Holstering SA Gun Cocked & Unlocked

[el pres]

This may not be very clear in the rulebook but since in IDPA a 1911 pistol has to have a "working" grip safety, I would assume that the IDPA version of Amidon would rule this a DQ. It should be !

Edited to correct my ignorance with the divisions of IDPA ..

Edited May 20, 2010 by P.Pres

[cnote]

This may not be very clear in the rulebook but since in IDPA a CDP pistol has to even have a "working" grip safety, I would assume that the IDPA version of Amidon would rule this a DQ. It should be !

Not sure about that as a Glock 21 can be shot in CDP the last time i checked.

[Steve Koski]

PeterP, Now we ALL know you haven't shot an IDPA match in 4 years. No IDPA division requires a grip safety. But if your gun was made with a grip safety, it must function properly.

Take care,

Koski

[el pres]

PeterP, Now we ALL know you haven't shot an IDPA match in 4 years. No IDPA division requires a grip safety. But if your gun was made with a grip safety, it must function properly.

Take care,

Koski

My point exactly !!

[MHicks]

jmorris, on 19 May 2010 - 09:47 AM, said:

If you really want to split hairs USPSA should DQ everyone after they unload, show clear and reholster. 10.5.11.1 A single action self-loading pistol with the safety not applied. That doesnt differentiate between loaded or unloaded.

I guess you missed the reference that comes just before the above stating that it applies to loaded guns. (10.5.11) Holstering a loaded gun in any of the following conditions. Mark

Edited May 22, 2010 by MHicks

[Steve Koski]

Good observation skills MHicks. I got sucked in by the claim too, but the USPSA rule on this issue appears to be quite comprehensive and clear.

[GmanCdp]

qoute:IDPA version of Amidon would rule this a DQ. It should be

What is an Amidon??

[Duane Thomas]

John Amidon is the rules authority of the United States Practical Shooting Association. IDPA's equivalent would be Robert Ray of IDPA HQ.

[Nik Habicht]

If it’s loaded and no safety on, it should be pointed down range, most all know this as safe gun handling. USPSA just defined it.

If you really want to split hairs USPSA should DQ everyone after they unload, show clear and reholster. “10.5.11.1 A single action self-loading pistol with the safety not applied.” That doesn’t differentiate between loaded or unloaded.

Better read all of section 10.5.11:

10.5.11 Holstering a loaded handgun, in any of the following conditions:

10.5.11.1 A single action self-loading pistol with the safety not applied.

The gun must be loaded -- contain a mag of ammmo or a round in the chamber -- for a DQ to apply......

[Steve J]

Good observation skills MHicks. I got sucked in by the claim too, but the USPSA rule on this issue appears to be quite comprehensive and clear.

The USPSA rule book lists every specific example of unsafe gun handling that should result in a DQ. The IDPA rule book as you know uses the phrase Examples (but not limited to):

S 1. Unsafe gun handling will result in immediate disqualification from the entire match.

Examples (but not limited to):

That is very unfortunate, because over time people become complacent and start to think that only the few examples listed are grounds for a DQ, especially if their experience is restricted to their one local IDPA match every month. I know these people.

If I am ever in doubt as to whether or not an act of unsafe gun handling should be a DQ at an IDPA match, I have no problem refering to the USPSA rule book. What's unsafe in USPSA is equally unsafe in IDPA, and USPSA does a much better job of defining it.

[Pittbug]

"Unsafe gun handling" is basically a catchall rule because they can't possibly write in all of the unsafe things that some people might do. So by having a catchall rule, it allows the SO some flexibility in determining what is unsafe. When something is happening on the line that is potentially unsafe, it's probably better to have the SO concentrate on keeping the shooter and everyone else safe, rather than trying to recount 20 different specific gun handling rules and how they may or may not apply at that moment.

[Merlin Orr]

So has anyone e mailed Robert Ray and asked for his opinion? He seems to have some common sense to go along with his IDPA "book smarts..."

[Steve Koski]

The only person I've ever seen shot before my own eyes was holstering a cocked and unlocked single action gun. With this background, holstering a gun in this condition doesn't strike me as just another rule in a long list.

I haven't asked Robert Ray. I'm not sure if anyone else has. Good idea. Ask him & post it here.

[Nik Habicht]

Good observation skills MHicks. I got sucked in by the claim too, but the USPSA rule on this issue appears to be quite comprehensive and clear.

The USPSA rule book lists every specific example of unsafe gun handling that should result in a DQ. The IDPA rule book as you know uses the phrase Examples (but not limited to):

Actually, USPSA uses the same language. They might cite a few more examples, but no one wants to assume that they can ever list all the possible ways a situation could go south....

10.5 Match Disqualification – Unsafe Gun Handling

Examples of unsafe gun handling include, but are not limited to:

[Haji]

I would hope that the SO's would be familiar with the allowable actions of the guns used in a match. With a single action pistol like a 1911, the thumb safety can only be applied when the hammer is cocked. Unless the gun is being shot, the thumb safety should be applied. That's just good gun handling. If a shooter is too inexperienced to have learned that, they probably shouldn't be using that gun in competition until they get some trainin'.

[cslafrain]

As an SO, this is one of the things that I look for when the shooter loads and makes ready. As a shooter I always use the safety when the weapon is holstered and the safety does not come off until both hands are on the weapon. Safety 1st - Always.

[Dacsoft]

If it were me, and it is situation dependent, I would take the shooter aside, and point it out to them, and tell them that for the saftey of the other shooters and myself, if I see it again, it's a DQ.

+1 on that. For this situation, I would give the 1 time warning and DQ on the second incident.