guns around.  I'm not competing directly against them even if I do try to beat as many of them as possible.

I get to think for myself and if I come up with a good plan I get rewarded.  Stupid plan gets me what I deserve.  The stages are great, with a couple of medium field stages, a short field stage,  a speed stage in our small bay, and the standards stage.  

IDPA comes in a poor second compared to USPSA for me.  I don't to be told how to engage targets in a supposedly "tactical" manner that's relatively stupid in many cases, nor do I want to be told how to reload.  I put up with this just to get to shoot more.  I'm still trying to figure out if it's just me or is the IDPA rule book actually bad mouthing USPSA at every opportunity.

Have I found the perfect activity just to have it dry up?  Is this simply a local thing?  I find that hard to believe although reading a lot of the posts here seem to indicate it's alive and well.

I would have tried USPSA years ago except my basic "knowledge" on the subject consisted of thinking I had to have a racegun that I didn't want.  Never saw anything in the gun rags about Production or L-10.  Mainly what I saw was articles critical of IPSC as being non-tactical (by people who know little of what they write about).   If anything, I believe USPSA is more useful due to the thinking aspect of it.

All I see now is IDPA still getting all the good press, with only one article lately giving USPSA a fair shake.  Does USPSA not advertise at all?  If it wasn't for American Shooter, the only time I'd hear about it would be when I get Frontsite(I would be happy if this was a weekly publication).

I try to get people at the club to give it a try, but they very nearly all think they need a racegun.  Even when told about Production and L-10 they still seem to be afraid to try it, almost as if not having a "real" gun would get them laughed at.  Instead they go to the IDPA match and try to figure out how to use the word "tactical" in every sentence in order to fit in(I know THIS is a local thing).

Sorry for whining and being negative about IDPA, but I just wanted to moan about the loss of a great monthly match (I tried to prevent it), and what appears to be an attendance trend that will kill our USPSA match.

The only good news is a club within driving distance is starting a new USPSA match this month.  I hope a lot of people will be there.  

In the meantime, I'm trying to get over my personal issues with IDPA since it looks like if I want to compete for a few more decades that I may have no other choice.  Our USPSA regulars are getting pretty old now and in 10 years there will be only 5 of us showing up unless something happens.  I'm trying to think of a better way to sell USPSA at the club although I think my present efforts may eventually pay off a little.

Whine mode OFF.

[vluc]

Where i shoot, IDPA and USPSA both have a good following, with many of us shooting both.  Different rules, different games.

JFD, where are you shooting (state, area)?

[kbear38S]

USPSA is booming here in the mid-Atlantic. Most matches are filling up and our club has had to put on a registration cap. We could easily fill another 20 slots.

[sfinney]

In the Dallas area, IPSC has died out at the local clubs... but not due to lack of interest. All the local gun clubs have had major internal political struggles over the last few years, between the shotgunners and the IPSC crowd, or the steel shooters and the IPSC crowd, usually resulting in IPSC being banned (by the non-IPSC shooting club majority) from the range.

But, if you want to drive a couple hours, there  are several good matches surrounding DFW, that we all go to.... Waco, Tyler, Breckinridge, etc.

And if you like to shoot steel challenge type stuff, there are 3 or 4 matches a month in Dallas.

IDPA is available to the Dallas area, but for all the political reasons above, most IDPA clubs are downright HOSTILE to IPSC shooters here. Its a shame, I  enjoy both games.  But thats the point, they are both GAMES. If the IDPA crowd wants to spout off how they are "tactical" and "real world" while being told how to shoot courses of fire under more rules than USPSA, with more restrictions on types of guns, all the while thinking that only their game practices real practical training, they are deluding themselves. Any shooting with a timer and scoring is a GAME. No matter what the rules. If you want to practice tactics, seek professional instruction. IMHO any competition shooting or gun handling in any form promotes better familiarity with shooting under pressure.

So I like to shoot everything; although my first love is IPSC.

I just wish I didn't have to drive so far to do it, just because "we can't all get along".

[Chriss Grube]

USPSA is in need of more advertising no doubt. Luckily like Kbear I live in the Mid-atlantic section and have lots of great clubs to shoot. I think part of the problem is the host clubs boards. We need to make sure we get our people in positions of power. We had the same problem were a Area match with well over 250 shooters lost out to a 3d archery shoot with 20 shooters. We now have a handgunner on the board. We just have to be smarter than the opponent. Put up a candidate for election and then get everyone USPSA member there to vote for him. Time to take a page out of the gun grabbers book. Pick the time and place of the fight  so that it is to our advantage. IDPA is still a game with different rules. It is no more tactical training than a snowball fight. If you get the others to try USPSA they will be hooked.

[BrianH]

In Oregon, the number of USPSA clubs has doubled in the last 5 years (to about 10, I think), whereas IDPA I have no idea; if any club is shooting it, they're keeping it a secret.

[skeeter]

here in ind. it seems to be coming back. our local club used to have 50 or more shooters then we had  a change in leadership then other clubs started within 70 miles or so then matchs dropped to the low 20's or even in to the teens. but in the last year or so its back in to the 30's. so i think it's coming back nice.

[JFD]

I'm shooting in the Greenville, SC area and am glad to hear USPSA is alive and well.

I'll keep trying to get folks to shoot USPSA, and will shoot IDPA mainly for the chance to recruit some of these guys.

Our IDPA match is so "tactical" that they don't bother with concealment when the weather is hot.  Nothing like real world practice...

The new USPSA match in Anderson really gives me hope, and our club may pick up some new shooters because of it.  I'll also check with the other shooters for more clubs with USPSA matches.

I'm also considering shooting in the next area 6 match to get an introduction to larger matches.

[Steve Anderson]

Another problem is this:

When you buy your first gun, most if not all of what you know about shooting comes from the guy behind the counter. Then from the (printed, not loaded)magazines you buy. Only if you get really lucky are you going to be encouraged to shoot IPSC/USPSA from either of those sources.

I would suggest to clubs that want to expand that they let newbies run with whatever they brought (provided it's safe) for no score just to get the bug. Maybe even a simple newbie stage that requires no reloads and can be shot from low ready...That way we can encourage people we know to come out and just try the one stage. If we treat them well, they'll be back.

-off topic, but somewhat related -

My brother-in-law is actually thinking about going out for the Navy Seals, yet I can't get him to try IPSC. He thinks he's a good enough shot already. This will me pretty funny at some point...

SA

[DogmaDog]

Steve,

That's pretty funny about your brother.  Maybe you could suggest that he shoot a match just for fun, and not to try to improve his (already excellent, I'm sure) marksmanship.  He does like shooting, right?  If not, why the hell go into the SEALs??

Semper Fi,

DogmaDog

[JFD]

We have a gun store in town that would likely scare people away from IPSC.

If you aren't one of the good old boy regulars, then you don't hardly exist until you start waving money in their face.  At that point they will give you 10% of their attention while continuing to discuss the lastest IDPA or IPSC match, as well as local gun club gossip.

Tends to give the impression that IDPA, IPSC, and the local gun club is full of pricks.  I've yet to hear anything positive about this store from someone outside of the "inner circle".

I've only seen one gun store that didn't man their counters with pricks or idiots.  The same type who actually recommends a .25 auto to a female shooter as the "ideal gun" for them.  I'll not hesitate to butt into these stupidity sessions.

[JFD]

Trying to think of reasons why the turnout is poor, so maybe you guys can help with suggestions:

I shot for years with an unaffiliated group that shoots IDPA type stages with IPSC type rules.  Only 3 stages and half the time I don't fire 30 rounds.

However, we hang around for hours telling lies and drinking beer, generally having a good time of it.  Wives are plentiful as we need someone sober to drive us home.  This group has mostly been together for 25 years, so I have no idea how they develped the social side of the match.

I loaded up my cooler and headed to my first USPSA match at the same club, halfway expecting to see some of the folks I normally shoot with(Didn't).

The match was a dream come true.  But after the match I found only a handful of people hanging around waiting for the scores, and they figured they had won.  Everyone else had cleared out like they heard free guns were being offered outside the gate.  

I drank a beer and headed home...Now I just clear out after helping tear down the stages.  The results are posted in a day or so on their web site.

A bit more "hosting" would go a long way toward attracting shooters who are looking for more than a shoot and escape experience.  

In the match briefing, the MD usually talks about getting home to watch a race(NASCAR country) or some other waste of time.  He sets up super stages, has a decent and rapidly updated web site, but has no regard for the social aspect of the match.

I feel like a new guy who should keep his mouth shut at least until I get classified, but our attendance is so low that I'm really worried.   This guy would use targets until they're 90% pasters if we didn't threaten him with physical harm, so I doubt he would spring for food or anything else costing money.

He's a good guy, but suffering the affects of burnout after doing too much for too long.  Guys with good sense have cut his workload down to a single monthly match, and an interested person willing to help out (that would be me) just might get him fired up again.

[skeeter]

good stages and a lot of help for new shooters is what helped us. we've got a good crew of guys that know how to set up great stages not just slugfests.and all my new shooters go with a local master that does a great job teaching new shooters how our game is played. but as always we can use help setting up and tearing down and ROing. but what club doesn't

[shred]

I've been wondering if quick posting of scores on the internet might be encouraging shoot-n-scooting.   Seems like we used to sit around more when the results were either there at the range or in the next month's newsletter.

We have one club that is trying to encourage staying & BS-ing with food and snacks-- I hope they keep at it.

[Chriss Grube]

I doubt if you'll see much support for the stay and BS. I try to shoot as many matches as possible which means the weekend is spent driving to and from. With a fulltime job, wife and 2 kids on the way and a 100+ mile drive home I want to shoot, tear down and get home to actually see the family or get into work on time. Maybe if the match was in my backyard I'd stay and BS but the closest club is 40 miles and the rest are all 100+. The standing around drinking doesn't interest me, I deal with enough drunks at work. I go shooting to get away from them. One club has a lunch at the clubhouse so the guys go eat bs a little and go home. They had a problem a few years back where one of the guys stayed boozing it up. He made it about half mile down the road before he met a big old tree. Now he walks with a limp and wears a brace just to shoot. Last thing we need is the bad press of one of our guys crashing drunk coming from a match.

(Edited by Chriss Grube at 1:28 pm on July 6, 2002)

[MBneACP]

I think the social aspect to USPSA shooting is very underrated. I understand Chris' point--people who are shooting a lot understandably *don't* want to hang around. OTOH, a lot of people--especially newbies--do. I don't shoot nearly as much as I used to, because here in the People's Republic of Boulder (no break on the Jon-Benet case yet!), there is no social aspect whatever...shoot, break it down and sprint for the gate. Scores are posted later that day on the Internet; if you win, you get a few bucks off your next entry. Ho-hum. Big deal. Yeah, I really care about saving that two bucks!

It's like going to a big 5K run versus a triathlon. In the first, you run your three miles, check your time and go home. Triathlon, you do 'em, check your watch, then it's party time! Guess which sport is

growing?

The IDPA club here is much better (my pal Tom Judd and I started it, and we were very sensitive to USPSA's problems); it's very social, and it draws twice as many shooters as USPSA, on the average.

I believe every sport (heck, every *person*) needs to reinvent itself every so often, or it dries up and blows away. Here in the PRofB, the USPSA clubs are old, rich, well-established and *certain*. They know how to run matches efficiently, design good courses, score quickly, etc...and they are boring as dirt.

As the sainted Martha Stewart would say, "That's a BAD thing!"

MB

[EricW]

I'm hip to Chriss's pack it up and get out philosophy.  That's the way it's got to be when you're headed for the top but have other obligations.  

I do think Michael hit the key to keeping USPSA alive: people and fun.  The core of USPSA is not the elite shooter.  It's the average A/B/C-class weekend warrior looking for a pleasant way to kill off a Saturday.  Cameraderie and kibbitzing are as much of the draw as is the shooting.  

I'll use my worn-out Sporting Clays analogy.  The ranges are *built* around the social aspect.  The look and feel is warm & friendly, the hosts are gracious, and comfortable accomodations encourage hanging out -- and the sport is growing like crazy.  

In the end, it's all about the people.

E

[JFD]

Actually I was joking about needing sober drivers, except for our annual cook out.  Folks drink whatever they want to drink, from water to beer.

This group of people are far less serious about shooting than the USPSA people, so perhaps it's not realistic to expect very competitive people who do a lot of shooting to hang around BSing the day away.  Of course those types are already shooting the match and we need to attract new people.  

My opinion is that we just need to get them to shoot a match and see how much fun it is.  Local advertising will be the key to that.  

My experience so far has been that no one has offered any words of wisdom on their own, but will answer my questions (how do I shoot a swinger?) without making me feel stupid.  Nobody looks down on me as a new (to USPSA) shooter, or for shooting L-10 instead of Open or Limited.  I would say all of this should translate into a positive experience for a new shooter + the stages are great.

[JFD]

I just opened what is normally a 2 page results sheet that shows results for last month's IDPA and USPSA matches.

IDPA has a new MD and mailed a 4 page newsletter containing more than the normal amount of information.  Seems that there are 4 women who want to shoot IDPA but aren't comfortable with the idea of jumping directly into a match.  The MD is going to hold a 1/2 day IDPA training seminar for them (I guess for anyone else as well), plus squad them together for their first match so they can get their feet wet without feeling pressured from the guys.  That's what I'd call customer service destined to attract, or at least keep a lot of new people.

[banjobart]

In Michigan the attendance at both USPSA and IDPA matches has DOUBLED in the last three years.

[John Thompson]

My USPSA club is doing well but has dropped off the last couple of months  because the old jocks refuse to add berms to the rifle bays to allow effeciant pistol shooting.  Shooting a match takes forever.  A couple of years ago ipistol berms were approved, we bought the dirt and had it delivered, but then some jerks bullied some other board members to change their vote.  The dirt we paid for with match dues was taken and used to make another rifle back berm.  The club costs over $300- to be a member of and their thinking of raising it $50- to buy some useless land for dog training.

I shoot at some other clubs that are inbred with a core group of shooters who make it unpleasant to shoot there.  No one wants to help either and people threaten to quit if forced to lift a finger.

The relentless negative bashing the IDPA does is a big influence on the USPSA participation.  I meet people all the time who have never tried the USPSA but know for a fact it's bad.

When you think about it, the IDPA gives someone who got their ego bruised at a USPSA match a good excuse.  'You didn't perform poorly, it was the sports fault'.

[JFD]

I'm surprised the trap, skeet, and sporting clays guys who seem to "own" the club even allow the 3 matches(+ a high power match) we have now.  I think it's only because they never venture down to the rifle range, and basically figure that "out of sight, out of mind" is a good thing.

The club president is a bullseye shooter as well, and thinks action shooters are bad in some sort of way.  

[wmiller45]

I'm new to this forum, have just re-joined USPSA, and shoot open class. Why? Because it's fun.

When I stopped shooting in 92, there was some talk going around (propagated by the local SoCal stuffed shirts) about how 'gamey' and 'un-practical' USPSA shooting was, and that it didn't have anything to do with real-world shooting situations. I guess this is what started IDPA? Dunno for sure.

Here 10 years later, this 'conversation' is still going on, with no shortage of pompous, arrogant, warrior-wannabies forcing un-solicited opinions on anyone foolish to stand close enough to them.

IMO, any shooting that sharpens the ability to hit a target helps, but it won't prepare you for a firefight where people are trying to kill you, in your pitch black bedroom, and then don't have the decency to stand still so you can double-tap them.

This (USPSA/IDPA) is a sport like most others, with both good and bad participants, and should be treated as such. It really helps when the local club(s) have a program in place that welcomes and assists new shooters in their first match or two so that proper safety is learned and the participant enjoys the experience, learning something in the process. Why else do this stuff?

I was taught that when confronted with superior numbers, withdrawal is the only smart thing to do, and that every action taken should be towards that end. Especially when only armed with a defensive weapon like a handgun. In a real firefight, only and idiot/fool would reload and run towards multiple hostiles in an effort to engage them.

But then that's just me. Now excuse me while I take a sledgehammer to my soapbox...

(Edited by wmiller45 at 9:14 am on July 23, 2002)