FNH USA Midwest 3-Gun Championships

[tgibson]

Great match!! Mud kicked my ass starting out on stages 8, 9 and 10, but it was still fun. Congrats to Rob and all the division winners.

I have no use for gamers. I will DQ them for unsportsmanlike conduct at any match I put on here in Louisiana/Fort Polk. If you can't run heads up, stay home.

Thanks all!!

Jack

You do realize its a game right???? Good luck filling your match.

Adios,

TG

[bigbrowndog]

my bad!!!!! sorry

Trapr

Edited May 24, 2010 by bigbrowndog

[djeffers]

I was on squad 7 and seen a guy hit 7/7 steel targets with 7 rounds (including the bonus 400 yd target) on stage six. I was wondering if anyone else had done that?

[tgibson]

HEY TRAP!!! That isn't true!!! MGM is all about sponsoring 3 gun events...I just thought that was really funny!!

Adios,

TG

[djeffers]

I want to start off by saying FHN does deserve an "A" for effort. They are really stepping up to the plate and putting this sport on the map.

What was with the FTN penalty? I was charged 5 seconds all day on Friday(not that I missed much). The next day on Stage 2 I was charged 10 sec. for FTN on a paper and 5 seconds for turning a plate side ways. I could of sworn the match director said 5 seconds for FTN in the shooters meeting. The match was fun other than the gray areas and the MUD . I'm not sure why it was crammed into two days. The shooters were getting preety punchy by 6pm on Saturday after 11 hours of being on the range( I won't get into details about that ). No surprise we didn't have more DQs. BTW anybody know how many shooters were DQ'd?

I hope that wasn't the case, I am going to have to look at my score sheets now.

[djeffers]

That 3 gun nation show is going to be very cool! The shoot off is a lot of fun to watch in person. I highly recommend getting out to see one in person. The only thing that would make it better is if the competitors had more time with the FNH guns to get acquainted with them. The rifle in particular seemed to be the make it or break it gun. I heard that all the rifles were zeroed at 100 yards but we all know that everybody mounts a gun and shoots differently. So why not give each of the 8 shooters one each of the 3 guns to go shoot before the match so that it's a fair competition of skills not a competition of which gun fits which shooter the best? I know that would add time to the match and delay the prize table but It would make for better competition and better TV too.

Just my $.04 after seeing the shoot and hearing the competitors comments following the shooting.

I would have to disagree. Isn't it a measure of skill to test all shooters with guns they aren't familiar with?

[Jesse Tischauser]

That 3 gun nation show is going to be very cool! The shoot off is a lot of fun to watch in person. I highly recommend getting out to see one in person. The only thing that would make it better is if the competitors had more time with the FNH guns to get acquainted with them. The rifle in particular seemed to be the make it or break it gun. I heard that all the rifles were zeroed at 100 yards but we all know that everybody mounts a gun and shoots differently. So why not give each of the 8 shooters one each of the 3 guns to go shoot before the match so that it's a fair competition of skills not a competition of which gun fits which shooter the best? I know that would add time to the match and delay the prize table but It would make for better competition and better TV too.

Just my $.04 after seeing the shoot and hearing the competitors comments following the shooting.

I would have to disagree. Isn't it a measure of skill to test all shooters with guns they aren't familiar with?

The point is for FNH and Surefire to sell more SCAR's, FNX9's, SLP's, and Suppressors and Flashlights but the shooting is cool too. My point was that when the shooters picked up a different gun for the 2nd or 3rd round they where hopeing like hell that they had the same gun from the first round because they knew it was shooting high right or low left or whatever. If not they had to shoot the gun 1-3 times to see where is was hitting before they could make the adjustments to their sight picture and start clearing the plate rack. After watching Kurt, Jerry, Rob, Mike, and the guys shoot lights out during the regular match its not as cool and as humbling to see them grab a rifle or pistol that isn't sighted in to their likings and start missing with it. It makes them look more like the rest of us which is not the case. It is also not what people want to watch on TV. They want to see Taran run a plate rack without a miss in 2 seconds because its amazing to the watch since we can't do it ourselves.

I proved all day long I could miss plates on a rack. It wasn't very exciting to watch at all. Heck sometimes it was even painful to watch.

Edited May 24, 2010 by jtischauser

[mike_pinto]

Kelly N, the voice of reason!

I shot them all, but the rules never said you had to. I watched one of the best shooters ever, shoot 6 really fast rounds and take the 30 seconds. If that's the way he wanted to shoot it, and the rules don't say otherwise, go for it. It's not for me, but what the hell.

Cheers brother!

M

Edited May 24, 2010 by mike_pinto

[bigbrowndog]

being unfamiliar with the guns provided only occurs with those shooters who do not shoot those particular guns. As for not being sighted in, as was said earlier, every shooter holds guns differently and so saying that ALL guns are sighted in, is a gross misstatement they are only sighted in for the person that sighted them in, and maybe, maybe!!! close enough for another 50% of the shooters.

Trapr

[TRUBL]

Congrats to the winners and especially Rob for the shootoff win.

As for the "gaming" comments. Match directors, ROs and stage designers need to realize that literally dozens of minds are trying to find clever ways to win. They don't care about the stage designers' feelings. I have had shooters demolish stages of mine in ways I never intended and I say GOOD FOR THEM. It is a freestyle problem solving sport.

Your scoring system and stage design should preclude shooters from merely engaging the long range targets not some vague, completely arbitrary and ever inconsistently enforced "failure to do right" rule. Sounds like some shooters merely read and understood the rule system better than the match staff. Larue, Myst. Mountain, Ft. Benning, Blue Ridg, USPSA and IPSC have all successfully dealt with this issue in their scoring systems and stage design.

As for the gun abandonment rules, you just better known and have prepared for the match that you are attending. This has bit me at DPMS and it was MY fault, not the match staff. Now, I completely unload every gun abandoned at every match.

+1 for Kelly!!! I love to design stages....and REALLY try to make it so you can't game it. AND....if someone does (and I'm on to you, so you won't often)....YOU WIN!!! Ya beat me!! And if I game one of yours...well I win!! (and at my age, I need all the gamin I can get). Not sure who said it....if we didn't keep score no one would come.

Never been bit with the grounded gun thing (knock on wood).....but I make it a habit to drop mag and clear weapon. And with shotty...I know how many rounds I have left (unless I forget, or get flustered, or really, really screw the pooch on that part of the stage).....at that point....survival mode, look good and long to make sure its empty.

Edited May 24, 2010 by TRUBL

[Jadeslade]

I don't like clearing the weapons on the clock. No real good reason for it. I saw one AD because the shooter was speed clearing his pistol to get to the rifle.

It was a great match, but it was like a bad camping trip in the rain and mud.

[Jack T]

Congrats to the winners and especially Rob for the shootoff win.

As for the "gaming" comments. Match directors, ROs and stage designers need to realize that literally dozens of minds are trying to find clever ways to win. They don't care about the stage designers' feelings. I have had shooters demolish stages of mine in ways I never intended and I say GOOD FOR THEM. It is a freestyle problem solving sport.

Your scoring system and stage design should preclude shooters from merely engaging the long range targets not some vague, completely arbitrary and ever inconsistently enforced "failure to do right" rule. Sounds like some shooters merely read and understood the rule system better than the match staff. Larue, Myst. Mountain, Ft. Benning, Blue Ridg, USPSA and IPSC have all successfully dealt with this issue in their scoring systems and stage design.

As for the gun abandonment rules, you just better known and have prepared for the match that you are attending. This has bit me at DPMS and it was MY fault, not the match staff. Now, I completely unload every gun abandoned at every match.

+1.

I apologize for my use of the word "Gamers" in an earlier post. I am referring to situations that may jeopardize the integrity of the match. Freestyle and figuring the fastest way to shoot the course of fire is what it is all about. Life ain't fair but everyone should have the same opportunity in a competition so the winner/fastest time is determined by one's ability with the weapons system, not by "lawyer Speak" or manipulating the rules.

JT

Edited May 25, 2010 by Jack T

[assaulter]

I was on squad 7 and seen a guy hit 7/7 steel targets with 7 rounds (including the bonus 400 yd target) on stage six. I was wondering if anyone else had done that?

It took me nine with only one at the 400. Too bad I totally butchered that stage up to that point.

[-=VILLAMOR=-]

Thanks to all the folks, especially the R.O.'s who made this match happen. Despite the weather and conditions, you all made the best of it. This was our first trip to this match, and we are sure to make the trip again next year.

Thank too to all the folks in my Squad 15. I enjoyed meeting you all and I look forward to shooting with you again.

And to Mr. Patrick Kelley: It used to be that I only see how bad you beat me in Heavy Metal after the match is over and the results are posted. Being squaded with you made me see that beating in real time. But you made that beating bearable with your good humor and support. Your a good man Pat, and it was an honor to shoot with you.

Officer Jomar Villamor

Minneapolis Police Shooting Team

[fastshooter03]

Disclaimer: I want this match to continue and get better each year. I want to attend this match every year. The following is my opinion and should be taken as such. I know how hard it is to find help, time, and resources for any match.

The RO's were very helpful and friendly as usual. No probs there other than the RO that bailed on our squad Saturday last stage. I turned around and a shooter from our squad was ROing. They told me the original RO just said he was outta there an handed the timer to an assistant RO. Never seen that before???? As for the scoring issues maybe the MD needs to make sure all ROs understand the scoring on the stage they are running.

At least a couple of the safe areas should have had a table or something. I saw guys taking shotguns apart on piles of mulch by stage 1 on Saturday. Why wasn't the mulch being used on the stages?

My first stage comment has to do with the unpainted pistol steel. IMO that should not happen ever at an event this size no matter the weather/range conditions.

If paint wasn't in the budget I for one would have been happy to bring a can or two. I should have brought some rubber or leather work gloves for setting the dirty steel as well but that was an afterthought.

You can't allow a stage like 10 to be so different for those shooting in "POOR" lighting conditions vs those who could actually see the targets. We looked at the stage on thursday evening and we thought they were hard to spot but all could be found. When saturday morning came with the sun shining in your eyes and the targets all in shadows, they were damn near impossible to see. Our average time was 100 seconds

Secondly, stages 5-9 were great in design IMO other than the unpainted pistol steel.

Stage 1-Good layout but had too many shotgun and pistol targets. Shotgun should have only had 9 plates to keep reloading(aka extra time per non-Open shooter) to a minimum. The pistol part should have had 3-5 less targets as well. The rifle part could have used some of the number of targets I would have pulled from the shotgun and pistol part.

Stage 2-Good layout but had too many pistol targets. 3-5 plates should have been pulled and 3-4 standing IPSC targets for the rifle should have taken their place(not position wise of course). Shotgun targets were fine since you had time to reload walking downrange.

Stage 3-Shouldn't have had such small targets for the rifle. Granted there were only 3 but Time and shooter satisfaction should have been considerations here. ALL big IPSC plates would have been quicker and less fustrating.

Stage 4-I'm not sure about this one. Maybe a slightly wider slot? Don't know why sooo many got DQ'd here.

Stage 10-Was just rediculous and unfair without painted steel.

So in conclusion I saw wayyy too many people timing out AGAIN this year and long waits past advertised shooting times. I know it's a balance of difficulty and fun factor and you'll never please everybody.

IMO I think some of this could have been reduced by some stage refining.

The new rifle racks were nice and the shotgun preloading was good except I don't think it needed to be done all at once. That seemed to add time to the walk thru.

Some mulch or something would have sped up a bunch of stages. Guys from Missouri told us it had been raining all month so I would think it would be known that the stages needed some footing help.

If painting pistol targets appears to be a problem just ask shooters to put a little more effort towards doing it and once again I wouldn't mind at all if I had to bring some extra gloves and a can of paint or two as long as everyone does.

I hope I'm not coming off as too negative. I just want everyone to come away enjoying the match and not thinking of it as a long-PITA day. We didn't get out of the range on Sat til 8:00 finishing on stage 4.

If this FNH match want's to be known as one of the better matches in the country, certain things just have to be there to make it so.

Thanks for having the match.

Nick

Squad 5

[No.343]

I already commented on how much I liked the match. I think that one of the VERY best parts of the match was the way Taran Butler praised Jerry even though he had just beaten him in the 3gun nation shoot offs. I just met Taran Butler this match and I don't know a lot about him, but that makes him a class act in my book.

[bigbrowndog]

yeah, but you said that about kurt and I when you first met us too.

Trapr

[jlaw973]

I want to start off by saying FHN does deserve an "A" for effort. They are really stepping up to the plate and putting this sport on the map.

What was with the FTN penalty? I was charged 5 seconds all day on Friday(not that I missed much). The next day on Stage 2 I was charged 10 sec. for FTN on a paper and 5 seconds for turning a plate side ways. I could of sworn the match director said 5 seconds for FTN in the shooters meeting. The match was fun other than the gray areas and the MUD . I'm not sure why it was crammed into two days. The shooters were getting preety punchy by 6pm on Saturday after 11 hours of being on the range( I won't get into details about that ). No surprise we didn't have more DQs. BTW anybody know how many shooters were DQ'd?

You were probably charged 10 seconds for a FTN on the turned plate and 5 seconds for a MISS on the rifle paper. If a plate was turned and left standing, it would have been engaged but not neutralized, therefore the 10 second penalty. As long as atleast 3 rounds were fired at the rifle paper you would not be charged with a FTN since they were disappearing targets. If there was only one round in one of the targets, and not in the A zone, you would have been charged with a 5 second penalty for a MISS.

[kellyn]

Congrats to the winners and especially Rob for the shootoff win.

As for the "gaming" comments. Match directors, ROs and stage designers need to realize that literally dozens of minds are trying to find clever ways to win. They don't care about the stage designers' feelings. I have had shooters demolish stages of mine in ways I never intended and I say GOOD FOR THEM. It is a freestyle problem solving sport.

Your scoring system and stage design should preclude shooters from merely engaging the long range targets not some vague, completely arbitrary and ever inconsistently enforced "failure to do right" rule. Sounds like some shooters merely read and understood the rule system better than the match staff. Larue, Myst. Mountain, Ft. Benning, Blue Ridg, USPSA and IPSC have all successfully dealt with this issue in their scoring systems and stage design.

As for the gun abandonment rules, you just better known and have prepared for the match that you are attending. This has bit me at DPMS and it was MY fault, not the match staff. Now, I completely unload every gun abandoned at every match.

+1.

I apologize for my use of the word "Gamers" in an earlier post. I am referring to situations that may jeopardize the integrity of the match. Freestyle and figuring the fastest way to shoot the course of fire is what it is all about. Life ain't fair but everyone should have the same opportunity in a competition so the winner/fastest time is determined by one's ability with the weapons system, not by "lawyer Speak" or manipulating the rules.

JT

But I am a lawyer!

[Jack T]

Sorry to hear that, but still no one would question your shooting ability or integrity in this sport.

JT

[kurtm]

A few random thoughts from this last weekend.

First all Redneck Tactical instructors "advocate" clearing the firearm to empty on abandonment at EVERY match...we all have seen way too many folks get "the ride" for a safety bumped off by the box or barrel...so Abrn-Rngr..."weallz sayin the same thang" and this is driven home to any and all of our students...Side note: 343 isn't just a student he is a moon-shine drinking amigo and came 3rd in Tac Iron for his first ever big 3-gun! So stand back!

FNH did a whale amount of work to give us all a good time and I would say they did it in spades! Sure a few glitches surfaced but come on now...you all saw the conditions and after about 150 shooter run through these here long stages I don't think many of us could have kept straight all the rules and penalties so have a cold one and we will try to do better next time.

Two funniest comments of the match...the first from Jesse...when he came up to stage two to see the Miller boys flail around; after my abysmal run we were walking back with the R.O.s and he says to the R.O......so how are the really good shooters doing here? I liked to spry water out of my nose!! ( Jesse is a charter student of the Redneck Tactical Association and a true amigo) Second was when one of the F.N. shotguns went single shot on me during the shoot off ( And GET THIS RIGHT it made no difference in the out come!!) and I was told by one of the F.N. folks that I needed to learn how to hold a shotgun right....that was worth $235.00 right there.

Proudest/happiest moments...watching Rob win the 3-Gun Nation shoot off! Mike Pinto win Tac Iron! And watching Jesse passing on weak hand loading techniques in the parking lot and doing it perfect!

[Bass Ackwardz]

Kurt, I have to say it is nice to see that one of the regular good ole boys has a great attitude and did very well in this event despite conditions and glitches. Its attitudes like this that will bring more and more people out to see what 3 gun is all about. And they will learn its all about having a good time, and getting to shoot great stages and the BS with people like you. Thank you for that.

Bass

Edited May 25, 2010 by Bass Ackwardz

[No.343]

yeah, but you said that about kurt and I when you first met us too.

Trapr

I take it back. :cheers:

[cold]

Below is a link to my video of the match including the shoot off with Rob & Kurt, Rob & Glenn and Rob & Taran.

The video itself is a departure from our normal style. It is free from background music, any effects and is simply Rob in his element. In honor of Rob's accomplishment I thought it was best to highlight his performance from this past weekend.

I know that Tod & I could not have been more happy for Rob this past weekend. Since I have known him, he is one of the hardest working shooters in our sport, if not the hardest worker. Without his tutelage I would still be loading a shotgun one round at a time from a dump pouch.

I know that I speak for everyone when I say, congrats, you earned it.

Enjoy it.

[USMCRET]

Below is a link to my video of the match including the shoot off with Rob & Kurt, Rob & Glenn and Rob & Taran.

The video itself is a departure from our normal style. It is free from background music, any effects and is simply Rob in his element. In honor of Rob's accomplishment I thought it was best to highlight his performance from this past weekend.

I know that Tod & I could not have been more happy for Rob this past weekend. Since I have known him, he is one of the hardest working shooters in our sport, if not the hardest worker. Without his tutelage I would still be loading a shotgun one round at a time from a dump pouch.

I know that I speak for everyone when I say, congrats, you earned it.

Enjoy it.

+1 Great job Rob and congrats on a great match. I just hate I wasn't there this year to see it. See y'all in Ala this weekend.

Mike