Calling "finger" during reload/malfxn clear

[ben b.]

Gents, I am not yet a certified RO or SO. I shoot USPSA, IDPA, and steel, with equal love and attendance at each. I am waiting for the next RO/SO course to come up, so that I can get the training/certification. I am now a new MD for USPSA matches at my local club.

I RO/SO as needed on squads at a variety of club matches rather often, in the usual way. At this point, I do as fine a job as anyone in attending to muzzle, handling, etc. I admit that I am weak on knowing and owning the rules.

Question: I have called "finger" to shooters who either have or appear to have a finger inside the trigger guard area during a reload, while moving between arrays, or while clearing a malfunction. This has occurred a few times of late at USPSA matches, mostly to new shooters but not always. I have received some puzzled/disgruntled looks. In IDPA, "Finger" can be called to remind the shooter, without necessitating a DQ. In USPSA, it appears to be a DQ with no room for instruction (10.5.8, .9, .10).

10.5.8 Failure to keep the finger outside the trigger guard while clearing a

malfunction where the competitor clearly moves the handgun away

from aiming at targets.

10.5.9 Failure to keep the finger outside the trigger guard during loading,

reloading, or unloading. Exception: while complying with the “Make

Ready” command to lower the hammer of a gun without a decocking

lever, or while initially loading a revolver with a spurless hammer.

USPSA Handgun Rules, January 2008 Edition • 47

10.5.10 Failure to keep the finger outside

Is the practice in USPSA to DQ for finger, and no room for calling "finger" as a safety warning? I have yet to see anyone besides me do this at an USPSA match, tho I have seen and administered DQs for 180 violations.

8.6.1 No assistance of any kind can be given to a competitor during a course

of fire, except that any Range Officer assigned to a stage may issue

safety warnings to a competitor at any time. Such warnings will not be

grounds for the competitor to be awarded a reshoot.

Thanks for any help on this.

Ben

[twodownzero]

Finger is a legitimate safety call if you're not sure that you see a violation. If you see a violation, the correct command is "stop," followed by (well, you know what comes next).

I've never seen someone DQed for this, but I would issue a DQ if I was sure of what I saw.

I do know a somewhat famous Range Master Instructor who has told me that he issued a "finger" warning to a guy, and then found out later that the guy actually was missing some of his index finger and used his middle finger for a trigger finger (and so the competitor informed the RO later that it was actually "impossible" for him to have had his index finger on the trigger...because it wouldn't reach at all).

Generally, though, if you're sure that you see a finger in the trigger guard during a time where it should not be, that's a DQ, not a warning.

Edited March 19, 2010 by twodownzero

[Carmoney]

In my opinion, like the word "muzzle," the word "finger" should not be barked at a shooter in the middle of shooting a stage at a USPSA or IPSC match. If the finger is truly in the trigger guard during a reload or while the shooter is moving and not engaging targets, that is a genuine safety violation and the DQ is fully warranted. If the RO is not sure of the violation, he/she should keep quiet.

[twodownzero]

In my opinion, like the word "muzzle," the word "finger" should not be barked at a shooter in the middle of shooting a stage at a USPSA or IPSC match. If the finger is truly in the trigger guard during a reload or while the shooter is moving and not engaging targets, that is a genuine safety violation and the DQ is fully warranted. If the RO is not sure of the violation, he/she should keep quiet.

I think you're mostly right. I've yet to see any instance where yelling "muzzle" or "finger" prevented a DQ.

[Nik Habicht]

Ben,

Have a look at 8.6.1:

8.6 Assistance or Interference

8.6.1 No assistance of any kind can be given to a competitor during a course of fire, except that any Range Officer assigned to a stage may issue safety warnings to a competitor at any time. Such warnings will not be grounds for the competitor to be awarded a reshoot.

That covers you for the legality of being able to give warnings. Generally, I agree with Carmoney, that warnings may be counterproductive -- the inexperienced shooter may turn toward you and ask for clarification, which can result in a change in muzzle direction. The experienced competitor may be using every inch of the 180 degree arc allowed them.

That said -- I tend to make exceptions for new competitors. They often receive earlier warnings and in some cases coaching, as deemed appropriate. In an ideal world, we'd like to be able to mentor them through their first match or two safely.

Now, if I'm certain that a competitor broke either rule, then I don't hesitate to stop the shooter and issue the DQ....

The longer I do it, the more convinced I become that there's an art to ROing safely, equitably and efficiently....

[DoubleDelta]

With a new shooter I try to remind them before they start to clear a malfunction. I try to stress finger and 180 when I give a new shooter a saftey breif.

[Flexmoney]

As MD, at your shooter's meeting before the match, make it a point to mentioned that finger in the trigger is a DQ.

(As a shooter) I like to give folks a positive picture of the behavior that we are looking for. So, I tell them to pretend that they have rubbed Viagra on that finger. It should be clearly out of the trigger guard and straight and stiff. Even the guys/gals with bad memories will know, and picture, what we are talking about when we put it that way.

[larry cazes]

Finger is a legitimate safety call if you're not sure that you see a violation. If you see a violation, the correct command is "stop," followed by (well, you know what comes next).

If your not sure that you see a violation, there is zero reason to say anything to the shooter during the course of fire. Period.

[sidnal]

...Viagra on that finger. It should be clearly out of the trigger guard and straight and stiff....

Viagra Finger...good analogy Flex!

[ben b.]

Thank you for all replies.

I conclude that rule 8.6.1 permits an RO to call "Finger" in USPSA as a safety warning, and 10.5.8-.10 state that a finger in the trigger guard at reload, malfxn clearance, or while moving between arrays is a DQ. The remainder appears to be personal preference and/or customary practice.

The casethat prompted this occurred with an 11 y.o. kid with an Open gun that was feed jamming. He had his finger inside the trigger guard while pulling at the slide racker, I could not see if his finger was on the trigger. I called finger, twice. He moved his finger outside the trigger guard. I did not DQ him. After U&SC, I told him to keep his finger outside the trigger guard while reloading or fixing the gun. End story. It appears that I "should" have DQ'd him, but 8.6.1 gives me enough wiggle room to make the call I did.

At a guess, his dad might not have approved of the teaching by Viagra example, but I admittedly didn't try that...

I also conclude that USPSA culture, but not rulebook, discourages an RO from saying anything other than "Stop" during the run. I don't see anything in the rules that explicitly authorizes certain words, or describes if the RO should say anything other than "Stop" during the run.

Thanks for followup discussion,

Ben

[Nik Habicht]

Finger is a legitimate safety call if you're not sure that you see a violation. If you see a violation, the correct command is "stop," followed by (well, you know what comes next).

If your not sure that you see a violation, there is zero reason to say anything to the shooter during the course of fire. Period.

I don't agree that it's that black and white.....

[lugnut]

Honestly... I see this "finger" thing happening quite a bit. I think ROs that yell "finger" are basically saying- I saw your finger inside the trigger guard but you are getting a free pass this time. I see much more leniency with the finger DQ than the 180 DQ for sure. Just my observations.

[Pezco]

I'm not an RO and have only been shooting USPSA for a year. My first couple of matches I had a couple of RO's yell finger. My 3 match I had and AD (down range) loading a mag because of that "soft finger". I can see it both ways, but think the best bet is to reinforce the safety rules with new shooters prior to shooting and call the game as it happens for consistency. Since that DQ & viagra no more soft finger!

[ben b.]

Honestly... I see this "finger" thing happening quite a bit. I think ROs that yell "finger" are basically saying- I saw your finger inside the trigger guard but you are getting a free pass this time. I see much more leniency with the finger DQ than the 180 DQ for sure. Just my observations.

I have made the same observation. It is part of my puzzlement. Participting in IDPA made me especially aware of the finger issue, and I've seen it in USPSA often enough to bring it to mind, but no one seems to care. It makes me wonder if people are mostly watching muzzle and not concerned about the trigger finger from "culture" reasons. That is part of my underlying question, I guess.

[BSeevers]

When you RO a green novice shooter they sometimes have no idea what they are doing and its a way to push the newbie to safety. I call trigger/finger in that case. I had a guy last year say "Are you sure my finger was in the trigger guard?" He asked me twice cause he said he didn't remember it. Of course he didn't remember, its VERY overwhelming your first time shooting USPSA.

Do you remember what it was like?

I like humor so I said, hmm Let me Think, yes your finger was in the trigger.

[George Jones]

The casethat prompted this occurred with an 11 y.o. kid with an Open gun that was feed jamming. He had his finger inside the trigger guard while pulling at the slide racker, I could not see if his finger was on the trigger. I called finger, twice. He moved his finger outside the trigger guard. I did not DQ him. After U&SC, I told him to keep his finger outside the trigger guard while reloading or fixing the gun. End story. It appears that I "should" have DQ'd him, but 8.6.1 gives me enough wiggle room to make the call I did.

Well, not really. Here's the difference.... If you clearly see the finger in the trigger guard (it doesn't matter if it's on the trigger or not), then the DQ applies and "Stop!" should be your next range command.

The 8.6.1 warnings are allowed for those cases when you "think" the finger may be in the trigger guard. As others have said, not all shooters welcome such warnings. Most experienced shooters consider them to be an unnecessary distraction. However, there are a number of instances where such warnings are not only appropriate, but actually recommended. That is in the case of new shooters - but it is up to you or the MD to assure in advance that these new shooters are aware of the potential warnings (typically "finger" and "muzzle") so that they are not caught by surprise and end up doing something more "dramatic".

Now get yourself to the next available RO course so that you can "own" that rulebook.

Edited March 20, 2010 by George Jones

[larry cazes]

Honestly... I see this "finger" thing happening quite a bit. I think ROs that yell "finger" are basically saying- I saw your finger inside the trigger guard but you are getting a free pass this time. I see much more leniency with the finger DQ than the 180 DQ for sure. Just my observations.

I have made the same observation. It is part of my puzzlement. Participting in IDPA made me especially aware of the finger issue, and I've seen it in USPSA often enough to bring it to mind, but no one seems to care. It makes me wonder if people are mostly watching muzzle and not concerned about the trigger finger from "culture" reasons. That is part of my underlying question, I guess.

Safety is absolute. Only culture of "the free pass" exists here where some of us wrongly suggest that it is OK to be sure someone has broken a safety rule and should be given only a warning. I am baffled every time this subject rears it's ugly head here.

[Schutzenmeister]

In my opinion, like the word "muzzle," the word "finger" should not be barked at a shooter in the middle of shooting a stage at a USPSA or IPSC match. If the finger is truly in the trigger guard during a reload or while the shooter is moving and not engaging targets, that is a genuine safety violation and the DQ is fully warranted. If the RO is not sure of the violation, he/she should keep quiet.

I disagree ... +1 on George's comments.

I think you're mostly right. I've yet to see any instance where yelling "muzzle" or "finger" prevented a DQ.

I have ...

[G-ManBart]

I truly have no desire to send anybody home, but if their finger is so close to the trigger/trigger guard that I can't really tell one way or the other, it's too damn close. A couple of DQ's might make them fix the problem...and it is a problem because sooner or later it's going to catch up with them.

Some folks may have not worked through it completely, but imagine you're doing a reload or moving with your finger "just barely" in the trigger guard, or really, really close to it, when you slip or catch your foot on something and your whole body lurches forward....BANG...and a hole in something you didn't intend. I don't like being a hard ass, but this is one of those things where people should go well out of their way to make it obvious that their finger is clear of the trigger guard. Yes, a reminder to a newbie is reasonable, but that's about as far as it should go. R,

[wide45]

I don't agree.

Nobody gets a DQ unless I'm very sure they committed the deed.

Looks like finger might be in, but you can't tell for sure? Yell "FINGER!" Make it a learning moment. Follow up with a few polite words after "Range is Clear".

[G-ManBart]

I don't agree.

Nobody gets a DQ unless I'm very sure they committed the deed.

Looks like finger might be in, but you can't tell for sure? Yell "FINGER!" Make it a learning moment. Follow up with a few polite words after "Range is Clear".

Hey, if you're willing to accept a lower standard of safety, that's fine for you, but that's not an area I'm willing to settle for less and I don't think it's a responsible attitude for an RO to have. If you miss the call because their finger was .001" outside the TG, and you DQ them, it's really not a tragic event. If you let them go and and five seconds later they stumble and the gun goes bang all sorts of things can happen, none of them good....injury, death, club closed because of a lawsuit, who knows.

You can disagree all you want, but a finger that's right on the edge is too close to be really safe. One little hiccup, and the gun goes bang when you don't want it to. If we really want a safe sport, and who doesn't?, fingers need to be clearly out of the TG when moving or reloading. It's like anything else we do, it needs to be practiced. If people aren't willing to practice it, they aren't willing to be a safe competitor and they have no business at a match.

Yelling "finger" is pointless. They go "oh yeah, yeah, right" and ten seconds later they've forgotten it....I've seen that happen many times. There was one guy at a club I used to shoot at who the ROs were always "reminding" and yelling "finger" to him. Yeah, one day on a table start the gun didn't get three inches off the table when it went bang....a bad habit that yelling "finger" and reminders after a stage, time after time, never cured.

I'm not saying to DQ someone just because you can't quite see the TG and finger clearly. I'm saying when their finger is clearly visible, you have a good view, and you simply think "is their finger in the TG?". When that happens I'd be willing to bet that most of the time it really is in the TG and people just don't want to be an ass and DQ someone without proof beyond a reasonable doubt....people are getting a pass when they shouldn't be.

If people who RO frequently take a hard look at what they've done in the past, they KNOW they've either said "trigger" or later warned someone that they knew really should have been DQ'd....they stopped to think "is it in the TG?" and before they could decide, the shooter had moved on, so they didn't do anything about it. I don't believe there's an RO out there (other than a total newbie) who hasn't finished running a shooter knowing that they should have DQ'd them...it happens, and I think it's over the "finger" thing more than anything else. R,

Edited March 20, 2010 by G-ManBart

[JThompson]

The casethat prompted this occurred with an 11 y.o. kid with an Open gun that was feed jamming. He had his finger inside the trigger guard while pulling at the slide racker, I could not see if his finger was on the trigger. I called finger, twice. He moved his finger outside the trigger guard. I did not DQ him. After U&SC, I told him to keep his finger outside the trigger guard while reloading or fixing the gun. End story. It appears that I "should" have DQ'd him, but 8.6.1 gives me enough wiggle room to make the call I did.

Well, not really. Here's the difference.... If you clearly see the finger in the trigger guard (it doesn't matter if it's on the trigger or not), then the DQ applies and "Stop!" should be your next range command.

The 8.6.1 warnings are allowed for those cases when you "think" the finger may be in the trigger guard. As others have said, not all shooters welcome such warnings. Most experienced shooters consider them to be an unnecessary distraction. However, there are a number of instances where such warnings are not only appropriate, but actually recommended. That is in the case of new shooters - but it is up to you or the MD to assure in advance that these new shooters are aware of the potential warnings (typically "finger" and "muzzle") so that they are not caught by surprise and end up doing something more "dramatic".

Now get yourself to the next available RO course so that you can "own" that rulebook.

I agree with George here...

New shooters are like puppies, you see them start to squat, you don't wait until they've made a mess on the floor to act. Once they do they are in trouble and haven't learned as much as they could have if you prevented the accident and got them outside. By taking them outside to do the business you train them that that's the place for doing their business. Now if I corrected after the fact they would not have learned as much and I have sheit on my floor.

Edited March 20, 2010 by JThompson

[aztecdriver]

Here's a +1 for George. I think that the assistance we lend to the new people entering our sport is paramount. Experienced shooters - if it's in the guard and I can "DEFINITIVELY" call it, they're getting stopped. Do they get warned if I think they are close - no. New shooters on the other hand - if I can definitively call it, they're STILL getting stopped, after all, it's a safety infraction. If they're close or I think they are going to get close - they get a warning. Before they step to the line, I tell them.. "sometimes this thing has some tricky situations --- you might hear me warn you about your finger or your muzzle direction - just listen and correct it and if you hear stop... just stop and stand still" Some of these newer (after all, i'm still new i think) people have sympathy movements of their finger (it balls up as they death grip the thing doing a reload), and you can't tell where their finger tip is... in that case - I give a "finger" or "watch the finger".

Safety is safety and DQ's do teach. We have the warning capability that does allow us the capacity to help someone who may not know or haven't had the experience, gain some of it rather than just showing up shooting 2 rounds, get DQ'd and going home. We can't DQ someone because they are close to breaking a safety rule - they must break it.

Edited March 20, 2010 by aztecdriver

[G-ManBart]

Some of these newer (after all, i'm still new i think) people have sympathy movements of their finger (it balls up as they death grip the thing doing a reload), and you can't tell where their finger tip is Which almost always means it's in the trigger guard. If you can't see the tip of the finger, why is that?....cause it's tucked in there where you can't see it. That's what happens when someone balls up their hand, the fingers curl and we know where the trigger finger is when it's curled.

Safety is safety and DQ's do teach. We have the warning capability that does allow us the capacity to help someone who may not know or haven't had the experience, gain some of it rather than just showing up shooting 2 rounds, get DQ'd and going home. That would be a lot better, in the long run, than having them repeatedly get too close to the line and then go over it when something unusual happens...then they say "that's never happened before"...yeah, because nobody stopped you and forced you to learn the right way from the start. We can't DQ someone because they are close to breaking a safety rule - they must break it. fingers and 180* violations are judgement calls...it's not really a black and white thing. What looks close to the 180* to me might be just over to the RO...he/she gets final say on that...even if they're "wrong" and the shooter didn't really break the 180*. This is why we don't allow things like video evidence. If the RO thinks, not knows (because that really isn't possible in real time), you broke a safety rule, they're supposed to call it.

Edited March 20, 2010 by G-ManBart

[George Jones]

Your observations not withstanding.....

ROs are not expected to make a DQ call unless they are certain that the violation occured.

The reason for that is that the RO's call is taken as fact and the shooter cannot prove the infraction did not occur because there is no residual evidence after the event.

The fact that is finger is not seen as "out" by the RO does not particularly mean that it is "in". You call what you see, not what you suspect or deduce.