Holstering SA Gun Cocked & Unlocked

[Steve Koski]

A fellow pointed out on another forum that this isn't specifically prohibited in the IDPA rule book. The rule book does state:

C 15. Pistols must start from the mechanical condition of

readiness appropriate to their design...

But in theory you could holster a single action gun cocked and unlocked, then apply the safety, and you would "START" from the mechanical condition of readiness appropriate for the design.

Any problem with this?

[BillD]

Are you saying you can holster a 1911 without the thumb safety on, and then once in the holster, put the safety on?

[Steve Koski]

I'm asking that question, yes.

[Bob DuBois]

Accident waiting to happen, we had a shooter shoot himself in the calf back in the winter with a Glock 17 at one of the indoor matches that run hot stages while holstering the pistol. Be sure he signed the waver.

[BillD]

I'm asking that question, yes.

What's the point?

[22 shooter]

Why would you want to?

[Steve Koski]

I saw two shooters holster cocked and unlocked single action guns a month ago at a classifier. It strikes me as unsafe gun handling. But you could argue that a light Glock trigger is not much different than a light SA trigger, so who cares.

[twodownzero]

I saw two shooters holster cocked and unlocked single action guns a month ago at a classifier. It strikes me as unsafe gun handling. But you could argue that a light Glock trigger is not much different than a light SA trigger, so who cares.

It might not be lighter, but it is certainly shorter than a Glock trigger pull.

I'm not sure as to the answer in IDPA rules, but this is unquestionably a match DQ in USPSA.

I am very deliberate about flicking my safety on when I shoot.

[Glock3422]

I know someone who did it while practicing one day.

He doesn't limp anymore, but I understand it still hurts sometimes.

There is a very real danger of either your clothes or your holster putting enough force on the trigger while holstering for it to go bang.

I cringe everytime I see someone slam their gun into the holster.

Holstering the gun is about the most dangerous thing we do.

[sniperdog]

If I am the SO and I get shot , I will shoot back. It makes no sense for anyone playing our game to put a gun in a holster without ALL safety devices in place.

[MTBfarms]

I would like this rule clarified as well. I have SOed several shooter who have tried to holster safety off on a SA Firearm, I don't let them.

[JThompson]

No way in hell I would allow it...

JT

[racerba]

Again...why would you want to?!?!?!

[Steve J]

Not safe. Not legal.

[Steve Koski]

USPSA rules are quite clear

10.5 Match Disqualification Unsafe Gun Handling

10.5.11 Holstering a loaded handgun, in any of the following conditions:

10.5.11.1 A single action self-loading pistol with the safety not applied.

10.5.11.2 A double action or selective action pistol with the hammer

cocked and the safety not applied.

10.5.11.3 A revolver with the hammer cocked.

The closest IDPA rules come to this is as follows:

S 1. Unsafe gun handling will result in immediate

disqualification from the entire match.

As an SO, when I see someone do this (and I can't stop them before the gun hits the holster), should I:

• DQ them on the spot
  
• Warn them, DQ at second offense
  
• Continue to warn and warn and warn
  
• Nothing 'it's not specifically prohibited'
  

Edited May 19, 2010 by Steve Koski

[jmorris]

But in theory you could holster a single action gun cocked and unlocked, then apply the safety, and you would "START" from the mechanical condition of readiness appropriate for the design.

Any problem with this?

If its loaded and no safety on, it should be pointed down range, most all know this as safe gun handling. USPSA just defined it.

If you really want to split hairs USPSA should DQ everyone after they unload, show clear and reholster. 10.5.11.1 A single action self-loading pistol with the safety not applied. That doesnt differentiate between loaded or unloaded.

I know its a lot to ask these days but some old school guys still rely on common sense.

Edited May 19, 2010 by jmorris

[GForceLizard]

I guess if it's not in the IDPA rules it must be a local range rule where I shoot. Yes, you have to put the safety on before you holster. Since it is not specifically written in IDPA rules it falls under following SO commands. As an SO don't allow anyone to holster w/o the safety on. If they do it's the SO's and MD's call on the DQ. Stop them or warn them the first time.

[Steve J]

It is addressed in the IDPA rule book, but like most everything else there are no lists or examples.

C 15. Pistols must start from the mechanical condition of readiness appropriate to their design...

You have to use common sense and knowledge of how your pistol works and know what the safe mechanical condition of readiness is.

[jmorris]

I guess it is covered, sort of, p57 New shooter orientation…include at least…drawing and re-holstering. Also, p52 Shooter responsibilities 5. Follow the rules in this book and any match-specific or range-specific rules.

[lugnut]

If I am the SO and I get shot , I will shoot back. It makes no sense for anyone playing our game to put a gun in a holster without ALL safety devices in place.

Really? You would shoot back even if it was an accident? I wouldn't want to be your lawyer...

[lugnut]

It is addressed in the IDPA rule book, but like most everything else there are no lists or examples.

C 15. Pistols must start from the mechanical condition of readiness appropriate to their design...

You have to use common sense and knowledge of how your pistol works and know what the safe mechanical condition of readiness is.

Even if "this" isn't 100% clear... I'd say a DQ for unsafe gun handling would be appropriate and not at all unreasonable. Agree?

[Steve J]

I would agree. I haven't seen too many 1911/2011 owners who didn't know they had to apply the thumb (sear block) safey before holstering, but I have seen quite a few SA/DA pistol owners who didn't want to decock the hammer (safe condition) because, and I quote, those other guys get to start with their hammer cocked.

[IdahoShooter]

As an almost exclusive 1911 shooter, I could not think of a single reason to holster and then apply the saftey. Bad gun handling skills learned at home doing poor dry fire drills.

Since the hand is on the pistol all the secondary safties of the 1911 are not engaged while reholstering and the gun could potentially go off if you brushed the trigger.

If it were me, and it is situation dependent, I would take the shooter aside, and point it out to them, and tell them that for the saftey of the other shooters and myself, if I see it again, it's a DQ.

But that's just me...

Brian

[sperman]

If you really want to split hairs USPSA should DQ everyone after they unload, show clear and reholster. “10.5.11.1 A single action self-loading pistol with the safety not applied.” That doesn’t differentiate between loaded or unloaded.

If you can apply your thumb safety with the hammer down on a 1911 you need to take your gun to a competent gunsmith.

[jmorris]

If you can apply your thumb safety with the hammer down on a 1911 you need to take your gun to a competent gunsmith.

The fact that you cant was my point. All it takes is a little common sense (or instruction) to understand you need your safety on before holstering if there is a round in the chamber. Furthermore, if you just finished with unloaded, show clear and hammer down it should be obvious that you cannot put the safety on before holstering.

It is the rule book lawyers that dont take anything as understood that cause a rulebook to be the size of a phone book. Have you ever seen how think the rule book is for Formula 1 racing? How about even "just for fun" SCCA club racing? They are inches thick for this very reason.

The MD discretion was placed in the rule book to keep it thin. In the end it is just like our parents told us when we had little common sense and asked why? Because I told you to., is the correct answer.

Edited May 19, 2010 by jmorris