Palm scoring discussion

[moverfive]

Moverfive-

So what you are saying is that you use a paper scoresheet AND Palm scoring? This is a technological advancement? Am I missing something?

No, we only score on the Palm......the paper sheet is just to provide a summary from the Palm for the shooter and to provide a record in case of a catastrophic failure of a Palm.

[BayouSlide]

So, while the match staff in the stat shack may think the system worked pretty well, a large number of ROs hate the things, and a large number of the shooters in the match are in that boat with the ROs. I didn't hear a single person utter anything similar to "gee, I'm glad we're using these palms for scoring"... I

Then you must not have heard me: I was the CRO on Stage 4 that would explain to anyone who would listen that I LOVED the Palms from the moment I figured out how to comfortably work with them...Now I'll take two for any stage I work, please

I have worked with Palm scoring for over a year at a Louisiana section club, at Area 4 and the Gator Classic in 2009 and now at Double Tap. I've worked with them in the rain, and now the snow, as scoring RO, RO or CRO, and they are superior IMO to paper in almost every way. I do hear a little griping from ROs about the Palms, but on our local level where I am most familiar, the only people who really hate them are those who are either unfamiliar with them or afraid of them. Your experience in this regard may vary from mine, of course.

At our local club, we beam from the stage Palm to a transfer Palm. When using printers, sure I'd like faster printing (or two Palms per stage, which frees up one Palm for scoring while another is used to complete printing for the prior run)...and screens with less glare in that evil early morning sunrise backlighting in Texas

Curtis

Edited: 'cause I hate typos!

Edited March 23, 2010 by BayouSlide

[Jay870]

09' Area 5 was my first exposure to Palm scoring. We did Palm scoring with the hand written paper receipt. I thought it was pretty smooth, at least on our stage.

One big factor was that each stage had a dedicated Palm score keeper. The guy assigned to our stage was really good with it and kept the stage running well. The only notable delay that I can think of was an instance where a shooter switched squads... it took maybe 5-10 minutes to figure out how to move his shooter record to the correct squad. Our battery nearly choked at the end of the last day but it held out... I honestly don't know if we could have run another shooter.

I for one did not like the skinny paper receipts. While they were an efficient use of paper, they were kind of a hassle to use. Not much real-estate for the RO to write on, too easy to rip, and a hassle to keep organized in the range bag as a shooter. Would definitely like to see the normal half-sheet of paper size used in the future.

I think until the system becomes more widespread at the local level there will continue to be struggles using it at big matches.

Since Palm scoring seems to be becoming more and more prevalent at big matches, maybe NROI should consider adding a "Palm Scoring" training module onto the Level 1 course?

[CocoBolo]

As noted in my previous post I am pro Palm scoring. There are a lot of complaints about the time it takes to print. Well putting this in perspecive it takes less time to print than it does to verify the manual sheet and talley the hits. So the printing time is a wash. Also once the print it transmitted the RO can move on to the next shooter on the palm rather than watch the paper climb out of the printer.

There seems to be a lack of defined procedures for what to do when things go wrong. There is no need to hold up shooters if the printer farts and falls, move on to the next shooter call in on the radio for another printer, when it arrives print the scores you need to print. Palm takes a dirtknap you should have a few manual score sheets on the stage and continue using them, once again radio for a replacement, and keep the shooters moving.

The palms have NV Ram, short of being struck by lightning or run over by a truck the scores are secure. Paper score sheets are not nearly as secure, and in a 30 mph wind it is likely your score could have been blown away. In the rain if you can write it tears the sheet and smears etc, score sheets get lost, shooters don't put stage number or their name on them etc, very weak system.

There is better technology out there but it is costprohibitive. Palms have been around a long time they are inexpensive.

[wgnoyes]

What we really need is a new version of EzWinScore that is easier to load..

"Easier to load"? I don't understand.

[Jim Norman]

Simple.

Registration is painstaking.

New shooters require that we open an new screen, entering the division and class requires a different screen if you want it to be there the next time around. One should be able to simply start typing the name and have the form start to fill. One should not have to click through the alphabet to load shooters into the program.

Jim

[wgnoyes]

Simple.

Registration is painstaking...

We've had this discussion before.

[Nik Habicht]

Simple.

Registration is painstaking...

We've had this discussion before.

And a year later we're still in the same place....

It's 2010. It's time for EZW to act like it. It would be nice if USPSA would put this on the front burner......

[mlmiller1]

The palms have NV Ram, short of being struck by lightning or run over by a truck the scores are secure. Paper score sheets are not nearly as secure, and in a 30 mph wind it is likely your score could have been blown away. In the rain if you can write it tears the sheet and smears etc, score sheets get lost, shooters don't put stage number or their name on them etc, very weak system.

I'm sure it had to be operator error but there were a number of R.O.s that didn't get scores for 7 out of the 12 stages they shot on Thursday. They were not given paper copies either so they were just out of luck. One of the R.O.s didn't get a score for a single stage out of the 12 that he shot. After reshooting several of the stages Thursday due to mechanical errors, he didn't have enough ammo to reshoot the entire match Sunday afternoon. No one let them know for sure that the scores were "lost" & could NOT be found until Sunday, by the way. Then one of the officials said this to him "well, it wasn't like you expected to win, anyway"???????. Needless to say, that R.O. will not be back to help at this match, for sure. It was his first ever major match to attend & his first ever time to help R.O. Hopefully it won't also be his last major to shoot. I would say it is a safe bet he doesn't care for Palm scoring at all!

MLM

Edited to say that Mr Neel had no responsibility for what happened to the R.O. He wasn't there & had nothing to do with it at all.

Edited March 25, 2010 by mlmiller1

[lneel]

The palms have NV Ram, short of being struck by lightning or run over by a truck the scores are secure. Paper score sheets are not nearly as secure, and in a 30 mph wind it is likely your score could have been blown away. In the rain if you can write it tears the sheet and smears etc, score sheets get lost, shooters don't put stage number or their name on them etc, very weak system.

I'm sure it had to be operator error but there were a number of R.O.s that didn't get scores for 7 out of the 12 stages they shot on Thursday. They were not given paper copies either so they were just out of luck. One of the R.O.s didn't get a score for a single stage out of the 12 that he shot. After reshooting several of the stages Thursday due to mechanical errors, he didn't have enough ammo to reshoot the entire match Sunday afternoon. No one let them know for sure that the scores were "lost" & could NOT be found until Sunday, by the way. Then one of the officials said this to him "well, it wasn't like you expected to win, anyway"???????. Needless to say, that R.O. will not be back to help at this match, for sure. It was his first ever major match to attend & his first ever time to help R.O. Hopefully it won't also be his last major to shoot. I would say it is a safe bet he doesn't care for Palm scoring at all!

MLM

The lost scores were not a fault of the Palm or the Stagescore software.....multiple processes were unfortunately missed and resulted in lost data. It is/was a training issue and as I could not be there Thursday I could not provide such prior to the RO shoot.

Lee

[geezer-lock]

Lee,

Is it possible to use a universal port/printer cable on some models of Palm? Seems to me like Glock used this method for a few years where the operator carried the printer on the belt, connected to the PDA. Other versions of the Palm OS have support for Bluetooth, does this application run on those?

I downloaded the demo and worked with that for a while today and it seems fairly intuitive. Being a tech guy, I didn't look at the instructions but I figured out how to correct a mis-applied target count and such. I am going to download the trial application this evening at home and see what works on the wife's Palm.

I like a good technical solution(I carry a Dell Axim with all the rule books loaded in it)and I think that the StageScore app is good for USPSA. I have attended four matches where it was used to good effect but the print out(or some type of paper copy) has to happen for folks to feel confident. Bullet proofing the save, store and print functions would be time well spent.

David C

[lneel]

Lee,

Is it possible to use a universal port/printer cable on some models of Palm? Seems to me like Glock used this method for a few years where the operator carried the printer on the belt, connected to the PDA. Other versions of the Palm OS have support for Bluetooth, does this application run on those?

I downloaded the demo and worked with that for a while today and it seems fairly intuitive. Being a tech guy, I didn't look at the instructions but I figured out how to correct a mis-applied target count and such. I am going to download the trial application this evening at home and see what works on the wife's Palm.

I like a good technical solution(I carry a Dell Axim with all the rule books loaded in it)and I think that the StageScore app is good for USPSA. I have attended four matches where it was used to good effect but the print out(or some type of paper copy) has to happen for folks to feel confident. Bullet proofing the save, store and print functions would be time well spent.

David C

The cable option would work IF there were portable printers readily available and IF it wasn't necessary to have external battery packs attached for all day use. A bluetooth solution seems to be most probably to speed printing. I am actually working that aspect right now. The issue still is the availability of affordable Bluetooth capacle printers and Palm's with Bluetooth. Most of mine are Tungsten T2's and do have it but several I own do not.

[geezer-lock]

Lee,

Is it possible to use a universal port/printer cable on some models of Palm? Seems to me like Glock used this method for a few years where the operator carried the printer on the belt, connected to the PDA. Other versions of the Palm OS have support for Bluetooth, does this application run on those?

I downloaded the demo and worked with that for a while today and it seems fairly intuitive. Being a tech guy, I didn't look at the instructions but I figured out how to correct a mis-applied target count and such. I am going to download the trial application this evening at home and see what works on the wife's Palm.

I like a good technical solution(I carry a Dell Axim with all the rule books loaded in it)and I think that the StageScore app is good for USPSA. I have attended four matches where it was used to good effect but the print out(or some type of paper copy) has to happen for folks to feel confident. Bullet proofing the save, store and print functions would be time well spent.

David C

The cable option would work IF there were portable printers readily available and IF it wasn't necessary to have external battery packs attached for all day use. A bluetooth solution seems to be most probably to speed printing. I am actually working that aspect right now. The issue still is the availability of affordable Bluetooth capacle printers and Palm's with Bluetooth. Most of mine are Tungsten T2's and do have it but several I own do not.

I think I heard Robert say that there will be electric in all the bays next year. That would make a dock/cable solution easier, at least at DTR, and also would make "two Palms in every bay" a cost effective answer. My money is on Bluetooth for most applications anywhere you have to run battery.

David C

[wgnoyes]

Simple.

Registration is painstaking...

We've had this discussion before.

And a year later we're still in the same place....

It's 2010. It's time for EZW to act like it. It would be nice if USPSA would put this on the front burner......

Honestly, there are other more important things on the front burner real close to being released to manufacturing that are more than simply nice to have.

Hint: I scored a USPSA Multigun match a couple of weekends ago with a release candidate of 4.0 that does away with that manual San Angelo nonsense. You register people and specify their different powerfactors for the various guns. You key in scores for rifle, pistol, and/or shotgun on one window, and the system knows which C's and D's are major and which ones aren't. No more specifying number of non a-zone hits in the additional penalties box stuff.

I think shooter registration as it is works fine, and as shown in the link above only takes around 10 seconds per competitor, and what Jim keeps asking for is considered an enhancement, and it would be nice, but is not essential to run the system. The current registration process just isn't that inconvenient, in my opinion. It's certainly not what I would call "painstaking".

On the other hand, we've been waiting for Multigun support for half a decade now, and we're finally going to get it. So, take your pick. A nice to have functional enhancement in the registration process, or a long-over stake through the heart of San Angelo? I'll take the latter every time.

Oh, and I found in the 4.0 that I've seen and tested that when you update masternames.db, if your member number prefix has changed from "A" to "TY" for instance, he sees it and makes the change on your system now.

When is it coming out? I hope real soon. Roger has already talked about it in Front Sight.

And then I'll wager a tray of primers they'll be turning their attention to Steel Challenge.

[sidnal]

The palm scoring works great and it helps the stats people imensely but the IR technology for the printers slows the match down too much. A4 had a good solution by having 2 palms on each stage. One was printing while the other was running the next shooters. This is great but it takes 1 extra stats person on each stage. In our matches it's always difficult enough just to get 2 ROs on a stage, even less a third.

At that Gator match they used the Palm and just wrote the scores on a slip of paper. It didn't slow the match down when it was organized correctly. This works worked much better.

Palms are great. Chuck the printers until the technology gets better.

For Space City Challenge 2009 we used the bar code label system and it made the stats job MUCH easier. We haven't switched to Palms yet so we will use the bar codes again. Hopefully we'll switch to Palm scoring before SCC2011!

Edited March 27, 2010 by sidnal

[mlmiller1]

The palm scoring works great and it helps the stats people imensely but the IR technology for the printers slows the match down too much. A4 had a good solution by having 2 palms on each stage. One was printing while the other was running the next shooters. This is great but it takes 1 extra stats person on each stage. In our matches it's always difficult enough just to get 2 ROs on a stage, even less a third.

At many matches, not all, it seems you could station a stats person just outside of two adjoining bays & have the scorekeeper "drop off" the shooter & the palm to this person for printing. I believe he could handle two stages of printing alternating back & forth at one time. This could reduce the number of officials needed. This would be very doable at ranges like the Dbl Tap where all the bays are in a line & would not require as many extra folks as it would to have one extra in each bay just to do printing. Just a thought.

MLM

[Kevin Spencer]

Palm's are old technology. We need to start looking forward to the future, so that we are not always behind. My thought is we need the scoring software built into a timer. The scores would be kept in the memory of the timer, until the end of the day and then docked into a computer to download all the data. In addition, the timer would have a USB port, so a jump drive could be used to keep the scores for each squads stage. The jump drives could be moved back and forth between the stages and the stats shack. The software could be configured so that is non editable after being entered.

Kevin