Popper Calibration Challenge question.

[NMBOpen]

As a shooter who has left a popper standing (not an activator), I have had the RO point it out as he would for a miss on paper, and ask "do you want to challenge?" I still make the decision, and any remaining targets can be scored while the RM is summoned, if needed. That also tells me that he likely won't be calling a FTE procedural on that popper.

The thing is that the RO has to know if he has to call the RM or he can finish resetting the stage and start the next shooter.

Edited March 10, 2010 by NMBOpen

[Flexmoney]

JT,

No offense to Amidon, but you are going to find that he will often give a quick answer and it is based off of how well the situation is presented to him in the question. You will also find that we are usually about 3 or 4 more layers deep in peeling back the onion...with the discussions here.

======================

- "Coaching" is only mentioned in the rule book with the specific situation where it is allowed. (8.6.2.1)

- What you are talking about, per the rule book, would be "interference" with the shooter during a cof. (8.6.various)

- Q: When does a cof end? A: "Range is clear" (8.3.8)

Therefore...there can be no interference during scoring. The shooting is over. We are now trying to properly award the shooter the correct score that they earned.

======================

...if the popper does not fall, hit or not, the competitor has the right to call for a calibration...

That is just plain mistaken. The popper must be hit.

6. If, during a course of fire, a popper does not fall

when hit

, a competitor has

three alternatives:

And, (after the cof) the competitor needs to know that:

- The popper didn't fall.

- That is was hit.

Then the shooter can choose to call for a calibration challenge or not.

[JThompson]

JT,

No offense to Amidon, but you are going to find that he will often give a quick answer and it is based off of how well the situation is presented to him in the question. You will also find that we are usually about 3 or 4 more layers deep in peeling back the onion...with the discussions here.

======================

- "Coaching" is only mentioned in the rule book with the specific situation where it is allowed. (8.6.2.1)

- What you are talking about, per the rule book, would be "interference" with the shooter during a cof. (8.6.various)

- Q: When does a cof end? A: "Range is clear" (8.3.8)

Therefore...there can be no interference during scoring. The shooting is over. We are now trying to properly award the shooter the correct score that they earned.

======================

...if the popper does not fall, hit or not, the competitor has the right to call for a calibration...

That is just plain mistaken. The popper must be hit.

6. If, during a course of fire, a popper does not fall

when hit

, a competitor has

three alternatives:

And, (after the cof) the competitor needs to know that:

- The popper didn't fall.

- That is was hit.

Then the shooter can choose to call for a calibration challenge or not.

Hello John,

I have a quick question for you… My reading of the rules says that the competitor must "initiate" a challenge if a popper doesn't fall when struck. The RO/CRO job is to either call the hit or see a mark on the popper and then either grand or deny the calibration based on their finding.

There is a question up where the RO asked the shooter if he would like a calibration without the shooter asking for one. The way I read this it could be considered coaching to do so. While I personally don't see an issue with asking I do not believe it is within the rules to do so. So in the interest of consistency, I would ask your thoughts on the matter, and if needed have the BOD clarify.

Above, verbatim, is how I worded the question to John.

We can't go by well, on Enos it's this way... we have to go by the book an our DNROI.

I know where coaching is mentioned and I'm not referring to interfering... Please do not tell me what I am talking about. I'm referring to unauthorized assistance which I take to be a form of coaching. There is no coaching either before or after the COF. Look at it this way... If the only caveat is "during" the COF it would be fine for an RO who has ran a stage for two days to walk up to a buddy and say. Check this out, Max Michel found a kick ass way to shoot this thing that nobody else has used. If you take those over there first then go over there and take those, the timing of that swinger is perfect... I guess that would be okay because "coaching" can only take place during a cof? I see coaching as anything that could/does benefit the shooter for a given cof. Telling them they hit a popper and it didn't fall, to me, is clearly helping them should they get a reshoot. It's the shooters responsibility to make sure the poppers are down whether or not he/she can see them at the end of the COF is irrelevant. Where did that idea come from anyway? Can you point me to the rule that says that's relevant?

I asked for further opinion on the "when hit" issue as that's the way I thought of it too.

Again, I don't really like the way the rules are in regrds to poppers and I think we have all made some good suggestions on how to make them more equatable... what we are talking about here is the letter of the book and not how we personally "feel" is should be.

JT

Edited March 10, 2010 by JThompson

[aztecdriver]

JT,

You (as RO) are not "making the challenge."

You are asking the shooter if they would like to make the challenge.

You (as RO) are doing your job because it is on you to assist the shooter, run a fair stage, and properly score the stage consistent to how it was shot.

The shooter is going to amp'd up a bit from just burning down the stage like a bolt of lightening (or, blissfully unaware of anything and looking for their brass ).

On any target that I am going to call a miss on (steel or paper)...or going to call a shot on a line...I always make sure to call the shooter to the attention of that target. The shooting is done. In fact, the cof is "over". So, there is no coaching involved.

I want the shooter to get a fair score. Making sure they are aware of what is going on, and what their options are, is a part of that.

Below from John Amidon

Jim,

If you refer to Appendix C1 item 6, it indicates the three options a competitor has should a popper not fall when hit, it also shows what the procedure is for the calibration officer when there is a challenge.

To make it short, the competitor calls for the challenge and not from suggestion by the RO as I agree, it could be considered coaching.

The RO/CRO doesn't need to see a hit, nor do they have the right to grant or deny a challenge, if the popper does not fall, hit or not, the competitor has the right to call for a calibration, the RO/CRO at that time would call the RM who is usually the calibration officer."

Regards,

John Amidon

Director NROI

USPSA/IPSC

JT,

Thanks for asking John - but I'm thinking it was the wrong question? I didn't initiate the challenge - I simply stated two facts. You hit a popper that is still standing (ie., it will score as a miss) Do you want a calibration? The initiation was not done by me as CRO - it was done by the shooter. I'll turn it around and state - where in the rule book does it say as RO/CRO that during scoring I can't point out a scoring fact and prompt a shooter for a decision?

Let's use a paper target with an "Alpha Mike" on it that the shooter thinks might be a double, but I've looked it over, put two overlays on it, and still am of the decision it's an AM - and I ask the shooter "Do you want me to pull the target?" It's his right to have it pulled and scored by the RM - but am I supposed to tell him that? Sure - it's helping the shooter and expediting the shooter through his legitimate options.

Yeah - I did it - I ratholed through another "what if" situation, but I don't see the rule that disallows me presenting options to the shooter during scoring.

[JThompson]

JT,

You (as RO) are not "making the challenge."

You are asking the shooter if they would like to make the challenge.

You (as RO) are doing your job because it is on you to assist the shooter, run a fair stage, and properly score the stage consistent to how it was shot.

The shooter is going to amp'd up a bit from just burning down the stage like a bolt of lightening (or, blissfully unaware of anything and looking for their brass ).

On any target that I am going to call a miss on (steel or paper)...or going to call a shot on a line...I always make sure to call the shooter to the attention of that target. The shooting is done. In fact, the cof is "over". So, there is no coaching involved.

I want the shooter to get a fair score. Making sure they are aware of what is going on, and what their options are, is a part of that.

Below from John Amidon

Jim,

If you refer to Appendix C1 item 6, it indicates the three options a competitor has should a popper not fall when hit, it also shows what the procedure is for the calibration officer when there is a challenge.

To make it short, the competitor calls for the challenge and not from suggestion by the RO as I agree, it could be considered coaching.

The RO/CRO doesn't need to see a hit, nor do they have the right to grant or deny a challenge, if the popper does not fall, hit or not, the competitor has the right to call for a calibration, the RO/CRO at that time would call the RM who is usually the calibration officer."

Regards,

John Amidon

Director NROI

USPSA/IPSC

JT,

Thanks for asking John - but I'm thinking it was the wrong question? I didn't initiate the challenge - I simply stated two facts. You hit a popper that is still standing (ie., it will score as a miss) Do you want a calibration? The initiation was not done by me as CRO - it was done by the shooter. I'll turn it around and state - where in the rule book does it say as RO/CRO that during scoring I can't point out a scoring fact and prompt a shooter for a decision?

Let's use a paper target with an "Alpha Mike" on it that the shooter thinks might be a double, but I've looked it over, put two overlays on it, and still am of the decision it's an AM - and I ask the shooter "Do you want me to pull the target?" It's his right to have it pulled and scored by the RM - but am I supposed to tell him that? Sure - it's helping the shooter and expediting the shooter through his legitimate options.

Yeah - I did it - I ratholed through another "what if" situation, but I don't see the rule that disallows me presenting options to the shooter during scoring.

" This is what I asked and precisely what you did..

"There is a question up where the RO asked the shooter if he would like a calibration without the shooter asking for one. The way I read this it could be considered coaching to do so. While I personally don't see an issue with asking I do not believe it is within the rules to do so. So in the interest of consistency, I would ask your thoughts on the matter, and if needed have the BOD clarify."

As I said, I'm being the devils advocate here, so it's not personal.

JT

[Gary Stevens]

Regretfully many of our shooters don't have a clue about the rules or their "rights" within those rules.

I also ask them if they would like for me to call the RM, if I am running a stage, to make the final call on the scoring of a target. I just consider it a courtesy.

I always teach RO students to treat shooters like they would like to be treated, up to the point the shooter won't let them. To me this is just another example of practicing what I preach.

[Flexmoney]

JT,

You need to realize that the DNROI gave you an opinion. It's not a ruling. It's not a fact. It has no more bearing on the call at the match than anybody else's opinion here (or anywhere). It has the weight of being the opinion on the DNROI. But, what carries at the match is the rule book, "official interpretations", and the arb process.

Like I said, we are already a number of layers deep into this conversation. And, how/what you ask somebody new to the situation will influence how that person responds.

Had you emailed me out of the blue and asked me the question with the wording you gave John, I might have responded in a similar way.

You have mentioned the rule book a few times here, lets stick with it. And, you are playing devil's advocate, so I will steer some of that back to you.

- You keyed in on the word "initiate" for the challenge. Where is that term used in the rule book? That sounded, to me, like you were saying the RO called for the challenge? Amidon correctly states that it's the shooter choice.

- Your wording then went on to sound like the RO/CRO was granting or denying the calibration challenge. That wasn't the case.

- Whether you call it coaching, assistance, interference...if you look at the rule book, I think you will find that it is defined as "during the cof". (between "Make Ready" & "Range Is Clear") I don't believe there is a rule against giving the shooter advice at other times.

[dbxdm9]

Is the real question here (regardless of this particular issue on poppers)-

Is it a) the RO's responsibility to inform the shooter of the rules/options(i.e. tell the shooter he has the right to a calibration), or, the shooters responsibility to know all the rules (the shooter must ask for a calibration)?

[JThompson]

We can go round and round all night, but the fact is there is nothing to back a claim that the RO can "ask" the shooter if they would like a calibration.

6. If, during a course of fire, a popper does not fall when hit, a competitor has

three alternatives:

a. The popper is shot again until it falls. In this case, no further action is

required and the course of fire is scored "as shot".

b. The popper is left standing but the competitor does not challenge the

calibration. In this case, no further action is required and the course of

fire is scored "as shot", with the subject popper scored as a miss.

c. The popper is left standing and the competitor challenges the calibra-

tion. In this case, the popper and the surrounding area on which it

stands must not be touched or interfered with by any person. If a

Match Official violates this rule, the competitor must reshoot the

course of fire. If the competitor or any other person violates this rule,

the popper will be scored as a miss and the rest of the course of fire

will be scored "as shot". If the popper falls for any non-interference

reason (e.g. wind action), before it can be calibrated, Section 4.6 will

apply and a reshoot must be ordered.

It doesn't say the RO may offer or the RO may ask it says the "competitor challenges." I used a word that doesn't appear in the text... "initiate" When one guy starts talking to another they have ______ a conversation. Since the RO asked the shooter he initiated or, asked the shooter if he wants a calibration; You can't do that under the current rules.

I understand you don't agree, and that's fine, but I do not agree with you and no amount of back and fourth is going to change either of our minds. What we have here is two "interpretations" of the rule and all things being equal, I'll go with the guy who teaches people to become RMI.

John response to the popper "when hit" issue.

6. If, during a course of fire, a popper does not fall when hit, a competitor has three alternatives:

How does it not matter if it was not hit?

Jim

Jim,

This is the same section and item that I referred you to. The question I have, how do you determine a hit?

Usually you hear it hit, and then it doesn’t fall, then there are variables involved, is it a level one where they are not required to paint after every shooter, or is it a higher level that requires it, but it doesn’t get painted from the previous shooter and the competitor is claiming the nick or mark is his, but because it wasn’t painted is not grounds for the competitor to get a reshoot, but taking a chance on a calibration test may.

So in a perfect world, rule 4.3.1.7 is followed and there is a mark on the edge of the steel and the competitor wants a calibration even though we know it will fall because an edge hit on a mini popper normally will not take it down.

Nowhere in the rules does it state that the RO/CRO must look for a hit, and if they did and it did not indicate one and they called it a miss, the competitor still has 9.6.4.

So it comes down to using some common sense on the issue as each one will be different.

John

Best,

JT

Edited March 11, 2010 by JThompson

[ima45dv8]

It doesn't say the RO may offer or the RO may ask...

It also doesn't say they cannot.

[JThompson]

It doesn't say the RO may offer or the RO may ask...

It also doesn't say they cannot.

Well Mark, one RM Tom Drazy says no, another very well known RM said No privately and the head of the NROI said no. oh ya, and little old me.

I don't believe George ever commented directly on the RO asking question.

I think you made the best call you knew how and it's a done deal. Perhaps in the future there will be a ruling on it. I spoke with John and said that there were some that would ignore the "opinion" unless there was some type of ruling on the issue. I haven't heard from him since I sent that email.

I think we covered all the ground we can on this one. I know you did the best you know how Mark. Please do not take my not agreeing with your call as a slight in any way. It was not meant that way, I was just exploring the rules so I can learn where I stand. Also, I feel a duty as an RO to correct any information I see as erroneous if well intended.

I'll back out now and leave it there...

My best to all, I hope I didn't ruffle to many feathers as that was not my intent.

Best,

JT

Edited March 11, 2010 by JThompson

[dbxdm9]

So, I am trying to decipher from all this what should a shooter do if they think they hit the popper but didn't see it fall?

Sounds like I should either keep hitting it until the dang thing drops OR move on and hope to get back to it after finishing the COF (to point it out the official) before a non-official disturbs it or the surrounding area.

Yes?

[Gary Stevens]

I'm going to draw up the "Shooters Miranda Warning". I can see it going something like:

You have the right to a calibration of steel.

You have the right to have an RM score your target.

You have the right to stop yourself if you start without your eye or ear protection.

[Tom D]

Is the real question here (regardless of this particular issue on poppers)-

Is it a) the RO's responsibility to inform the shooter of the rules/options(i.e. tell the shooter he has the right to a calibration), or, the shooters responsibility to know all the rules (the shooter must ask for a calibration)?

The short answer is: it is the shooters responsibility to know the rules. That is why Sedro sends out a rule book to everyone.

[Singlestack]

And thats where the "us vs them" attitude comes from.

I think its rather arrogant to think every (new) shooter knows the whole rule book.

I wish someone would point out the rule that says I can not have a conversation with a shooter about how his stage is being scored. Coaching? Thats a huge stretch. As Flex pointed out, the COF is over.

Edited to add:

I have seen several opinions posted. I have not seen a rule yet.

Edited March 11, 2010 by Singlestack

[Tom D]

The longer answer is that there are many rules that state it is the shooters responsibility.

Rule 3.1 The competitor is always responsible to safely fulfil the requirements of a course

of fire....

Rule 8.3.2 Are You Ready? The lack of any negative response from the competitor

indicates that he fully understands the requirements of the

course of fire and is ready to proceed. If the competitor is not ready at

the Are You Ready? command, he must state Not Ready. It is suggested

that when the competitor is ready he should assume the required

start position to indicate his readiness to the Range Officer.

Rule 8.3.7 If Clear, Hammer Down, Holster After issuance of this command,

the competitor is prohibited from firing (see Rule 10.4.3). While continuing

to point the handgun safely downrange, the competitor must

perform a final safety check of the handgun as follows:

Rule 9.6.3 A competitor (or his delegate) who fails to verify a target during the

scoring process loses all right of appeal in respect of scoring that target.

Each competitor is responsible to maintain an accurate record of their

scores to verify the lists posted by the Stats Officer.

I could keep going , but I think I made my point. It is the shooter who needs to know the rule book.

Tom

Edited March 11, 2010 by Tom D

[aztecdriver]

As I said, I'm being the devils advocate here, so it's not personal.

JT

JT,

Oh, I'm well aware of the that role! i'm fine with you playing devils advocate, and I don't take it personally. I agree with Gary - obviously, and appreciate you getting Amidon's thoughts on this. Personally, I get it - but if you turn RO's into robots that just call out scores and yell range commands - you lose a great deal of value.

The problem is the phrasing of the question.. is it or is it NOT coaching. One can make the case that it is - another can make the case is it not - do we start creating rules on what happens POST COF.

That's the road we are dancing with, and I would like to have an NROI ruling - I might just ask that it happen.

JT, I'm always one - and Mark knows this - that will inspect ones self for mistakes, and figure out ways to get better at - not only shooting, but officiating or whatever. I don't take it personally and actually welcome the discussion. It's going to make me a better CRO and eventually RM -- maybe I'll take Troy's job some day (come on, troy chuckle a bit). In either case - no foulness here... let's keep it civil and get somewhere positive.

Thanks,

-Ken

[Singlestack]

Tom,

Which one of the rules you posted says I can not ask a shooter if he wants to call for calibration?

[Singlestack]

I'm going to draw up the "Shooters Miranda Warning". I can see it going something like:

You have the right to a calibration of steel.

You have the right to have an RM score your target.

You have the right to stop yourself if you start without your eye or ear protection.

Thats not a bad idea Gary. It could be on the Membership card.

[Tom D]

Tom,

Which one of the rules you posted says I can not ask a shooter if he wants to call for calibration?

I was writing my longer responce while you posted yours. This was not is response to your post.

I am actually kind of on your side and what Gary said. I do't see a problem in asking, IF you ask all shooters. (Being consistant) But, it is not the responsibility of the CRO to do so. It IS up to the shooter to know the rules.

Tom

[George Jones]

Here my take on this:

I'm a rules kind of guy, a result of my profession. I first look for the obvious - is it specifically prohibited? Is it specifically allowed?

Absent the above, I usually take the approach that I have to interpret the gray area. In this case, there is no rule which says I should volunteer the options to the shooter, but neither is there a rule which says I cannot. So, in my opinion, as long as I do my best to give every shooter the same treatment, yes, I will attempt to assist the shooter in taking advantage of the pertinent rule. I think it's part of my job.

That doesn't mean I'm going to do cartwheels to help someone who is too lazy to do it himself, but as long as the shooter is reasonably involved, I will inform him of his rights. If I'm the RO on a scoring call on a paper target, I will ask the shooter if he wants the CRO to bring his overlay. If I'm the CRO, I'll ask the shooter if he wants the RM. But if the shooter isn't interested in looking at his targets, well, so be it - I'll make my call and move on.

In this kind of case, I'll call the miss on the steel and if the stage layout makes it tough for the shooter to see that steel, I would probably make sure he hears me and try to assure the steel isn't disturbed until he gets a chance to see it. But again, the shooter needs to be involved. Once he's there, I have no problem mentioning the availability of a calibration challenge if it appears to me that it is a viable option (he's hit it - the popper may be malfunctioning - etc).

Although I agree that it is a shooter's responsibility to know the rules, it is MY job as a RO/CRO/RM to enforce them. I cannot in good concience ignore a rule which I believe applies to the situation. Just my opinion.

It's the kinder and gentler me.

[MoNsTeR]

I think we're being EXTREMELY unrealistic here. To illustrate, consider how things might play out if the RO did NOT ask the shooter if he wanted the popper calibrated. It's already been established that the popper in question was not visible from the end of the CoF, so without prompting the shooter is going to have no basis to call for calibration. If we assume that the RO begins scoring from the end of the CoF and eventually moves on to the popper in question, and indicates a Miss to the scorekeeper. At that point the competitor is going to say "Whoa, wait a second, I know I hit that popper, look there's a bullet splatter mark right there! I want a calibration." And now we're right back where we started. So what have we gained by refraining from suggesting calibration to the shooter? Nothing, in fact we've lost something: the likely-wasted time scoring up until we reached the problematic popper.

I'm sure that someone will say that the calibration challenge must be made before scoring begins but there's simply no support for that idea in the rulebook. C1.6.c, which has already been quoted in full in this thread, does not say anything at all about WHEN the challenge must be issued. And rule 9.6.4...

Any challenge to a score or penalty must be appealed to the Range

Officer by the competitor (or his delegate) prior to the subject target

being painted, patched, or reset, failing which such challenges will not

be accepted.

...taken within the context of the rest of 9.6 and what we all know about how scoring is done, indicates that challenging the calibration of a popper during the scoring process, as postulated in the story above, is perfectly acceptable.

So if the competitor is going to challenge the calibration of the target as soon as he sees it, and can't see it from where the CoF ends, what can we possibly gain by NOT suggesting this course of action to him? All this is going to accomplish is to screw a new competitor who doesn't know he can ask for a calibration at all. For any competitor who knows he's entitled to calibration, it will accomplish at best nothing, likely a waste of time, and at worst provide more opportunity for someone to accidentally interfere with the target leaving the competitor with a miss as per C1.6.c.

Asking the competitor if they would like a reshoot is the right thing to do.

[aztecdriver]

Noah - that's what I was thinking - even if I didn't verbalize it. Off to work...

[mactiger]

... maybe I'll take Troy's job some day (come on, troy chuckle a bit). In either case - no foulness here... let's keep it civil and get somewhere positive.

Thanks,

-Ken

Troy

[mactiger]

Here's what I wrote to JT when he asked me about it yesterday, with a few more thoughts thrown in:

I don't, and wouldn't, ask the competitor if they wanted a calibration. I believe you should know the rules to play the game, at least to some degree. The other folks in the squad can advise him all they want, and the competitor will probably get the hint. As long as they are doing that outside the COF, it's fine. The problem as I see it is not consistency on a single stage, but consistency across the entire match. If one RO is making suggestions as to calibrations and scoring calls, and the one on the next stage isn't, (or even another RO on the same stage), then the consistency suffers. Ideally, everyone should be treated the same.

As for it being hit, if the competitor asks for a calibration, I'll have it shot. And, if I'm the RM, I'll look at it, and even if it looks broken, or doesn't show a hit, then I'll shoot it. Nothing wrong with that. As for painting it, I probably wouldn't call that interfering with it. But, if it was painted prior to the RM or calibration officer showing up to shoot it, he may think it wasn't hit. Big deal--shoot it anyway.

I don't think it's right or wrong, and some people believe that they can do it consistently. It's kind of a moot point, anyway, because you know everyone on the squad is going to be telling him to have it calibrated, right? And that's not coaching either.

I do think that it might provide an unfair advantage to one competitor that might not know to call for calibration if the RO tells him to, and disadvantage another in the same boat but with a silent RO.

Bottom line, it's not against the rules, it's not coaching, and it's not un-friendly. My main concern is consistency, especially when it's match officials giving the advice. We don't tell a competitor that he forgot to load his gun--can't guarantee we can do that all the time, so it's actually in the rules not to. (see 8.1) Does it make a difference at a level one match versus a level II or III? Possibly, due to the higher stakes perceived by many competitors. Do I think this is an "us vs. them" attitude? Not really, but it is a grey area in the rules and therefore a fertile breeding ground for inconsistent treatment of competitors, whether you are trying to be kinder and gentler or not. Inconsistency is one of the major factors in the competitor's perception of the quality of staff at any match, IMO.

I'm not condemning anyone who does tell the competitor he can call for calibration. I only want to point out that it could be problematic at a large match with a large and diverse staff, and there's really nothing in the rules that prevents a range officer from doing it.

That's my 2 cents, anyway.

Troy