rmills Posted January 17, 2004 Share Posted January 17, 2004 We are all hoping the the current Assault Weapons Ban expires next year. BUT, if our leaders decide to keep it on the books, will USPSA finally create an Open 10 division since new shooters will not be able to purchase new, legal, hi-cap mags, just as they can't today? Since USPSA saw fit to do away with one of the basic premises of Production Division due to some shooters not being able to take a long shot with a DA trigger, l'm hoping they will also try to accomodate new shooters who want to shoot Open, but will not be able to do so without breaking the law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmittyFL Posted January 17, 2004 Share Posted January 17, 2004 Jesus Christ...............NO!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warpspeed Posted January 17, 2004 Share Posted January 17, 2004 I think that it would take a serious drop off in open competitors at the National level to force such a thing. According to the USPSA web site, at the Race Gun Nationals we had 276 Limited competitors and 262 Open ones. Compared to the Factory Gun Nationals where there were 254 total for L-10, Production & Revolver. The AW ban affects both Limited & open as far as magazine capcity goes. The ban has been in affect for 10 years and yet the participation numbers at the natioanls seem to be unaffected. According to Front Sight, 25% of the competitors at the Limited Nationals were shooting it for the first time. If this number was < 5%, then you might have a case that the magazine restrictions were affecting USPSA participation. I don't have my FS with the Factory Gun Nationals stats handy but I'll look them up. I think they will be statistically the same as the Race Gun ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmittyFL Posted January 17, 2004 Share Posted January 17, 2004 Yeah, that's what I meant to say!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wildman Posted January 18, 2004 Share Posted January 18, 2004 I know its not a popular position with some, and its been tossed around a lot here, but , I would like to see not only open 10, but open revolver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriss Grube Posted January 18, 2004 Share Posted January 18, 2004 The problem is for small clubs and 5 divisions the competition is spread pretty damn thin now. Revolver might get 2-5 shooters at an Area match. Open revolver would get maybe 1-2 of those shooters. Let's face it revolver is about as popular in USPSA as Sarah Brady would be at a NRA convention! Let's just leave things as they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted January 18, 2004 Share Posted January 18, 2004 This has been discussed to death. There are probably 10 pages of discussion on this topic. Our opinions haven't changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 18, 2004 Share Posted January 18, 2004 New shooters without a lot of $$$ can do what I am doing if they want to shoot in Open. They can build an Open Glock in Major 9. They'll save a pile of money on the gun...and reloading cost. And, standard capacity Glock mags don't cost much more than 10-round STI/SV mags (but the Glock mags work ). Lets put the aggression where it belongs...on the lawmakers that have made this so tough on us all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmills Posted January 18, 2004 Author Share Posted January 18, 2004 Warpspeed: You would probably see a large decrease in Open shooters using Hi-cap mags if the BATF was alerted to the practice of building Hi-Cap mags from replacement mag parts and they started showing up at matches to ask for verification that the Hi-Cap mags being used were legally purchased. Are you aware of anyone who comes to local matches who built their Hi-Caps illegally? I'm sure you know a few. Remember, it's a Felony. New shooters who wish to shoot Open should be able to shoot in a division with legally purchased equipment with no disadvantage. That's why we should add Open 10 if the AWB fails to be repealed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wakal Posted January 18, 2004 Share Posted January 18, 2004 Rmills: it is not the purview of the individual to "prove" to anyone that a magazine was, in fact, an ammunition feeding device of over ten rounds capacity prior to 13 September 1994. It is the purview of the government (and not just a specific tax-collection agency like the BATFE) to prove that a specific ammunition feeding device of over ten round capacity was built after 13 September 1994. They have to prove it was, we do not have to prove that it wasn't. Innocent until proven guilty and all that here in America, after all. And remember...any magazine made prior to the law being passed may be sold to anyone else! Tens, nay, perchance hundreds of thousands of SxI magazines floating around out there available for PERFECTLY LEGAL purchase by anyone with money living in America... ...who would have thunk it? L-10 is already an affront to civilized decency and sop to the gun grabbers who, frankly, don't care (they just want all guns gone). O-10 would be worse. Just my card-carrying American viewpoint Alex PS Has anyone else noticed that a perfectly legal 10-round .40 mag will hold (and feed) 11 rounds of 9mm? Did you know that putting a caliber not originally intended for that magazine is illegal, for the purpose of gaining over ten rounds capacity, according to our pals at the BATFE tax collection agency? AW Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wakal Posted January 18, 2004 Share Posted January 18, 2004 if the AWB fails to be repealed Ummm....NO. The AWB expires after ten years. You probably meant to say "...if the AWB is extended" AlexsplittinghairsWakal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kdj Posted January 18, 2004 Share Posted January 18, 2004 Rmills: And remember...any magazine made prior to the law being passed may be sold to anyone else! Tens, nay, perchance hundreds of thousands of SxI magazines floating around out there available for PERFECTLY LEGAL purchase by anyone with money living in America... Unfortunately, it appears that those of us living in California are not in America any more More seriously, there is no way to be competitive in Open if you live in CA, unless you were around before the recent ban on mag transfers and have some mags. The right thing to do about this is, of course, to change the CA law but that's not so easy. It does mean that no new Open shooters are going to come out of CA. Open 10 is clearly silly ... unless you live in CA??? Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warpspeed Posted January 18, 2004 Share Posted January 18, 2004 Alex, Thanks for having my back. I appreciate it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warpspeed Posted January 18, 2004 Share Posted January 18, 2004 rmills, Do you really think that the BATF is not aware of the practice you speak of? I had a LA County Sheriff tell me once that when ever they find a hi-cap mag on an individual they have detained for questioning, it is almost always marked "For LE use only". I think this is why the BATF and CA DOJ spend more time making sure FFL's are honest than questioning sport shooters on where they got there gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmittyFL Posted January 18, 2004 Share Posted January 18, 2004 How 'bout we just have awards for each shooter number registered at the match. Then you could be first shooter number 37, first shooter number 124, etc. Then we could all be happy.........Overheard at a match, "What division are you shooting in Harry?"......."I'm shooting in shooter number 72 division, I know it's going to be a highly contested division, but since I showed up at the match, I'm pretty sure I have it locked up." Rmills: Sorry to bust your balls, nothing personal. The competition is diluted enough as it is. In recent years we've gone from competing against half the people at a match (Open / Limited) to 1/4 of the competitors. (I love revolver and shoot it often, but lets face it, it doesn't draw many competitors) We don't have far to go before it's an attendance award. And that's at major's, not even considering the strain on the local level to keep up. I know when I started shooting they gave small pins to the division and class winners. I think when you're just starting out, it's a big deal to come away with something or to have a goal to shoot for at the local level. I don't see that much anymore, in large part I think, due to the increased divisions. It's just not economically feasible to have awards, no matter how small, at the local clubs anymore. I don't know what it's like to live in a state that outlaws mags, guns, and the like. I trully feel sorry that part of my country has come to that. But I would highly doubt the comment that no more open shooters are going to come out of California. As far as the ATF goes, I feel reasonably sure they know exactly what is going on. But you know what, we're not the people they are looking for. I feel quite confident they have better things to do than look for law abiding folks, enjoying a healthy family orientated sport. And if you're that concerned about it then I assume you never exceed the speed limit, always come to a complete stop at stop signs and don't cross the street without a cross-walk. Sorry for the long ass post, but as you can tell, I feel strongly about this subject. Not because I want to exclude anybody, but because I enjoy competition. That's the main aspect that attracted me to this great sport. The more divisions we have, the less and less the competition there is. It's already causing problems with the nationals, as evidenced by the format change. Anyway, I've ranted long enough, maybe this should have been in the hate forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted January 18, 2004 Share Posted January 18, 2004 The BATF doesn't care about building mags. They know the law is insane and they spend no money to enforce it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Larry Cazes Posted January 18, 2004 Share Posted January 18, 2004 Thread Drift Mode ON: Not to suggest that this is not an important issue, hell I live in California, but this issue just seems to inflame and divide everyone here whenever it comes up. Maybe this is best addressed personally at the national level by letting the BOD know how we each feel about additional divisions. In august I sent a note to M. Voight to let him know my feelings about possible changes to L10. Thanks Mike for a thoughtful response . Much better then arguing with friends here............ Mode OFF: Now back to our regularly scheduled programming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bucky Posted January 19, 2004 Share Posted January 19, 2004 The ban has been in affect for 10 years and yet the participation numbers at the natioanls seem to be unaffected. Ah, but the stats of which model guns have been shot has drastically changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted January 19, 2004 Share Posted January 19, 2004 The ban has been in affect for 10 years and yet the participation numbers at the natioanls seem to be unaffected. Ah, but the stats of which model guns have been shot has drastically changed. Bucky, I'm pretty sure the poster was comparing Race Gun Nats attendance with Nats Attendance ten years ago --- when there were just two divisions. In other words --- unless I'm missing something here it's an apples-apples comparison. Or have you noticed a change when comparing the models of guns shot at the Race Gun Nats today versus ten years ago? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
.40AET Posted January 19, 2004 Share Posted January 19, 2004 I'm no lobbiest, and I don't play one on TV. But maybe, we should unite our efforts and let our Senators know that we are against the extensin of this law. I'm sure that all of the gun grabbers in Washington are allready prepared to launch a strong campain to get this law extended for another 20 years. While the gun laws in Maryland don't seem to be as out of control as they are in California, they still suck s**t!! Perhaps our host can find a means to channel everyones view towards Washington. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bucky Posted January 19, 2004 Share Posted January 19, 2004 Nik, I knew exactly what he meant. There was a time when the field was more dominated by Caspians. Oddly , Caspians drifted off rather quickly after the ban. Bucky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogmaDog Posted January 19, 2004 Share Posted January 19, 2004 Just to offer a different perspective, perhaps with a bit of Devil advocacy: Rather than diluting the competition, is there a chance that adding an O-10 division would draw more shooters to the sport? Certainly Production div, and to some extent L-10 were created for this purpose--to draw in new shooters and reduce "defection" to IDPA. And I think they've worked. Why couldn't O-10 or O-R do the same (not that I'd ever be crazy enough to buy an open revolver )? DD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmills Posted January 19, 2004 Author Share Posted January 19, 2004 I think that it would take a serious drop off in open competitors at the National level to force such a thing. According to the USPSA web site, at the Race Gun Nationals we had 276 Limited competitors and 262 Open ones. Compared to the Factory Gun Nationals where there were 254 total for L-10, Production & Revolver.The AW ban affects both Limited & open as far as magazine capcity goes. The ban has been in affect for 10 years and yet the participation numbers at the natioanls seem to be unaffected. According to Front Sight, 25% of the competitors at the Limited Nationals were shooting it for the first time. If this number was < 5%, then you might have a case that the magazine restrictions were affecting USPSA participation. I don't have my FS with the Factory Gun Nationals stats handy but I'll look them up. I think they will be statistically the same as the Race Gun ones. Warpspeed: Your numbers are skewed. Keep in mind that there were two separate matches at the Race Gun Nationals allowing the same people who shot in Open and equal opportunity to shoot in Limited. At the Factory Gun Nationals, one had to choose their division. If that had not been the case, the numbers were be much larger in the separate divisions. In regards to Open 10, again the "I've got mine so who cares about them" USPSA attitude spews forth. Sure, forget the shooters in California, you don't live there so who cares. Also, for those who think that the ATF doesn't mind about building illegal hi-cap mags, why don't we invite them to give us their views on the issue? Some in this topic feel that it's OK to break the law. Let's make sure that anyone who reads the above posts stating that it's OK to break the law and that the ATF has no issues with it, feels comfortable risking criminal prosecution based on what opinions posters in this forum have. I'm sure that there are legal statutes that they must be able to reference or a letter from an ATF agent who states that while illegal, they don't care and they will not prosecute anyone who illegally builds hi-caps for sporting purposes. The rational for Open 10 is exactly the same for Limited 10. Let's allow shooters who can only purchase legal equipment to compete in this sport. STI and SVI have been out of pre-ban, hi-cap mags for many years, period. The only way a shooter can compete in Open today is to obtain legal hi-cap mags or build illegal ones. If 10 new shooters decided to shoot Open today, there are not enough pre-ban, hi-caps available for each one to purchase 4 or more. Look at the USPSA classifieds, Brian's classifieds, and other sources. The number is not there. If a vendor is stating that they have "New, legal, Pre-Ban, SVI or STI, hi-cap mags available", one has to question where these came from. In closing, this issue is not about creating another division which will dilute the current shooting pool, it's about providing an arena for new shooters to come and play with legal equipment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AFDavis11 Posted January 19, 2004 Share Posted January 19, 2004 I don't think the ban will continue, and I don't think the BATF really cares about competition shooting. Commit a crime with your race gun or start selling your hi-cap mags and there would be a world of hurt on everyone. But I was wondering about this idea. With new shooters being pretty confused about the rules would it be possible for gun clubs to have a "base-line gun recommendation". As such it would likely be say a "1911 style gun" of some sort. And have this club provide the high cap mags for the baseline gun. It seems to me you only need one or two to be competitive. The club could get some donated and rent them out as an additional expense to the shooter. The money could go back to the individual who donated them or the club if they bought them. I could buy a base line 1911, practice with it with legal mags, and compete in Limited all I want (at an increased cost to me each match). Now some guys can pay every match for the mags and some guys can just rent them occasionally as they progress from U to GM to see how they are doing against the really good shooters. And ofcourse at some point they will buy their own in the process. It would be likely that the club would eventually start to actually make a profit at this also. If you rent one high cap mag to me at a match wouldn't that be pretty helpful. I mean for most stages doesn't one mag with one 10 rounder work for most stages? I'm asking here because I'm really not sure. But atleast I could see where I fit on the competition ladder on most of the stages. And I would be well willing to pay an extra $5.00 to rent a hi-cap mag. At two comps a month that would generate $120 bucks per mag. Just a thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jhgtyre Posted January 19, 2004 Share Posted January 19, 2004 [Moderator Mode] Keep the topic centered on Open 10 as a new division. Digressing into legal rants about hi-caps will get this topic closed. [/MM] -ld Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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