Why is production slower?

[Steve Anderson]

This came up in another thread and didn't get tossed around too much...

Somebody remarked that the production times were generally slower  than lim 10 at the FGN's, and we have a few possibilities:

1. The better shooters are in lim 10

2. The triggers on 1911s are mechanically faster

3. Production shooters are a little more conservative/deliberate, needing more A's to win the stage. (They just can't afford too many C's)

4. Holster/mag/placement restrictions are slowing them down.

5. ??????

Now that the team Benos super squad is back, let's hear it.

I'm leaning towards #3 myself.

SA

[sfinney]

I'm leaning towards all the above.......  

and it kind of like comparing a fast street car to a race car.... sure, the same driver is going to make both cars go fast, but behind the wheels of the real race car (Limited Gun), he 's gonna go faster than the street car.

I've heard the arguments that 9mm production guns should be faster just because they are 9mms with lower recoil, but that doesn't hold water... a properly set up major caliber Limited gun should be faster than any production gun, skill being equal. Now, a Limited gun in 9mm should be faster than a .40, technically....  but hte 9mm Limited gun should still be faster than the 9mm production gun, its just inherent in the design, and the single action trigger.

And the pure race holster rigs do make a differnce.

Notice that I'm not even addessing shooter skill; skill being equal, it's the design of the equipment that is making the difference.

[vluc]

Steve, I tend to agree with your #3 & 4.  I shot and RO'd a local match yesterday, and was one of the few production shooters to run through.  As I was RO'ing and the scorer, I began to notice a familiar trait throughout the 6 or 7 squads that came through the field course when I was there.

Inevitably, the open, limited and l-10 guys & gals blazed through a 33 round field course.  By comparison the production folks were slower.  Here is the rub...there were only a couple of "C"s and "D's" by the production, but I was scoring a heck of a lot more Alpha-Charlie and Alpha-Deltas, as well as 2 Charlies for a good number of those folks.  Not to say that there were not a lot of 2 Alpha's, but if that's what a red dot and a big stick does, well....

Now if I ever remember to keep track of my scores, i'd like to go back and recalculate them as if all shooters were scored the same, regardless of what was shot.  Just for grins and giggles, would not prove a thing probably!

I've shot some of the other pistols in those classes and they are a darn sight easier to control than my stock 9mm...so I don't buy the argument that my 9 is faster due to the recoil.  It would be nice to see production able to be run with two types of equipment...speed holsters and mags in front for those that want it and stock for those that do not.

One of the realizations to come out of really watching these guys go is that they are geared to points and speed, and that is really not what interests me when I shoot.  Heck, a zen moment...I realized I really like the accuracy part of the shooting with those iron sights of mine, and feel comfortable again and proud that I am a production shooter!

[Steve Anderson]

Yep. That make a ton of sense.

If I blaze a stage balls out and throw C's like I did last year, and hit no shoots like they were targets, all somebody has to do his hit A's and miss no shoots and they've got plenty of time to do that...

I think the gear placement isue is a little over-stated, too. Now for an 10 year veteran open shooter to have to move his gear and use a real holster, I can understand the problem, but if you practice it hard... no big deal.

SA

PS, I can see I'm earning myself a benos nickname here...

(Edited by Steve Anderson at 12:29 pm on July 29, 2002)

[ErikW]

I think Production is only marginally slower due to holster and trigger. I think it's the Minor scoring that puts more of an emphasis on accuracy and slows down the times.

[cpty1]

This one should be interesting.  My thoughts to your questions, in order:

1.  Jarrett, Sevigny and Langdon shot production at the FGNs.  I rest my case.

2.  Agreed, but I think the point is of no major significance.  There are plenty of people who shoot both production guns and 1911s with no difference in split times as recorded on a timer.

3.  Agreed, but the statement as to times was specifically related to the FGN shoot-offs which were all steel.  No worry about A vs C hits there.

4.  Gets my vote.

5 - ????? - I shoot a Glock 34 in production and a 35 in Limited-10.  There is little difference in my overall times, split times, or my point count with either gun, so I don't buy the minor should be faster theory.  Granted, this could affect different shooters in different ways.  In a match, where C and D hits are penalized more for the minor calibers, there could be some people who slow up a bit to compensate.  

I think the difference in times at the FGN shootoffs was due to the rules limitations.  The shootoff format magnified those differences where more time was spent drawing and reloading than actually shooting.  Production shooters were using non competition type holsters worn behind the hip.  Mags were in non competition type carriers also worn behind the hip.  Mags could have no extension baseplate for ease of seating.  Most, if not all the production guns in the shootoff had no magwell to ease reloading either.  I think these things account for the difference in times between Lim-10 and production.  Also to be considered is the format agreed upon by the shooters.  A tenth or two would have been saved if the production guys, like the Lim-10 guys, had voted to do the mag change anywhere in the string instead of specifically before the stop popper which was a US popper.  Again with the thought that you can engage a standard popper quicker after a reload than a US popper.    In a match environment, the gap gets larger.  Based on my own tests, I lose a tenth or two on the draw and on reloads when using production gear as opposed to my Limited/Lim-10 gear.  Let's say there are two shooters of equal skill, one in Lim-10 and one in production.  If the production guy loses a tenth or two on every draw and every reload, not counting minor power factor scoring, that is a big difference in match points at the end of the match.  Especially when you multiply that small amount of time, let's say by 19, which was the number of stages at the FGNs.   I love shooting production, but you have to be sure you're comparing apples to apples, which you aren't if you're comparing production and Lim-10 shooters, even of the exact same skill level.

[Steve Anderson]

"If the production guy loses a tenth or two on every draw and every reload, not counting minor power factor scoring, that is a big difference in match points at the end of the match.  Especially when you multiply that small amount of time, let's say by 19, which was the number of stages at the FGNs."

That's the first compelling argument I've heard yet for possibility #4, a good point. Maybe we should see HOW MUCH slower the times were...

"Agreed, but the statement as to times was specifically related to the FGN shoot-offs which were all steel.  No worry about A vs C hits there."

Also, the original comment was the match itself, not the shootoffs. You were still shooting, we were already gabbing...

SA

(Edited by Steve Anderson at 1:19 pm on July 29, 2002)

[Flexmoney]

1.  Better shooters  Nobody has been able to crack the REAL Big-Dogs...Leatham, Barnhart, Jarrett...at least, not consistanly and not at this game.  Travis and Phil, Sevigny and Langdon...this guys can kick ass (somebody is due).  

2.  Triggers.  I might give the 1911 an edge in accuracy (at distance) due to weight and crispness, but not speed.  I call this even in our game.

3.  Conservative/Deliberate.  Maybe at my level.  But, winning stages at the nationals...even the Limited guys have to get their hits.  *

4.  Holster/mag/placement.  This is where I'd put a lot of it.  Reaching back for that second, third and fourth mag takes time.

Major vs Minor recoil/control  I am fairly certain that I can shoot my minor load out of my Glock at a faster pace than my Major load.  But, my Major load kinda sucks.  Of course, the question is...can a stock Minor gun run with a race-tuned Limited gun in Major...with the Big-Dogs at the controls.

Perhaps a bigger consideration might be that the guys in Limited10 just have lots more time, experience and confidence in their equipment.  Jarrett hasn't ran in Production long (and he mentions the lack of a mag-well as slowing him down).  Sevigny and Langdon...as good as they are, they serve a lot of their time in IDPA.  The super sqaud...most of the Lim10 guys used tried and true equipment in a game that is their every-day gig.

So, my take (guess) is that it is a mix of (a) holster and mag pouch position, ( race gun vs. stock gun, © big USPSA match experience and time in the saddle.

(Edited by Flexmoney at 5:15 pm on July 29, 2002)

[EricW]

Could somebody please educate me here?  How can shooting A's be MORE important in Production than in the other divisions.  Since everybody's shooting Minor, shooting A's is LESS relevant.  I thought that was the point of scoring everyone minor to begin with.  I am NOT saying that shooting A's is unimportant, but A's are not more important in Production than in other divisions.

Triggers - I don't buy this for a minute.  The few tenth's you save over a course is measurable, but is not THE difference.

Reloads - Stubby mag releases + No basepads + No magwell + reaching back for the mag = lots more time spent reloading.  I'll bet if you measured the speed differences between Prod & Lim10 on a timer, that's where 75% of the time is going.  

Holster / Placement - Only a few tenths difference in speed is gained with the race holster, so I'm not buying into this argument.   Mag pouches are a different story altogether.

Major vs. Minor - I think this one is better summed up by "recoil control."  Production guns are just lighter and/or the weight is not distributed strategically along the gun.  You're losing some time there, especially in a high round count course.  It's more than Major vs. Minor as my Major 40 STI is much more controllable than my 9mm Glock.

My 2 billion yen,

E

[ErikW]

I don't know if this is thread drift or not, but shooting As is very important if you are shooting Major and is of utmost importance if you are shooting Minor, even if everybody else is. Why? The game is score divided by time. You must start with the biggest possible number of points before you divide by time and the best way to accrue points is to collect 5 per shot. You don't want to waste your time by getting only 60% or 20% of the possible value per shot.

[Flexmoney]

Right...points per second...should be more important to take the time to get the maximum points per shot while shooting Minor.

But hey...this thread is about speed.  Why were the Production guys taking longer to shoot a stage at the FG nationals?  Were the Production guys slowing down cause they were afraid to miss the A's or was it more equipment.  

I noticed that in the first couple of days, Jarrett didn't seem to be getting all the A's that were out there.  I don't think he was slowing down for them.  In fact,  it appeared like he might have been rushing.  (Maybe trying to make up time lost 'cause of those reloads?)

[Steve Anderson]

If you hurry and get Cs, someone else will get A's just a hair slower and beat you.

I speak from experience.

SA

[EricW]

OK folks, either you're missing my point or my point wasn't clear.  All I'm asking is, WHAT CHANGES in scoring that would compel one to shoot more A's in Production than in Limited?  I can't think of a reason why it would be more compelling to shoot an A in one division or another.  

I *can* understand why it is more important to shoot all A's when shooting Minor against folks shooting Major.  Aside from that, I think everybody's head-tripping themselves over the "A's slowing Production down" hokum.

I'll bet if you Pareto charted where the time differences are, reloading will come up numero uno.

E

(Edited by EricW at 9:03 pm on July 29, 2002)

[Flexmoney]

EricW,

I am tracking with ya.

(My take)

You are saying to forget any other division...

If you are shooting Production, you and your competition are shooting at the same A's, C's, & D's (whatever point value may be assigned to them).

That I agree with.

-----------

What I think Erik Warren & Steve Anderson are saying is that with minor scoring (even against other minor shooters), accuracy is, often, more important than speed.  With minor scoring, a C or D hit does not give enough of a speed advantage to negate the lost points by not taking the extra time to get the A hit.

That I agree with too.

-----------

I think that all comes down to the Comstock scoring (points per second), and the individuals skill level.

Example:  (shooting minor) (assume best effort at speed)

If I transition into a target and get my first shoot off in .25 and my second shot off in .15 (.40 total) and hit two C's (six points), I have scored a hit factor of 15 on that target.  

If I come in a take a bit more time to line my sights up, say...  0.30 on the transition and .20 on the split, and that allows me to hit the A's (10 points), I will have shot a 20 hit factor on that target.

[EricW]

OK, now I'm hip to the point weighting issue.  I guess I just never cared.  I just shake my head and laugh at the yokels who think they can shoot C's fast enough to win in any division.  I haven't seen it yet.

I tend to regard any hole outside the A box as a personal failure on my part and let the rest take care of itself.

E

[Steve Anderson]

Flex,

Thanks for clarifying what I couldn't figure out how to explain. (sounds almost zen, doesn't it?)

SA

[skeeter]

i shoot my glock 17 while i was getting my 24 worked on with it in my limited holster i went just as fast or even faster. but i wasn't worried about points just went fast. i think it has to do with where the holsters and mags are you just can't make great reloads.

[David Olhasso]

In my opinion, production shooters are slower than L10 shooters because:

1) Reloads.  The magazine pouch position combined with the lack of magwells tends to slow us down.  This is not to say that a production shooter can't nail a reload, it is just a bit harder to do it consistently.  One of my personal reloading problems is that I do not have an extended mag button on my production gun and every once in awhile, I have a hard time hitting the button.

2) Minor power factor.  When each C costs you 2 points, you really have no choice but to slow down.  

3) Grip.  On my limited gun, I was able to modify the grip, grind the frame, replace the beavertail, and replace the trigger pad so that gun fit perfect in my hand.  This helps in the draw, target acquisition, and most importantly in controlling recoil and driving the gun to the next shot.  In production, you can't modify the frame at all and you can only change the grips to those offered by the factory.

4) Weight of gun.  The weight of the gun can only be changed by 2 oz in a production gun.  My limited gun is a long/wide frame plus a tungsten guide rod and all that stationary weight helps me control the gun.

Production shooters are not always slower than L10.  Sevigny's Glock trigger is 100% stock, but that doesn't slow him down at all.  Remember, Dave Sevigny did win one stage outright at the FGN (beating all the L10 guys as well as the production guys)

[DBChaffin]

David,

    Welcome to the forum.  It's good to have you on board.  Congrats on your finish in Production at the factory nats and on being the only GM in Production.   Great first post by the way.   I hope you'll be able to hang around and post from time to time.  

[Flexmoney]

Dave,

Great to have you on board.

Steve, Nothing like hearing it from the top...I guess that should answer our question pretty well.

[Steve Anderson]

Wow. As I read the other posts on this topic I was thinking, "sure would be great if our ONE production GM would show up and chime in on this."

And lo and behold...Very Cool.

For a guy like me who only shoots production and spends hours with the one model, 1, 3, and 4 should be less of an issue than for someone who goes back and forth a lot between guns.

So we're left with slowing down for accuracy, which is what my own strategy has been lately.

(My D class lim 10 buddy told me at the last match, " I'm shootin' major so I'm happy if they're on the paper." He may be beyond help....)

BTW David, what is your production gun?

SA

[Nik Habicht]

Dave,

All I can say is, It's about time!  Welcome aboard.

[Flexmoney]

I hear the Dave shoots a SIG.  (But he may have a Robar treated Glock in his safe that could be for sale.)

[Storm]

I don't think minor scoring has as big an effect at the upper level (M,GM) as it does on the lower level shooters (B,C,D). The top shooters are shooting mostly A's.

I looked over that stats for the FGN's. TGO & Jerry shot about 96% of the possible points. If you assume they shot only A's & C's, that figures out to be 80% A's.  Todd & Sevigny shot about 92% possible points. Amazingly, that figures out to be 80% A's too. I thought that was kinda interesting.

[Duane Thomas]

"That's the first compelling argument I've heard yet for possibility #4, a good point. Maybe we should see HOW MUCH slower the times were..."

I actually tested this about a year ago. Did an article on it, too. Comparing my Blade-Tech Standard Belt Holster to my Safariland race rig, the difference in draw speed was a whopping .08 second in favor of the competition gear. With the reloads, Blade-Tech double mag pouch behind the hip versus Safariland 771 over the belly button, the difference in time was a bit more severe - .18 second in favor of the race gear. So the difference in performance is definitely there. OTOH it's not nearly as wide a gap as many folks who don't have a lot of experience shooting both systems think it is.