Flexmoney Posted January 21, 2004 Author Share Posted January 21, 2004 And, like Brian said, inserting a moving object into a fixed (not moving) object, is a hell of a lot simpler than both moving. I am not looking to move both the gun and the mag at the same time...not until after the two have meet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted January 21, 2004 Share Posted January 21, 2004 - Post-pause is what I am looking to tweak. I can nail draws in the high .80's and low .90's for hits at 18y. I am able to do that by presenting the gun to my index/NPA. On my reloads, however, my presentation becomes a bit deformed.On the tough stuff (that we actually have to aim on), this costs time. I'm going to suggest "get the gun up in front of your face" might help (or might not, but it gives me something to write about). I had this problem with draws recently-- I could do .7's and .8's, but not consistently enough. A (real) GM wandered by, slapped me in the back of the head and said "What you're doing is throwing the gun out there at the end of your arms and looking for the dot.. when it's there, you're quick, when it's not, you're slow". Solution: "Get the gun up in front of your face.. fast. Acquire the sights and push the muzzle out to the target." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin c Posted January 21, 2004 Share Posted January 21, 2004 As mag is leaving, gun is positioned as in pic, and tilted slightly so you can just see the mag well opening.The key for the first sentence above is keeping the gun absolutely motionless from the instant the spent mag clears the gun till the new mag is seated. Brian, your comments, and the flash pics, seem to say and show that the mag will fall out to the weak hand side. I've seen people flick the mag out to the strong hand side (may be partly to get onto the mag release?), straight down, and to the weak hand side. I like what you are saying about keeping the gun still, but do you ever have the ejected mag jam the insertion of the fresh mag? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogmaDog Posted January 21, 2004 Share Posted January 21, 2004 Doing some dry fire practice the other night, I noticed I'm probably doing my reloads "wrong". I was bringing the gun back so the muzzle still pointed at the target, but the mag well was to the left, and the wrist was bent. I found it was more consistent to keep the shooting wrist straight, so the muzzle points up and to the weak side, and the mag well points pretty much straight toward the weak side--aligned with the weak hand and incoming mag. I've been holding my gun lower and closer to my body than Brian does in his pics. I'll have to try it a bit higher and farther out. Probably doesn't help with Flex's problem, but it's definitely helping me with my problems! Presentation is an "improvement area" for me too. I look forward to future posts. Thanks much, DogmaDog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rwmagnus Posted January 21, 2004 Share Posted January 21, 2004 Okay guys since we've hammered technique, just how are you using a timmer for your dry fire reload practice? I usually set a par time and go from there but am wondering if there is another way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.Hayden Posted January 21, 2004 Share Posted January 21, 2004 Following up on kevin's... if you don't "flick", I don't see how you can get rid of a magazine that you shot dry (I know, I know, but it happens). The quote was: absolutely motionless from the instant the spent mag clears the gun so I don't think this contradicts? I'm taking this to mean after the flip, but maybe not? For practice, if you can dump the empty mag fast, loaded (even with 1 or 2 rounds) should be mush easier. Do people practice with empty or dummy rounds? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogmaDog Posted January 21, 2004 Share Posted January 21, 2004 I practice with one mag full of dummy rounds, and one mag with a few dummy rounds in it. My mags drop free when empty without any trouble, but I have found in matches I sometimes fail to seat the mag completely, so using a full mag forces me to use enough pressure in practice to get the mag seated. When I use a timer, it is with a par time set. I start aimed in at something, and as soon as the beep goes, I start the reload, and try to reaquire the sights by the time the beep goes again. I think anyone who flicks the mag to the strong side is wasting time and motion. If your mags don't just drop free on their own, you have a mechanical problem. Oh, and we haven't hammered technique quite yet...I still want to hear how people address the presentation from the reload. DogmaDog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.Hayden Posted January 21, 2004 Share Posted January 21, 2004 DD... if you drop an empty mag, does it drop away fast enough, or does it get in the way? I'm using a Kimber SS, the mag drops very slowly, and does get in the way... the flick definetly gets it out of the way.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogmaDog Posted January 21, 2004 Share Posted January 21, 2004 BK, They spring out of there pretty fast. I'm using Wilson 10 round mags, and ejecting them with the slide closed (usually) DD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.Hayden Posted January 21, 2004 Share Posted January 21, 2004 Thanks. I'm using CMC Power-10's. I'll have to borrow someone's Wilson and give that a try. I know if I can beat it falling, somethings wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detlef Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 tightloop, Old par time for this in the 80's was 4.5 for all A hits at 7 yds. I can do it in about 3.4, so it is about .6 slower than the dry fire drill I run. I suspect that much of that improvement comes from gear, not from technique. When I strap on my Prod gun (no magwell), Prod holster (MadDog), and position the mag pouches behind the hip, I have trouble beating 4 sec. The "pause" at the mag opening is "extremely" important, the first mag change takes 1.3-1.5 sec between shots, the second one 1.5-1.7 sec. That's the kind of gear that I believe was used when the 4.5 sec par was set. Maybe they/we weren't all that bad back then... And yes, I noticed that, once the mag has cleared the sharp edges of the opening, I pull the gun down on it and push the mag up into it simultaneously. --Detlef Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tightloop Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 Detlef If you have ever seen Chippie McCormick do his thing when he was in his prime, you know he wasn't all that bad...we developed it with him, Jeff Wassom and John Dixon who weren't bad either. I, of course, was the weak sister... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew_Mink Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 While trying the flick technique, I missed the magwell and stuck a Glock mag in the bottom side of the grip. The exposed metal at the rear of the mag just cut up the grip about 1/2" and stuck there. I don't use the flick anymore. I figure it is just extra motion I don't need. I reach for spare, eject, bring spare up, bring gun in and down, put new mag in and reacquire target. Most of the work I had to do on that was getting the gun canted right to match the magazine coming up. That and training myself to actually look at the magwell instead of just kinda seeing it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErikW Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 I've flip-flopped on flicking. People told me it was bad but when I watched myself on video I decided it was a result of shifting my grip to reach the button. Now, after having experienced some excellent reloads and finally done them under a second, I think the flick is bad. Keep the gun as straight up and down as possible; the mag ejects faster that way. Just think of all the wasted motion of a strong-side flick.... you wouldn't want that much wasted motion in your draw. On my best reloads, I've felt, "Whoa, I'm going to crash this fresh mag into the old mag!" because I could see both at the same time. Now, about the in-your-face reload... Your sights have to be below your eye level; below chin level works for me. Having your sights above eye level is akin to the porpoise draw, which costs tenths of a second in acquiring the target. You don't want to see a magwell or your hands when it's time to see the target. That's two cents worth from someone who doesn't feel he's worthy of contributing to a reload thread in which others can do .80 reloads. I'm not worthy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shred Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 TJ teaches a slight outward angle as the mag comes out to prevent the crashing problems, but it's not as extreme as a 'flick'. On the in-your-face topic, what I'm thinking is if the gun is too low, you end up throwing it out to the end of your arms before picking up the sights. Don't do that. Likewise, listen to Erik and don't block your vision either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Detlef Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 the sights are "at" eye level precisely when you shoot. So the simple act of rotating the gun during the reload brings the sights below eye level, but also the mag well above its shooting level. The former is what Erik meant, the latter what I meant. The two don't necessarily conflict. And yes, don't elevate your sights above eye level, wastes motion and obstructs view. But, for me, bringing the gun down at all (i.e. doing much else than just rotating it) is detrimental. To each their own... --Detlef Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted January 24, 2004 Share Posted January 24, 2004 Detlef, The .80s reference was pertaining to warp drive reloads, consistently hitting A's on a 5 yd target, like in the "2 load 2 load 2" drill for example. The only time I've ever had a mag crash is if I didn't get the mag released soon enough, for whatever reason. It may have happened twice. I have the good fortune of being able to set my pistol up so that I don't have to shift it in my hand in order to release the mag. So with that in mind - I need to clarify - "absolutely motionless from the instant the spent mag clears the gun." Technically that's not totally correct. Sorry. Because, immediately after calling the shot before the reload, my right hand begins moving to its destination depicted in "flash 2." The gun takes the shortest trip possible in order to arrive there quickly. There's no flicking, twisting, or gyrating whatsoever. It just goes straight from the index to the position in flash 2. And on the way the mag comes out, but sometimes the mag be out slightly before the gun reaches its "waiting in stillness" destination. Which is also why TL noticed my elbow is more out to the right in flash 1. It's "out to the right" because that's just where it happens to be during the time the mag is coming out but the gun hasn't reached its destination. The elbow's movement - which from the index, describes an arc "down and in" - is the result of moving the gun directly from the index to its destination. Once the mag is out, your gun is like a bus, waiting at the station. It's just sitting there, idling but perfectly still, patiently waiting for its cargo before it heads back down the road. be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Posted January 25, 2004 Share Posted January 25, 2004 Brain, thanks for the excellent description! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 30, 2004 Author Share Posted January 30, 2004 Saul Kirsch has a video clip of one of my shooting heroes. It shows Travis T's reload. You gotta look close. If you can view it frame-by-frame, look at it from between seconds five and six. I'm no Travis, but I'm on the same path as his reload technique. - The gun waits high. - The head stays up. - The eyes look at the hole. - TT keeps the gun stationary. --- On the presentation, the gun is above the line-of-sight, and has to be brought down onto target. (BTW....TT rocks!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted May 2, 2008 Author Share Posted May 2, 2008 I love some of these old threads. Fantastic discussions. Once the mag is out, your gun is like a bus, waiting at the station. It's just sitting there, idling but perfectly still, patiently waiting for its cargo before it heads back down the road.be Neat analogy with the bus. Let me play off that a bit... Instead of a bus, lets think of a boat...sitting along the dock, but not tied up to the dock. If a bunch of people come and jump into the boat at the same time, then the boat is going to shift in the water. After the people are in the boat...the boat is now in a different position. So, where does the gun float to, or end up, just after the mag is seated, but right before the gun is presented? If the gun ends up in front of the eyes, then it is blocking the vision. In many of our cases, we have already roughly located the next target...so that might be as big of a deal as it is in a tactical situation or in a field course (where we still need to look to what is next) . What having the gun that high does do is alter our presentation of the gun. Like shred mentioned, we don't get to see the sight or dot as we are presenting the gun out. Guys that have the reps in (like TT , Jake and Anderson, etc.), those guys can get to where they need to be just from so much practice that the gun just almost has to go to the right spot for them. However, if the shooter finishes seating the mag and the gun is just below the line of sight then that might allow the shooter to present the gun in a manner that allows them to get on the sights/dot sooner than full extension. (see shreds posts from earlier on the importance of that folks) Ideally, shooters would have a perfect index...like TT and some of the other studs. And, as Anderson said in an earlier post...do it a million times in practice and it might work itself out. I'm still in the Burner camp of presenting the gun the same way all the time...pressing out from the high ready position. This just ads consistency, which I know would help many shooters (especially those that aren't getting their reps in). The reality of my reload is that my muzzle is pointing off to the weak side some too. So, even though I might have the gun a bit lower and I can see the gun being presented to the target...it's not a straight out press for me. The front sight kinda whips in from the side a bit as I present to the target. Lots of great info on this thread...lots. I especially like the stuff about working it backwards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Limitless13 Posted May 5, 2008 Share Posted May 5, 2008 Guys, this is some great stuff, especially for me as a newer guy. This is incredibly ironic timing as I just finished posting some video of my dry fire training on youtube. Now that I'm looking at it, I see A LOT of extraneous movement. Got some good stuff to work on tonight. Anyway, here's me. http://www.youtube.com/user/Knoc7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevin c Posted May 7, 2008 Share Posted May 7, 2008 More thoughts (four years later). I'm now trying to find the balance between slamming the reload home for the sake of speed and sure seating, versus floating it in for the sake of a smooth and quick target acquisition. I get the bounce Flex mentioned ramming the mag home hard. I also get dramatic blown reloads if I don't hit the well right (mag cartwheeling over my shoulder). Sliding the mag home smoothly helps reduce both issues. But now sometimes the mag doesn't seat and ends up dropping on the next shot. Sometimes I find myself doing what I thought I'd gotten rid of years ago - double pumping the reload (seat the mag and then reseat it). I like smooth and not so hard. I gotta find smooth and just hard enough... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted May 7, 2008 Share Posted May 7, 2008 A technical description of the "waiting bus" location... The mag well is approximately between the center and the right side of my body, and rotated to where I can just see the line between the magwell and the frame. And the top of the pistol is just under my line of sight to the target. be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyin40 Posted May 8, 2008 Share Posted May 8, 2008 I had a couple of fumbles on reloads this weekend. On both I was shooting on the move shooting pretty much forward or alittle right or left but basically moving straight down the course of fire. This week I have been working on it and figured it out. I have been practicing my moving reloads from side to side and practicing none as I'm shooting while moving forward. So this week I have done quite a few and worked it out. A moving reload needs to be practiced just the same as a standing reload. Flyin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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