"Gaming" vs "True Intent" of a stage

[Merlin Orr]

Well... Somehow "cheating the timer." Never even thought of doing it or if anyone actually tried to do it.. It STILL comes down to proper stage design - or lack thereof.

But on the subject of the RO not "picking up the shots".

I have seen a guy run the same stage 3 different times due to the the sorry POS RO ambling along with his head stuck up his ass and failing to get into position to pick up the last shot. The first run the worthless lard ass did not time properly would have been a stage win (Major 3 Gun Comp.) The second run (also wasted) in the top 3 and the one the RO finally picked up had a miss on one of the long range target. Cost the competitor 3 places in the final outcome.

[bigbrowndog]

poor stage design, bad RO selection, etc. Personally i would call that cheating, simply based on the fact that the competitor is trying to receive less time than they actually earned, however how do you say they "intentionally" did it??????????? did you ask them afterwards???????? would that not fall into range equipment failure???????

you could also say that a shooter "intentionally" outran the RO on a stage so as to not have the last shots picked up by the timer!!! that would be bad RO selection on the MD.

Trapr

[Jack T]

Got a question here, little bit off topic, but still relates.

If a shooter engages targets behind a solid barricade or wall, with the intent of masking the shots from the timer (buries the muzzle further behind the barricade than actually necessary to make the shot) would this be considered "Gaming" or "Cheating"?

I have seen this done many times, sometimes to success, sometimes not. Forget about the RO checking the round count at the end of the stage, etc., because extra shots may or may not have been taken. Look at the act itself.

For me, this is where the lines get grey between "Gaming" and "Cheating". Good "Gamers" vs Bad "Gamers"

I see nothing wrong with taking the miss penalty for taking one shot at long range rifle steel and moving on. This is just a tactic. Risk Vs Reward. It is within the rules.

JT

Yeah, it is a tough one to call, but it happens. When you know how to do it, you know what to look for when a shooter attempts it. I learned this from a 3 Gun National Open Champion who has used this "Technique" successfully. It works better with pistol but it has still been used with long guns given the right circumstance.

For educational purposes: It is best used on the last target array so that when the shooter buries the weapon deep inside the structure he does not have to lose time coming back out. Stage over. ROs be aware!

JT

Edited May 31, 2010 by Jack T

[Patrick Sweeney]

I'm old, but when the buzzer goes off, the afterburners go on. If you assign me an RO who can't keep up, then it isn't my fault. If you design a stage such that the RO has to climb on my shoulder to get the timer close enough to the muzzle for the last shot, again, not my fault.

If you, the MD, don't have stage designers who can't figure those details out, ask a gamer to de-bug your stage before you start the match.

When I was the Club President/MD/Factotum, I'd grab a gamer M or GM, and drag him through the stages before we started. "How do you game this stage?"

[Jack T]

Mr. Sweeney, always wanted to meet you and I missed my chance at the FNH Match. You are definitely the Hemingway of gun lore!!

Watched you shoot stage 1 (FNH)and I hate to be the one to tell you this, but I think the "afterburners" have done burnt out. My grandmother could have kept up with you in her wheel chair. Just kidding, wouldn't know you if I saw you, but I did check the combined finish and you did pretty damn good for a revolver shooter!!

Not many 56 year old shooters can hang with the big dogs! (I mean that)

Seriously, it is what it is, and all we can do is the best we can do as Club Presidents, MD's, etc. Hate to see stages thrown out of a major match, when one squad could have shot it over again and resolved that issue. We learn from it and move on.

We all have an "intent", idea or whatever you want to call it when we design/build a stage, but if we are incapable of building the final product with that goal in mind, well,learn from it and do better next time.

I will embrace my fellow gamers, with a proper distance maintained between us, and move forward.

Until the next time!

3 gun shooters are the best!!

JT

Edited June 2, 2010 by Jack T

[bigbrowndog]

Can everyone on this topic describe their own idea of what "true intent" is or as I just read in another topic "spirit of the game",...............because my definition of my true intent on a stage or match, is to "Do well and score as high as possible within the RULES of the game.

Now, since I cannot even begin to KNOW, anyone else's true intent and since we are playing a game, does anyone disagree with the spirit of playing a game, is to win by whatever legal means possible. I'm not discounting having fun, or enjoying ones self, but the actual original intent of playing a game, if its to lose or do poorly, why are we playing!!! any game baseball, football, basketball, whatever, every participant goes out to win or beat the opposing players.

If a stage designer cannot adequately articulate what they want done in a stage, or places targets that are beyond the ability of competitors, it should be competitors ability to decide to "game" that portion of a stage or match.

So what is your definition of "True Intent" or "spirit of the game", or "spirit of the stage" etc.???????

trapr

After some thought I came up with another idea, perhaps matches should post what they want as their "true intent" or "spirit of the game" onto the website or within their set of rules. If its to engage all targets with 2 or more rounds, or spend 10 seconds on LR targets, or whatever,... then we as competitors will be able to have a better understanding of exactly what the MD wants or intends when a FTDR or unsportsmanlike conduct penalty is given out. Otherwise competitors really do not understand a stage or its intent when they are asked.

Edited June 5, 2010 by bigbrowndog

[Benelli Chick]

Usually, my "intent"s to make a fun stage that makes you a little uncomfortable somewhere (like offhand shooting, or long targets, or lot's of choices) and that it helps the shooter improve and they have fun!

That being said, sometimes, I am dissappointed because the stage doesn't come out in reality exactly the way it was in my head, but as long as it's still fun and challenging...it's all good!

I think often the way the designer imagines the stage being shot, isn't the way it ends up being shot. How many times have you heard stage designers say "I shot my own stage like S--T!"? I know one guy who designed a stage with a briefcase chained to your weak hand. Almost every shooter, including the lefties, shot the stage one handed. It was fast and the targets were close. He came back later in the match and shot it the way he had seen it in his head, which was two handed with the chains all together on both wrists. The briefcase swung like a loon and he ended up shooting the corner off it! It was in his head that way, and sometimes, we can't get it out.

JJ and I have an easier time with design, because we like choices so much, we're always thinking about, "what would make you shoot it with this gun or that gun??" "Why would they run up instead of staying back and vice versa???" We're very happy when every shooter has a different plan. It's evil but, we like to hear people coming back and saying "I wish I'd shot it a different way."

Anyway, the answer to your question is the intent of the stage should be to be fun and challenging.

I think the "gaming" thing comes up when occasionally, you see two ways to shoot something, and then, for example forget to cover up a target before it's activated, and forget to say you need to activate it first and then people feel like it's unfair because they shot it the "intended" way, and someone else shoots the target first and cuts out a position or whatever and saves 20 seconds. Yep, stage designer made boo-boo assuming every knew you needed to activate before shooting. In that case, I think I would make the very first one who does it, reshoot and then write it in! Not because I didn't want people to outthink the stage, but because we weren't all playing by the same perceived rules.

The more you design and watch how people outthink you, the more ways you'll look at things, and the better designer you'll become. Also, if you choose Ro's that can think for themselves, and you give them the time to ask, it'll help.

Also, that's another reason I like having the RO's shoot the match first. Those RO's are thinkers and "gamers" too. They'll find a lot of little "issues" and you can get them worked out and taken care of within the RO's. If you need to reshoot a few, you have time! RO's are great Guinea Pigs!!!!

Have fun, try to think of everything, and try not to beat yourself up too much when someone figures out something you never even thought of!

Edited June 5, 2010 by Benelli Chick

[bigbrowndog]

Denise, your and JJ's stage design utilize ideas that I feel are whats missing in stages these days. CHOICES!!

I've always enjoyed seeing your stages because they tend to give me ideas for other things. You both have implemented ideas that allow a competitor to decide for themselves, about target engagement and how to attack a stage. i enjoy stages that i can come up with 2 ways to shoot it, and then I have to decide which way is better for me, or when its over I can say "I wish I could try it the other way".

trapr

BTW, Denise I was talking about what is your personal intent when you walk up to a stage and get ready to shoot it , not your intent when designing stages or a match.

Edited June 6, 2010 by bigbrowndog

[M ammo]

Denise, your and JJ's stage design utilize ideas that I feel are whats missing in stages these days. CHOICES!!

I've always enjoyed seeing your stages because they tend to give me ideas for other things. You both have implemented ideas that allow a competitor to decide for themselves, about target engagement and how to attack a stage. i enjoy stages that i can come up with 2 ways to shoot it, and then I have to decide which way is better for me, or when its over I can say "I wish I could try it the other way".

trapr

BTW, Denise I was talking about what is your personal intent when you walk up to a stage and get ready to shoot it , not your intent when designing stages or a match.

My intent is to shoot the stage as fast and accurately as possible,, OK Daaaa that is what we all want,

But we have to know the, rules for the match or the stage, two on paper, is easier than 2 in the A zone,, or Zero ring,, that changes the game.

And that is OK,, if you don’t like the accuracy game, don’t shoot the match.

Long range targets, I personally have a hard time, not hitting a target, you know when you are missing you want to keep at it until you hit it,, I have just NOW,, come to the point that I can make myself STOP. Do the math if it’s a 20 second penalty,, shoot at it for 15 Seconds, and Move, It is too easy for the Stage designer, If it is their intent to have you hit all the long range steel,, say so,, “ Steel Must go down before moving to the next position” If you don’t state it,, some will get the hits some will game the try’s Some don’t have the experience, and don’t have their Gun set up correctly. And they just piss away ammo.. we all see it,, some times it’s just not our day,, and we all still do it,,

I too have come up with stages, that give you the choice of Tool,, some folks are better with pistol than shotgun, I have made stages that give you an option on say the Texas Star, Many of the new folks, feel that the shotgun is better for them, but once you have the Star figured out,, the pistol can be faster,, and faster to re-load, if the stage calls for, more shooting,,

At more than one match, Fullauto Shooter and I will talk about how to shoot a stage,

We both have different skill sets,, He is supper fast, I can’t keep up with him most of the time, depending on the stages and how many movers, and other targets, We would not shoot the stage the same.. I keep trying to move faster,, But I’m not getting younger either,

I’m ok with a pistol,, I can shoot a shotgun OK,, but I load slow, and most of the time I can hold my own with a rifle…

I don’t practice enough to shoot on the move as well as I would like to. ( if they come up with the Metric 100 Hour day, maybe I will have the time)

Knowing the truth about myself strengths and weakness, and facing the truth,, helps me know what to practice, but more than that , that helps me plan out how I will shoot the stage.

[Outsydlooknin75]

On the long range steel I have shot in matches that have stated, you shoot till you hit it, or you shoot X number of rounds per target, if you do not hit within that number of rounds you can then move on and you will take a time penalty for the misses.

[benny hill]

Most people say I am a world class gammer, but as you can see, I cannot even spell the word. Don't know where this comes from.

[kurtm]

Jealousy on the part of others I can only assume. Reading a stage...AND the stage brief is an art form, and Benny is an ARTIST!! I wish I was half as good at it as he is! But WARNING to R.O.s if Benny is asking a pointed question....LISTEN!!!! KurtM

[No.343]

There is no doubt. Benny has a unique stature amongst gamers.

[astephenson]

I hate it when people use the term "gamer" as derogatory.

That happens all the time in IDPA. My typical response is something like "There's a timer and a score sheet...it's a game."

[BigLucky]

I might be reading too much into this, but I find it pretty interesting looking at the date that Trapr wrote the OP. I have to say that the big 3 Gun match that I shot the weekend before I left for where I am now I was fairly displeased and turned off by most of the RO's using the term "gamer" as if they were calling you something REALLY REALLY DIRTY. The match in question also happened to have IMHO some of the most forced "do it my way or the highway" stages to the point where one RO told us that if he thought we were gaming by "Stacking shots" he would "DQ you so fast you will spin"...

Why do people insist that playing the game in a manner that you might win is bad.. I mean after all it is a game... there is a score keeper, there is a timer, and most importantly, there isn't anyone returning fire... I can understand designing a stage so that the only way you can comfortably engage a target with with your rifle on your weak shoulder, but that is not the same as the WSB (thanks for the new term Jim) saying, shoot those targets with your weak shoulder for no good reason other than because we want you too..

Anyway, I will quit ranting.. I am all with Trapr on this one.. if you don't want people to "game your stages" design them (and this includes things like walls and barricades at the shooting positions, not just target positioning) in the way that you want them shot.. someone will still probably find a different way, but you have done the best you can...

[abn-rgr]

I had to relook at this after our match. Here is the bottom line. Its the shooter who spends the money to come to the match. If he wants to fire one shot and go drink beer the rest of the day, its his perogative. If the shooters didnt come to the match, there wouldnt be one.....period. It costs a lot of money for entry fees, hotel, food, travel, ammo, etc to shoot a match. Let the shooter shoot the match the way he wants (within match rules and stage descriptions). If a guy finds a loophole, good on him. Calling people gamers and threatening to DQ them if they look at you funny will turn people off with a quickness. I go to matches to have a good time shooting and see good friends. I dont need some range Nazi screaming at everything I do because I didnt shoot the stage they way he thought I should.

[EkuJustice]

I think that is part of the fun of it and one reason I am not a fan of IDPA. You try and make the stage easier and better for you and your abilities. Stage this weekend for example you had to shoot steel from one box, pick up a large basket with rope handle on each side and shoot steel in the middle with basket off the ground, go to the other side and place the basket down and shoot steel in the box. The Intent I believe was to make the shooter shoot it strong hand only for the stuff in the middle but wasnt specified just stated basket off the ground. I ended up shooting the steel from the box, throwing the loop over my front mag and shot it free style and then took the basket off(sacrificing the mag) on the way over. For me throwing it on the mag on the move took basically no extra time and I was able to hit the steel much quicker with 2 hands than I could strong hand. Also, Someone who is very quick on their feet and not quite as accurate at distance is going to shoot stages alot different than someone who can hit very well at distance and is not very quick on their feet. It also allows you to take the Penalties if you know something is out of your range. If there is a very distant target that you know the only way your going to hit it is by pure luck, it allows that person to take the penalties and leave it out rather than rack up the time, waste ammo and still get a penalty for something they have no chance at hitting.

I think "gaming" is all part of free style

[bayoupirate]

Trapr,

I feel that gaming a stage is finding the best shooting solution for you.

That means that a GM and a C class shooter probably are not going to have the same sequence and plan.

Some shooter will strong hand a couple of targets while opening a door with the weak hand, while others will be sure to maintain their grip for those two targets then negotiate the door. I do agree with the seeming majority here that the stage designer and proper set-up are where these issues can be minimized.

The best courses of fire have straight forward shooting solutions that are free of traps for 180 violations, FTE's and other issues, BUT they also leave flexability for shooters to use multiple shooting solutions to complete the course, as best suits their abilities. I was the CRO on a course this weekend at the Louisiana Gator Classic. Stage 3 was a straight forward 16 target, all paper, course of fire. C and D class shooters started engaging targets at the front of the course and kept the arrays together as sets moving to and ending in the back of the bay. A - GM's and those with 10 or less rounds per reload found various solutions to pick-up targets that had multiple views to reduce the number of reloads, shooting positions and most importantly TIME. The course was good because it gave them flexability. I saw at least a dozen ways to shoot the course.

BTW I ran 248 shooters and I only had ONE timer issue. Ending between two plasic barrels, one shooter's spent casing hit the timer and recorded an additional shot to the string. I realized what had happened immediately and was able to review the time and award the shooter their correct time for the stage score.

As an RO, if I felt a shooter was intentionally attempting to avoid the last shot being recorded, I'd call range equipment failure and make them reshoot.

If it happened again, I'd call the range master to handle the DQ.