Ft Benning 3-Gun Challenge 2010

[Jim Norman]

I think there was a song a long time back that sums up my feeling for Ft. Benning. "I love you just the way you are". Reducing the penalties especially for long targets makes it very easy to throw a shot and scoot rather than actually make the attempt. Flying targets are just that targets, hit them. We have to hit swingers and Texas Stars etc. I too might like to see my targets, but if there was a problem those targets were shown. If there are two A hits, then there are two A hits. Speed shoots are drills, like classifiers. I do them at home, I don't need to invest a thousand dollars to go shoot a bunch or par time stand and shoot stages. I too want to make up time, I find the best way to do that is to practice. My finish this year was much better than last. I hope that I get in next year and continue the trend.

If I were going to change the scoring I would consider using hit factor, but I'd still look to the three tier of 100, 125, 150 points depending upon the number of weapon systems employed.

What would I like to see next year? Good question. I suppose more unique toys that we can't play with at home. The 203, the SAW, throw in a ACR and maybe a dedicated Grenade Launcher or maybe some way to shoot off of a mounted weapon system from a Bradley or Striker? No need to jump from planes or bring in a Blackhawk. Perhaps transitions? Rifle shot to dry, sling and engage with handgun? How about moving back using pick up weapons, but having to recover them and keep them as you move? The trench stage was cool. I would have like more rifle shots, but at the end, I was breathing deeply! Maybe a chance to shoot a real long distance sniper rifle. Stage one with three targets in the building across the valley, 6 shots in the gun, then transition and use your Rifle, and Pistol. Maybe a door breech? maybe some simulators just for the effect? Maybe bring back Trooper? Maybe make the whole match Trooper?

Heck, what ever, I am going to be finger poised above send when the time comes in 2011

[Jadeslade]

Some Video of Taran Butler, Match Winner.

[Charles Bond]

"make the whole match trroper or bring it back"? Come on Jim. I did not know you had started seling packs as a sideline.

[Jim Norman]

Have to do something to offset the cost of gas!

[AlamoShooter]

I don't know nothing

Edited December 9, 2010 by AlamoShooter

[Scout454]

That's what we had before - a hosefest. Nobody had to try to be accurate and no one did.

That has - thankfully - changed with "Horner" scoring and most of the large matches are using it.

As far as I'm concerned - and my matches reflect this - some of the penalties are still too lenient. 5 points for a no shoot isn't nearly enough. Hitting a no shoot should be a minimum of 15 seconds and I'd sooner see 30.

Making a 400 yard shot a 10 point penalty simply means that you fire one shot and go for the fastest time and all that does is turn the match into a running event - cross country with guns. Having trouble with flying clays? Shoot 5 stand and learn how to hit them - or take the penalty. I'd like to see some of the handgun targets at 40 and 50 yards - IPSC used to do that too.

I'm sure you can find local matches that encourage hoser stages - USPSA used to be like that and maybe they still are - but as long as we have "Outlaw" matches I sincerely hope they make you shoot - not just pull a trigger.

[gose]

That's what we had before - a hosefest. Nobody had to try to be accurate and no one did.

That has - thankfully - changed with "Horner" scoring and most of the large matches are using it.

As far as I'm concerned - and my matches reflect this - some of the penalties are still too lenient. 5 points for a no shoot isn't nearly enough. Hitting a no shoot should be a minimum of 15 seconds and I'd sooner see 30.

Making a 400 yard shot a 10 point penalty simply means that you fire one shot and go for the fastest time and all that does is turn the match into a running event - cross country with guns. Having trouble with flying clays? Shoot 5 stand and learn how to hit them - or take the penalty. I'd like to see some of the handgun targets at 40 and 50 yards - IPSC used to do that too.

I'm sure you can find local matches that encourage hoser stages - USPSA used to be like that and maybe they still are - but as long as we have "Outlaw" matches I sincerely hope they make you shoot - not just pull a trigger.

That's the good thing about outlaw matches, the organizers can do whatever they want and people will vote with their wallets and feet

Though I'm not sure if most of the large matches use Horner scoring, afaik, SMM3G, Iron Man, DPMS, Midwest and the USPSA Nats (if that one counts) aren't.

I'd also argue that a stage being a hoser stage, or not, is more depending on the stage design than the scoring system used, but Horner do force you to slow down, no question about that...

With that being said, I think Horner is a pretty good compromise between accuracy and speed, more accuracy and it starts turning into a multigun bullseye match and more speed and it turns into a running game.

However, I dont really care much which scoring system that's being used, I'll just try to adapt to the flavor of the day and have fun

Edited December 10, 2010 by gose

[A well Earled machine]

Match was great but the people were Awesome! I had a great time on Stage 3 with SSGT Joel Micholick, SGT George Norton, SGT Jeff Holguin and my good friend Earl Jull. Of course everybody's favorite on Stage 3 was the M249 SAW with over 6000 rounds fired in 4 days of competition.

Many thanks to the AMU, SFC Hampton, Linda Chico and everybody else that made this a reality. Hope to see you all again next year.

Same here. Right back at ya brother.

I shot an ok match - hit the ground running and hurry through 8 stages. We started on 2 & lost the light on 9 so we finished 1 on Friday.

I ate large quantities of red meat cooked over fire, drank some dark beer, smoked a good cigar. I got to R/O a fun stage with no drama or back-ups, more help than we needed and a real good friend.

Yep, I'd have to say it was a pretty good vacation.

Thanks to all,

Earl

[OPENB]

The only observation I made on scoring was the flying clay on stage 1, if it broke on launch, fire a shot and take credit for a hit. It worked in my favor, but just isn't fair. No one on my squad hit that bird, but half of us got credit for it. Not a match breaker, but not a fair way to measure a shooter's ability to hit a flying clay. I would sooner see that taken out, and measure my ability on that stage with something all shooter's in my division had an equal chance at doing.

[Gaoler]

I think there was a song a long time back that sums up my feeling for Ft. Benning. "I love you just the way you are".

Billy Joel, "Just the Way You Are" released in 1977

My only wish re. Ft. Benning is that it was closer to your Northern border

[Charles Bond]

The only observation I made on scoring was the flying clay on stage 1, if it broke on launch, fire a shot and take credit for a hit. It worked in my favor, but just isn't fair. No one on my squad hit that bird, but half of us got credit for it. Not a match breaker, but not a fair way to measure a shooter's ability to hit a flying clay. I would sooner see that taken out, and measure my ability on that stage with something all shooter's in my division had an equal chance at doing.

Taking flying targets out of a match dumbs it down. If being fair is the worry we should have started stage one with the clays so if it broke on liftoff, you just started over. Flying birds worked well at the PanAM and they can work at Benning and any other match.

If anything is to change on shotgun, let us also add some buckshot to the mix.

[Jim Norman]

OK, dumb question time.

Horner scoring, we have time plus with larger penalties for long range shots and different points for one, two or three gun stages.

I know other matches have run with enhanced penalties including USPSA, I know that making all the stages worth the same points has been around a long time. Having different stages worth different points is a part of HF scoring. A 10 round stage is worth 50 points, a 20 round stage is worth 100 points. Horner varies some on this in that a 3 gun stage even if only one easy shot is fired from each would arguably be worth 150 points, but a 50 round rifle stage of extreme difficulty would only be worth 100 points. Not sure that is the best. So long as the rounds and difficulty is maintained to some degree the varied points is OK.

I agree with Mike about a NoShoot or Hostage target should be worth more of a penalty. I can make an argument for a zero if a target is not engaged or neutralized although that might make for a whole different flavor of match. I personally favor all stages and skills being equally weighted. As an alternate each shot is worth the same for the entire match.

As for targets, the flyer was maybe the only target that is questionable. It didn't always go when you hit the switch and it sometimes broke, so a shot fired was worth 10 seconds when an honest miss cost the shooter that 10. The couple flipped birds were not a real problem they seem to work almost perfectly.

It was overall and even to the minutia a well run match. We kept on schedule, no extreme back-ups anywhere.

[THellURider]

We did not get as much video as we usually do but here is some of our highlights from the match.

Thanks to everyone at Ft. Benning, with special thanks going to the AMU, Linda, and Sandra for doing a excellent job, again.

Great vid. Great shooting with ya bud.

[kellyn]

We did not get as much video as we usually do but here is some of our highlights from the match.

Thanks to everyone at Ft. Benning, with special thanks going to the AMU, Linda, and Sandra for doing a excellent job, again.

Great vid. Great shooting with ya bud.

That Team Noveske sure has a serious sound track.

[Charles Bond]

Time to out Kurt Miller on something he did to someone at Ft Benning.

Kurt made the shootoff but he did not shoot. Instead of putting himself in the running for the win, he gave his position to 14 year old Katie Harris who is a up and coming junior lady shooter. What a gift Kurt!

It is unselfish acts like this that make Kurt a great competitor and makes me very proud to be associated with this sport.

[sbmd]

Charles I am glad you brought up unselfish acts.....

Does the BE members realize that in August 2010 this match was canceled by the Fort Benning JAG. You see there is a little catch in Army Regulations that created a conflict with the solicitation of prizes for the match. It was CANCELED!

Do to some creative thinking the crew at the AMU was able to obtain the prizes as the Brinson Markmanship Committee, this the black shirts and all the paperwork you filled out prior to the match. To pull this off, all those had to separate themselves from the Army and the federal government.

So these guys took leave during the match to run it! Yes folks they used their leave to make this happen for us! That is a true testament to thinking outside the box to produce this match for us to enjoy.

As Paul harvey says "now you know the rest of the story"

[HS101]

Charles I am glad you brought up unselfish acts.....

Does the BE members realize that in August 2010 this match was canceled by the Fort Benning JAG. You see there is a little catch in Army Regulations that created a conflict with the solicitation of prizes for the match. It was CANCELED!

Do to some creative thinking the crew at the AMU was able to obtain the prizes as the Brinson Markmanship Committee, this the black shirts and all the paperwork you filled out prior to the match. To pull this off, all those had to separate themselves from the Army and the federal government.

So these guys took leave during the match to run it! Yes folks they used their leave to make this happen for us! That is a true testament to thinking outside the box to produce this match for us to enjoy.

As Paul harvey says "now you know the rest of the story"

wow!

[Jim Norman]

Wow is right. Thanks doesn't even start to express how I feel. To take leave time that they could have used to go home and spend it with us. Wow!

Then again it took lawyers to screw this up after 5 years!

[Lee King]

Wow is right. Thanks doesn't even start to express how I feel. To take leave time that they could have used to go home and spend it with us. Wow!

+1

Edit - remove the lawyer bit... just expressing my gratitude to the AMU. Unintentional quote.

Edited December 10, 2010 by Lee King

[Charles Bond]

Wow is right. Thanks doesn't even start to express how I feel. To take leave time that they could have used to go home and spend it with us. Wow!

Then again it took lawyers to screw this up after 5 years!

+1

Not sure I agree guys.

This match existed for years without a hicup. Then JAG tells them this? Well JAG only told them this because someone asked.

Secondly JAGs opinion had to turn on how this match was represented. What I had heard in the past is that AMU wanted to do this to give back to the shooting community and IMO you treat that just like you would treat them if they were out doing work for Toys for Tots or any other charity.

Perhaps it turned on the fact that there was no IRS recognized charity involved here. Were they to run the match under the umbrella of USPSA, that burden would be met. I am NOT saying that I advocate for that but rather am just thinking that might be a work around.

[Jim Norman]

I guess the question that will be hanging out there is: Who Asked Whom and Why?

For 5 years the match ran, now suddenly there was a problem. The problem is/was solved for this year.

Is the AMU a legal recipient of the profits if any of from the match? How about Wounded Warrior or some other worthy cause.

All this said however, the members of the AMU giving up their personal time off is just awesome. Yeah, I know, when we run a match we give up our personal time off too, but each night we are likely to be Home with our families, not hundreds or thousands of miles away.

So once again, Thank you AMU and all the rest.

[Jadeslade]

Let the AMU handle this. I have great confidence in them.

[ChristianHE]

On a different note...

SQUAD 16 ! I started posting video on youtube.com of us.

So far I have James Dunham, Wynn, Alex W., one fine gentleman whom I forgot his name and myself (Christian)

Just search on youtube for qafmbr and you'll see the vids listed.

Enjoy!

[AlamoShooter]

The FB event was my first 3gun event in 08 that event set the hook. And I received the Challenge Coin. The presentation of the coin explaining the origin sets the FB as my first Kiss in 3 gun. I will never forget.

Thanks to all of the Fort Benning people.

Jamie

[Charles Bond]

"Is the AMU a legal recipient of the profits if any of from the match? How about Wounded Warrior or some other worthy cause."

It is my understanding that they are prohibited from making a profit on the match and that has always been the case. However if you consider that all that coffee that Linda drinks costs, you would know that a profit is not possible.