Table start gun positions

[lugnut]

I've been competing in USPSA for over a year now and love the sport. It' more freestyle that IDPA and that's kinda cool... I'm posting this because I'm really not sure of the "rules" in this particular situation and as a relatively new RO I'm still not clear even after lengthy discussions after with RO at this stage.

WSB specified (among a few other things) that the shooter starts with a empty gun on the table with loaded mag on the table. Additionally I don't think the WSB specified where the shooter's hands should be at the start. Some shooters started with the gun on its side... with the shooter's hands just above the grips of the gun- but not touching it. This was allowed which after reading 8.2.2 seems like it shouldn't have been allowed, right?

In the rule book I just read

"8.2.2 The competitor assumes the start position as specified in the written

stage briefing. Unless otherwise specified, the competitor must stand

erect, facing downrange, with arms hanging naturally by the sides. A

competitor who attempts or completes a course of fire where an incorrect

start position was used must be required by a Range Official to

reshoot the course of fire. “Arms hanging naturally by sides” is illustrated

in Appendix E3."

I decided that I would place my Glock standing upright... held up by the bottom near the muzzle in the front and the mag opening on the back- muzzle pointing downrange of course. I was told this was not allowed. I asked why and was told it was gaming. I then placed my gun on top of the magazine (to keep a gap on the bottom side of grips... I was told that was not allowed either. I realize this is not a huge advantage but I really want to understand the rules. The RO politely discussed with me that none of the ROs would allow that and at the local club match it's assumed even if it's not in the WSBs.

I'm not here to complain- but I really want to understand this. I couldn't find anything on table starts, just the 8.2.2. I couldn't find anything else in the rule book on this.. unless I just can't search well!

Thanks!

[BSeevers]

Gaming is allowed and is good shooting. Its not just table starts it applies to the entire sport. Running a course is freestyle unless its forbidden in the course description and within any applicable rules of course.

They could just added the word lying "flat" and you could not do it. Its a bad course description and next time challenge it if you want to and get it thrown out of the match.

By the way I would do it at every local club in US if I wanted but I'll let you in on something. You would NEVER get to do it at a major because of bullet proofing stage description so I always set it on its side cause thats better practice.

Edited April 11, 2010 by BSeevers

[lugnut]

They could just added the word lying "flat" and you could not do it. Its a bad course description and next time challenge it if you want to and get it thrown out of the match.

I can understand that something that simple could get left out in the WSB (laying flat) but my concern would be different RO interpretations hence it should have been allowed? I've run many IDPA matches so I can certainly understand the need for consistency and there's always something that is overlooked!

I had no desire at all to get it thrown out or challenge it.. not for what I get paid for this stuff. Just trying to learn and have fun.

[atbarr]

Mis-read!

Duh,

A.T.

Edited April 11, 2010 by atbarr

[lugnut]

By the way I would do it at every local club in US if I wanted but I'll let you in on something. You would NEVER get to do it at a major because of bullet proofing stage description so I always set it on its side cause thats better practice.

That response is what I love about this forum. Great point- thanks Bill.

[BSeevers]

They could just added the word lying "flat" and you could not do it. Its a bad course description and next time challenge it if you want to and get it thrown out of the match.

I can understand that something that simple could get left out in the WSB (laying flat) but my concern would be different RO interpretations hence it should have been allowed? I've run many IDPA matches so I can certainly understand the need for consistency and there's always something that is overlooked!

I had no desire at all to get it thrown out or challenge it.. not for what I get paid for this stuff. Just trying to learn and have fun.

The basic concept is "If it doesn't say you can't do it, then you can" (within rules)

Thats the basis of gaming. Its really pretty simple if you ask me but we all also have to deal with bonehead RO's. Remember they are unpayed volunteers with 16 hrs "training" so no need to get panties in a bunch.

[ima45dv8]

Do you by any chance have the exact wording of the WSB available? Without it, it's kind of hard to say what should or shouldn't have been allowed with the gun or the hands.

[lugnut]

Do you by any chance have the exact wording of the WSB available? Without it, it's kind of hard to say what should or shouldn't have been allowed with the gun or the hands.

I don't. I know it did not say gun has to be on its side.

[Flexmoney]

The RO politely discussed with me that none of the ROs would allow that and at the local club match it's assumed even if it's not in the WSBs.

Bullshit.

If the WSB reads "gun on table...mag on table", then that is the requirement. No more. No less.

If it wants something else, it needs to say EXACTLY what it wants in the WSB.

What the RO wants doesn't much matter.

The thing to do there is to call for the CRO, then the Range Master. The RM can properly re-write the WSB, if it won't matter to the shooting/scoring of any previous shooters.

[Nik Habicht]

While appealing it up the chain of command (RO/CRO/RM/Arbitration) is technically the right call, at a Level 1, I'd be asking for the match director....

When asked as the match director, I tend to consult the stage designer, and may interview squads that already shot the stage, before reaching a decision. I'd like that decision to present the challenge equitably to all competitors....

As a shooter, I always need to decide whether what I'm being asked to do by the RO significantly affects my plan -- if it does, it might be worth having the conversation and all the distractions that go with it. If the benefits of challenge don't outweigh the costs, compliance is easier. (Basically Bill's practical suggestion -- you won't get this option at a major, so practice like you'd shoot a major....)

[George Jones]

Tow words which are (thankfully) not to be found in the rulebook:

Intent

Assumption

[aztecdriver]

+1 for what Flex said, including the BS. I'm amazed at how many people make up rules or repeat something someone else told to them as gospel. There's always a rule book with me... and I use it often. I swear, one day I'm going to tour the country looking for how many "local" rules I can document and write an article.

[Glshooter]

I was at this match and on Lugnut's squad. The WSB stated "gun resting comfortably on table" believe it or not. Or peacefully on table. Either way, I agreed that he should have been allowed to prop the gun up since it did not state it had to be flat. Who'd have thunk that gaming was not allowed in USPSA?

Edited April 12, 2010 by Glshooter

[Schutzenmeister]

I am frequently amazed at the number of shooters who will argue over the roughly 1/10 second advantage that may be gained by such "gaming" and then ingnore their basic shooting skills. It is far more gratifing, IMO, to save that 1/10 of a second by shooting faster and more accurately ... or perhaps saving 1/2 to 3/4 of a second by practicing my reloading skills than to worry about the minor amount gamed on the position of the gun on a table.

Just my point of view ... no offense intended to any individual.

[mactiger]

I am frequently amazed at the number of shooters who will argue over the roughly 1/10 second advantage that may be gained by such "gaming" and then ingnore their basic shooting skills. It is far more gratifing, IMO, to save that 1/10 of a second by shooting faster and more accurately ... or perhaps saving 1/2 to 3/4 of a second by practicing my reloading skills than to worry about the minor amount gamed on the position of the gun on a table.

Just my point of view ... no offense intended to any individual.

Well, you are welcome to your opinion, but it's not really germane to the question asked. The point is, if you want the gun to be in a particular position, you MUST spell it out in the WSB. Same thing for any specific start position, although in this case, if there was no start position specified, the default is indeed standing upright with hands naturally at your sides, not bending over the gun with your hands right next to it. Since we don't have a copy of the WSB, we can't tell, but if it was as stated, propping the gun would be legal, standing over it would not. George spelled it out: Assumption and Intent aren't in the rules.

Troy

[mhs]

I am frequently amazed at the number of shooters who will argue over the roughly 1/10 second advantage that may be gained by such "gaming" and then ingnore their basic shooting skills. It is far more gratifing, IMO, to save that 1/10 of a second by shooting faster and more accurately ... or perhaps saving 1/2 to 3/4 of a second by practicing my reloading skills than to worry about the minor amount gamed on the position of the gun on a table.

Just my point of view ... no offense intended to any individual.

You post as if gaming and practicing are mutually exclusive. If you enjoy reaping the benefits of your practice, think how much sweeter it would be if you could show that in addition to be dedicated and physically skilled, you are capable of independent thought, and get a higher score for it.

[lugnut]

I am frequently amazed at the number of shooters who will argue over the roughly 1/10 second advantage that may be gained by such "gaming" and then ingnore their basic shooting skills. It is far more gratifing, IMO, to save that 1/10 of a second by shooting faster and more accurately ... or perhaps saving 1/2 to 3/4 of a second by practicing my reloading skills than to worry about the minor amount gamed on the position of the gun on a table.

Just my point of view ... no offense intended to any individual.

You post as if gaming and practicing are mutually exclusive. If you enjoy reaping the benefits of your practice, think how much sweeter it would be if you could show that in addition to be dedicated and physically skilled, you are capable of independent thought, and get a higher score for it.

Exactly. I came in 3/35 in production on that stage... shooting it fairly well. I'm not always known as a creative thinker so I was excited to try something I thought might help.. if just a little. The more I shoot the more I know all the little things added up made the difference when things are tight.

[Lee King]

I've been designing stages (at our local match) with intentionally vague descriptions just to let people practice thinking outside the box.

I.e. "Standing at Table, manipulate some prop". The position of "standing at" is completely subjective as is "manipulate". I'm ok with the shooter standing close enough to the table but in front, reaching back behind them with their fingertips barely able to move the prop. It's all part of the game and prop management is often a freestyle problem in and of itself.

[Pat Miles]

Troy,

As far as start position, why is the default position standing upright with hands naturally at your sides. If that is what the designer wanted then shouldn't that be stipulated in the WSB? I am asking this out of curiosity. If the position of the gun should be spelled out why not the shooter start position?

CYa,

Pat

[aztecdriver]

Troy,

As far as start position, why is the default position standing upright with hands naturally at your sides. If that is what the designer wanted then shouldn't that be stipulated in the WSB? I am asking this out of curiosity. If the position of the gun should be spelled out why not the shooter start position?

CYa,

Pat

Because the rule book states:

8.2.2 The competitor assumes the start position as specified in the written stage briefing. Unless otherwise specified, the competitor must stand erect, facing downrange, with arms hanging naturally by the sides. A competitor who attempts or completes a course of fire where an incorrect start position was used must be required by a Range Official to reshoot the course of fire. “Arms hanging naturally by sides” is illustrated in Appendix E3.

When the WSB is not specific - the rule book is...

[Skydiver]

if the WSB says "gun laying flat and unsupported on the table" and the gun has "wings" like in http://www.cedhk.com...Aero-Wings.html or http://www.cedhk.com...-Jet-Wings.html is the gun in compliance with the WSB when it set down leaning on the wings? If so, if the gun has foldable wings extended like http://www.cedhk.com...-Jet-Wings.html is the gun in compliance with the WSB?

[Pat Miles]

Troy,

As far as start position, why is the default position standing upright with hands naturally at your sides. If that is what the designer wanted then shouldn't that be stipulated in the WSB? I am asking this out of curiosity. If the position of the gun should be spelled out why not the shooter start position?

CYa,

Pat

Because the rule book states:

8.2.2 The competitor assumes the start position as specified in the written stage briefing. Unless otherwise specified, the competitor must stand erect, facing downrange, with arms hanging naturally by the sides. A competitor who attempts or completes a course of fire where an incorrect start position was used must be required by a Range Official to reshoot the course of fire. “Arms hanging naturally by sides” is illustrated in Appendix E3.

When the WSB is not specific - the rule book is...

What's the sense of me being stupid if I can't show it once in a while! I missed that completely in the rule book. Thanks for the schooling.

CYa,

Pat

[mactiger]

if the WSB says "gun laying flat and unsupported on the table" and the gun has "wings" like in http://www.cedhk.com...Aero-Wings.html or http://www.cedhk.com...-Jet-Wings.html is the gun in compliance with the WSB when it set down leaning on the wings? If so, if the gun has foldable wings extended like http://www.cedhk.com...-Jet-Wings.html is the gun in compliance with the WSB?

If it has something built onto it and it's permanent, more or less, like a slide racker, then the way to ensure that all guns start by being flat on the table is to cut a hole in the table where the slide racker will go. Make the prop solve the problem by using the hole and a marked area where the gun will be positioned. . Extendable wings, IMO, could not be used for a "flat" start, since they can be moved in or out as desired. Also, "flat and unpropped" is a better way to describe what you want if you want the gun to be flat on it's side.

Troy

[coldchar]

I have learned, designing stages requires a sense of humor and humility.

Jim

[Schutzenmeister]

I have learned, designing stages requires a sense of humor and humility.

Jim

And THICK skin!