.45acp crimp confusion

[njl]

I'm using an RL550B, Dillon dies, Dillon case gage, PD 230gr FMJ and WCC Match brass from TJConevera. The brass thickness at the mouth is 0.011-0.012. The bullets are 0.451.

My Speer manual says the loaded cartridge mouth should measure 0.4730. That seems kind of optimistic. Assuming I'm just crimping to remove the flare done by the powder funnel, 0.451 + 0.0115*2 = 0.474.

I made a few dummy rounds while setting things up, and found that I had to crimp down to 0.471 to even get close to the rounds dropping into the case gage. Out of 4 dummies, one gages without trouble. One goes in, but has to be pushed hard to get it out. Two won't go all the way in...most of the rim of the case stays outside the gage.

The only .45acp factory ammo I have is Blazer aluminum. I grabbed a box of it, and the first bullet I grabbed out of the box dropped into the gage. I spent some more time trying to figure out what I was doing wrong. I took out my Springfield 1911 and Glock 21. I fed a few of the dummies through the 1911 without issue. Then I took out the barrels from each gun and found my dummies would drop right in (and shake around) in the chambers. Then I thought to gage a few more Blazer and the next half dozen Blazers I tried also wouldn't go all the way into the gage.

Conclusion...I need to contact Dillon and see about getting this gage replaced as it seems to be much tighter than spec.

Should I be crimping any tighter than the 0.474" calculated above based on bullet diameter and brass thickness?

Edited March 12, 2010 by njl

[ramirezerwin]

perhaps the gauge is to blame. try other gauges or its better to use your own barrel as a gauge.

[dirty whiteboy]

I always pull a few bullets to look at the impression made by the case mouth.

[njl]

Something else that just occurred to me...I should probably take some brake cleaner and a barrel brush and make sure there's no oil/grease or other crap inside the gage.

[NickJ]

45's need to be .469/.470 .

[addicted]

I was told by my local dillon dealer, that the gauge was cut tight on purpose. if the rounds fit in the gauge, even with a little pressure, it will fit in a gun's chamber.

Edited March 12, 2010 by addicted

[Singlestack]

Measure the bullet. Measure the thickness of the brass and multiply it 2. Add it all up and thats what your finished round should measure.

[njl]

45's need to be .469/.470 .

That would either mean really crimping into the bullet or the brass can only be 0.009" thick at the mouth.

The fact that most of the Blazer wouldn't go all the way into the gage and that all the rounds drop into both barrels with enough room to spare that there's a little wiggle room for the round in the chamber suggests to me that the gage is too tight (either not bored out enough or maybe it left the factory with some preservative oil/grease that needs to be cleaned out.

[Jan R.]

I've found the rounds to be a little tight in the dillon gauge. They should go in without a hammer though!!!:-))) (That's a joke...don't use a hammer)

You need a little more crimp.

Jan

[dillon]

It is not uncommon for fired cases to not drop flush into the gage. Distortions to the case rim from extraction and ejection can distort the rim to a point where it prevents the cartridge from fully entering the gage, without preventing the round from freely chambering in your barrel. To test this, reverse the round, see if the case rim fully enters the gage. If it cannot, then rim distortion is the cause. If the cartridge properly enters the gage up to the rim, then it will chamber properly.

[njl]

It is not uncommon for fired cases to not drop flush into the gage. Distortions to the case rim from extraction and ejection can distort the rim to a point where it prevents the cartridge from fully entering the gage, without preventing the round from freely chambering in your barrel. To test this, reverse the round, see if the case rim fully enters the gage. If it cannot, then rim distortion is the cause. If the cartridge properly enters the gage up to the rim, then it will chamber properly.

What about the fact that most of the unfired Blazer rounds won't go all the way into the gage?

With my 9mm Dillon gage, the only rounds I've made/seen that didn't gage also were either very tight fits or wouldn't fully chamber in my Glocks.

[LPatterson]

As your local Dillon dealer said case gauges are made slightly undersize to ensure that the cartridge will fit in your chamber or any chamber. There is no requirement that you use a case guage if you are willing to take your barrel out every time you reload a new batch of ammo. One advantage of using the barrel is to find out if the cartridge will go in without the bullet hitting the rifling. The 1911 may be a little picky and the Glock will probably gobble anything.

[G-ManBart]

It may not be the crimp that's causing the issue. If the brass is from ammo that was shot in your Glock 21, it's going to have a bit of Glock belly to it. The Dillon resizing die isn't going to remove all of that. One, no die can really get all of it because the shell plate or shell holder prevents the die from getting all the way to the extractor groove. Two, the Dillon dies semm to have a bit more flare to them, at the mouth, to promote smooth operation of the press.

Check the diameter of the loaded rounds just forward of the extractor groove. It should be around .476". If it's much larger, that could be the problem.

You actually want the case gauge to be tighter than your gun chambers. That way you know that if the round fits the gauge, it won't bind up in the chamber. R,

Edited March 12, 2010 by G-ManBart

[ncboiler]

...... One advantage of using the barrel is to find out if the cartridge will go in without the bullet hitting the rifling.

How do you know if it is hitting the rifling?

[njl]

...... One advantage of using the barrel is to find out if the cartridge will go in without the bullet hitting the rifling.

How do you know if it is hitting the rifling?

It won't drop all the way into the chamber...and seating the bullet deeper fixes it.

As for what my brass was previously fired in, I don't know. As mentioned, it's WCC Match brass processed (deprimed, cleaned, and swaged) by TJ Conevera. This is my first attempt at loading it.

[NickJ]

45's need to be .469/.470 .

That would either mean really crimping into the bullet or the brass can only be 0.009" thick at the mouth.

The fact that most of the Blazer wouldn't go all the way into the gage and that all the rounds drop into both barrels with enough room to spare that there's a little wiggle room for the round in the chamber suggests to me that the gage is too tight (either not bored out enough or maybe it left the factory with some preservative oil/grease that needs to be cleaned out.

It's what works.

[Walküre]

45's need to be .469/.470 .

Just checked my latest batch - 0.472" at the mouth. My .45ACP gage is an LE Wilson, and these rounds check out just fine with it.

[NickJ]

I guess the question that needs to be asked of the OP is "do your rounds feed in your pistol"? Regardless of the case gauges..

[Bob DuBois]

Crimp .468 to .472 I try to keep it at .470. Has run well in all the 45's I've had over the years.

[njl]

I guess the question that needs to be asked of the OP is "do your rounds feed in your pistol"? Regardless of the case gauges..

Hand cycling them, yes. I haven't fired any yet. I just loaded up 100 in groups of 20 of varying powder charges.

I scrubbed out the gage with a bore brush, some patches, and alcohol, and now some of my rounds that wouldn't gage do...but there are still some that don't, and most of the Blazer still doesn't. The ones that don't generally get stuck at the rim. Some of these can be pushed all the way in with a little force (and then have to be pushed out), but with some, the rim just won't get into the gage. I'm going to send it back to Dillon and see what they think.

While cleaning things, I decided to clean my 9mm and .45 powder funnels. I don't think I thought to clean the 9mm one before putting it in use a year ago. The .45 one had quite a bit of something (oil, I assume) inside it. An alcohol soaked paper towel rolled up and shoved into it came out nearly black...this [the .45 funnel] was new out of the box (from Dillon). I guess they must coat the dies in rust preventative before packaging them. No wonder my 9mm funnel had a coating of stuck powder all through its inside.

[NickJ]

45's need to be .469/.470 .

Just checked my latest batch - 0.472" at the mouth. My .45ACP gage is an LE Wilson, and these rounds check out just fine with it.

If that's what works for you, then that's what you should be using. Chamber dimensions do differ. You've probably been reloading a lot longer than I have. I can only go by the advice from the smith who built my most recent SS- "Nick, you need to be taper crimping to .469", and the manual I have open on my desk- "Taper crimp to .470" ". It's worked for me for 20 years.

Edited March 14, 2010 by NickJ

[Bob DuBois]

Another tip is to polish the inside of the powder funnel. It will help in a more consistent powder charge. I use Simicrome Polish, it can be purchased at motorcycle shops or Brownells runs about ten bucks a tube. Q-Tips about three or four and a little polish works well. If the rounds won't go all the way in the chamber may be your first stage, overall sizer die is to large or not adjusted. EGW list an undersized sizing die that's one thousands smaller than a standard die. This die has allowed 40 S@W brass thats been shot through a Glock to be used in tight chambered 1911 and 2011 guns.

First stage sizing die may be loose in the press. With the handle all the way down you can use a small strip of paper as a gauge, should have a slight drag between the bottom of the die and the shell plate. Dillon by and far has the best presses, but have better results with Lee Dies and use them in 9mm, 38 Super, 40S$W and 45ACP. Lees first stage sizer is tighter than Dillon and their factory crimp die works great. Midway USA has Lee Dies on sale this month, you might consider giving them a try.

The 550 was a good choice, mine is about twenty five years old and has loaded many thousands of rounds.

[njl]

I sent the gage back to Dillon. They sent me a gage that has a slightly more open mouth. The Blazer ammo that wouldn't go completely into the old gage drops into the new one.

[Phil G]

I always taper crimp to .469/.470 for LSWC bullets. Feeds well and fits easily in my chamber guage with that amount of crimp.

Phil G

[tac_driver]

I have the same Dillon guage and a LE Wilson guage I crimp lead bullets to .468 - .469 and jacketed or plated rounds to .469 - .470 I first check in the Dillon guage and if they don't fit i reverse the round to check the rim, if the round goes past flush i check it in the LE Wilson guage, If it doesn't fit that guage, then i disassemble the round and destroy the case so it can't be used by mistake.

This method has worked for me for many years.