Counterproductive .22 practice?

[Slim Pickens]

I need to work on quickly reacquiring my sights, so I figured I'd get a Kadet .22 kit for my CZ 75, the logic being that with negligeable recoil I'd be able to focus on my technique and then "work my way up" to 9mm. Thing is, a good deal for a Beretta 87 Target came my way and I nabbed it. I really like it but the "problem" is that since it's such a different gun (much lighter; smaller/narrower grip etc) is practicing on it rather than the CZ going to do more harm than good for me trying to improve with the CZ? Here's a side by side pic to show the difference in size. The Beretta feels WAY smaller in the hand.

I'd be interested to hear any comments anyone might have, 'cause for the moment "buy the Kadet too" isn't an option.

[vluc]

I shoot a G34 in production and years ago got a Walther P22 to practice with. Found the whole setup was too far off from what I shoot that I sold it and used the money to buy an Advantage Arms top end for my Glock. Put similar sights on it and the difference in practicing with it was dramatic.

[GForceLizard]

Everything you can do to make the practice as close to the real thing as possible is going to help. The Beretta already feels different to you. The Kadet will let you get the aligment correct, same frame, same trigger pull. Finish each session with the standard slide to get yourself back into the correct recoil.

[Slim Pickens]

That's pretty much what I suspected so looks like I'll be saving up for a Kadet. Serves me right for being impulsive.

Still, having an extra gun around the house never hurt anybody

Thanks for the advice!

Edited March 1, 2010 by Slim Pickens

[prreed10]

I shoot a Glock 34/35 and have used a AA kit for some time. Here are some of the things I have noticed:

Its considerably lighter, even with a fully loaded mag, which causes it to feel different when I draw. It does not completely fit my holster. The AA kit is 17/22 length, so its a little more to clear the holster. After shooting a 200-300 round range secession with the .22, shooting my 130 PF 9mm or 40 loads feel like shooting a 44 Mag. I try to use it early in the week and never close to a major match. It is a good alternative to dry firing, but I still like to draw/dryfire the real thing.

[CHA-LEE]

Practice what you race with. Sure .22 conversions save you money on ammo but it isn’t the same as practicing with your normal gun. The same could be said for Airsoft. But I think its more important to think about what and how you are practicing to make your real ammo worth it. A good question to ask yourself would be “What CAN’T I practice in dry fire”. When you come down to it the only thing you can’t practice in dry fire is recoil management and tracking the sights when the gun does fire. Knowing this, why would you want to “Untrain” yourself on recoil management and sight tracking skills by shooting an obviously different feeling/acting .22 when you are live firing? It just seems counter productive to me.

If you don’t want to burn through a lot of real ammo at the range when you live fire practice, simply dry fire the training drills half of the time and then live fire it the other half. That way you are still able to train with your normal gun ALL the time regardless of whether its going bang or not when you pull the trigger. A lot of doing better in this game is optimizing the things you are doing when the gun does not go “Bang”. Knowing that put live fire into the proper perspective.

[CocoBolo]

+1 on what the bear says. Dry fire. Now reading between the lines sounds like you got more bang than you are comfortable with. If you are reloading then you can tame that beast by going to a better load. 125gr with 4.7gr of WST will put you into the 130pf and be a lot nicer shooting than Walmart ammo. N320 makes a good load. But if you are not comfortable put in 3.8 gr, it will run the gun and knock down steel and make good practice, then just work up.

If the gun is box stock put a 15# recoil spring in it and cut the trigger pull in half.

Take that 22 out and find a plat rack and shoot the snot out of it try to go fast, train your brain and eyes to go fast have fun and it will help you go faster with the CZ. The theory is that put a Yugo driver in a Ferrari for a couple days and he will drive the wheels off the Yugo when he gets back in it. Shooting the 22 requires you to work the trigger and align the sights those things will follow you to your CZ.

Recoil happens, there is no stoping it there is no management and fighting it causes more problems than it solves. Benos in his book says it don't matter long as the gun comes back to where it was.

[Slim Pickens]

Practice what you race with. Sure .22 conversions save you money on ammo but it isn’t the same as practicing with your normal gun. The same could be said for Airsoft. But I think its more important to think about what and how you are practicing to make your real ammo worth it. A good question to ask yourself would be “What CAN’T I practice in dry fire”. When you come down to it the only thing you can’t practice in dry fire is recoil management and tracking the sights when the gun does fire. Knowing this, why would you want to “Untrain” yourself on recoil management and sight tracking skills by shooting an obviously different feeling/acting .22 when you are live firing? It just seems counter productive to me.

If you don’t want to burn through a lot of real ammo at the range when you live fire practice, simply dry fire the training drills half of the time and then live fire it the other half. That way you are still able to train with your normal gun ALL the time regardless of whether its going bang or not when you pull the trigger. A lot of doing better in this game is optimizing the things you are doing when the gun does not go “Bang”. Knowing that put live fire into the proper perspective.

I can certainly see your point in doing more dry fire rather than mucking about with another gun that feels different. "More dry fire!" is definitely a recurring theme on this forum! Quite rightly too.

+1 on what the bear says. Dry fire. Now reading between the lines sounds like you got more bang than you are comfortable with.

Well the recoil per se isn't a problem really (I shoot 9mm 124gr S&B FMJ). I can accurately fire 10 shots in 20 seconds for example (accurate for me meaning everything in the 7 ring of a C50 target at 25 meters, which wouldn't count as accurate for others I realize) , but when I try to go faster or try to do controlled pairs everything goes haywire. I figured this is a mental obstacle more than a physical one but I don't know how I can get over it in dry fire.

Perhaps a better solution would be to use the 9mm exclusively for live fire, but practice by setting the target at 7 meters to start and not worrying about accuracy too much and then working my way up to a greater distance.

[LPatterson]

I use my .22 as a means to gain trigger time when I am not able to pick up my brass. The practice is on steel A zone plates starting at 10 yards with the plates 4' apart. Transition between the plates as fast as possible until the misses exceed 25% and dial it back until there are 90% hits. Then I'll back up to 15 yards and move the plates to 8' apart this is where leading with the eyes becomes extremely important as it is easy to over swing. I finish every session at 25 yards and weather permitting need 100 straight before quitting.

[MichiganShootist]

I broke down and bought a Kimber 22 "upper" for my single stacks. It came with a BoMar "look alike" rear sight..... then I added a Dawson front and have what is other than a slight weight difference.....as close as I can get to a perfect practice 22. Obviously the lack of recoil effects drills... but I have REALLY improved the speed and accuracy of my first shot from the holster.

[murkish]

I am a Glock shooter in USPSA Limited and Production Divisions. I often use a Browning Buckmark in practice sessions to focus on sight picture and trigger control. I have found that it can highlight over-muscling of the gun in recoil and tremendously improves my accuracy with my glocks.

It is important to note that I am not trying to simulate the glock experience in anyway. I am just trying to isolate something that is hidden in the heavier recoil of the .40 and 9mm pistols.

Regards,

Jack

[High Lord Gomer]

...I finish every session at 25 yards and weather permitting need 100 straight before quitting.

I'd never get to leave until it rained.

[Flyin40]

Since your gun is quite a bit different I would just be careful what you worked on. If you can get a set of sights close to your 9mm gun I would do it. Just work on accuracy, calling your shot. This will translate directly to your 9mm or any other pistol. The only thing you are working on is the sight picture and trigger pull. Calling your shots is calling your shots, shooting an A is shooting an A. It doesn't matter what gun you do it with. Visual patience and sight alignment isn't gun specific. Its a skill all into itself.

My STI 22 conversion was down last yr and I used a browning buckmark. Completely different gun. It even had a grip on the left side that was finger grooved for the trigger finger but I was left handed and it just stuck in my palm. The only thing that was the same was the C-more and thats all that mattered for what I needed it for. I couldn't practice draws or picking the gun from a table because of the difference of the gun and grip it would cause problems.

If that 22 is all you have and just work on shot calling and trigger pull. Don't try to work on table starts etc.

Flyin

[Flyin40]

Practice what you race with. Sure .22 conversions save you money on ammo but it isn’t the same as practicing with your normal gun. The same could be said for Airsoft. But I think its more important to think about what and how you are practicing to make your real ammo worth it. A good question to ask yourself would be “What CAN’T I practice in dry fire”. When you come down to it the only thing you can’t practice in dry fire is recoil management and tracking the sights when the gun does fire. Knowing this, why would you want to “Untrain” yourself on recoil management and sight tracking skills by shooting an obviously different feeling/acting .22 when you are live firing? It just seems counter productive to me.

If you don’t want to burn through a lot of real ammo at the range when you live fire practice, simply dry fire the training drills half of the time and then live fire it the other half. That way you are still able to train with your normal gun ALL the time regardless of whether its going bang or not when you pull the trigger. A lot of doing better in this game is optimizing the things you are doing when the gun does not go “Bang”. Knowing that put live fire into the proper perspective.

Do you think a 22 should be used at all for practice?? Can you explain what the difference is between calling a shot between a 22 and another gun??

Also how much 22 practice have you done?? Just wondering because you might be selling yourself short. I know what your saying and what your saying sounds like it should be right but its just not. I agree that the more full power ammo used the better but there are alot of things that a 22 can be used for without hurting the shooter.

There a quite a few top shooters who would disagree with you about the 22 and airsoft. Some of them pro's. They have their place in training as a training tool. Its not meant as a replacement. If we both worked on a certain drills and ended up with the same result after shooting 1000rounds and I spent $20 and you spent $150??

What I'm really getting at is calling your shot and visual patience. If you get right down to it, it should not matter at all what gun you have in your hand. You either have the visual patience to let the sights line up, squeeze the trigger and call your shot or you don't. Different gun, different loads, rain, bags on targets etc are all just a distraction from shooting. How do you think guys can switch from Limited/Open Nationals then shoot Production Nationals a couple of days later. Completely different gun.

Just opening up the discussion alittle more.

Flyin

[jkatz44]

Since your gun is quite a bit different I would just be careful what you worked on. If you can get a set of sights close to your 9mm gun I would do it. Just work on accuracy, calling your shot. This will translate directly to your 9mm or any other pistol. The only thing you are working on is the sight picture and trigger pull. Calling your shots is calling your shots, shooting an A is shooting an A. It doesn't matter what gun you do it with. Visual patience and sight alignment isn't gun specific. Its a skill all into itself.

My STI 22 conversion was down last yr and I used a browning buckmark. Completely different gun. It even had a grip on the left side that was finger grooved for the trigger finger but I was left handed and it just stuck in my palm. The only thing that was the same was the C-more and thats all that mattered for what I needed it for. I couldn't practice draws or picking the gun from a table because of the difference of the gun and grip it would cause problems.

If that 22 is all you have and just work on shot calling and trigger pull. Don't try to work on table starts etc.

Flyin

Good point!

[38supPat]

I agree with F40, I have a Ruger .22/45 that I've been doing a lot of drills with lately and I find it a huge help. Dot tracking, sight picture, trigger press are all relevant. It doesn't have to be the same, in fact it may even be helpful if it is a bit different. Mine is a stock Ruger with a C-More, no trigger kits, no other work, just a basic .22 and I've never been more confident in my ability to shoot accurately because of it.

[LPatterson]

...I finish every session at 25 yards and weather permitting need 100 straight before quitting.

I'd never get to leave until it rained.

Little tidbit I didn't mention is the .22 is a 22/45 with a Tactical Solution compensated barrel and it has a C-More mounted on it to approximate my G24C. The 22/45 also has Volquartson internals.

[CHA-LEE]

Flyin40> I totally see where you are coming from and mostly agree with your stance on the subject. From my perspective, my live fire practice time isn't limited by ammo availability or cost of that ammo. Its limited to being able to get out to the range and actually do it. Knowing this, I am not going to squander my limited live fire practice time by shooting a gun that isn't what I compete with. I usually only get about 100 rounds of live fire practice a week on average and the rest of my shooting is done in matches. So no, I am not going to shoot a .22 to offset the minimal cost of ammo I am currently shooting in practice. Sure, if you are going to the range every day and blowing through 500 - 1000 rounds then you would need a cheaper alternative such as a .22. But who is really doing that verses just being a cheap ass?

You are also correct about calling your shot is a visual process. But I disagree with your stance of it being the same across guns. When I shoot a .22, minor PF, or major PF ammo that makes the gun recoil very differently and thus the sights track a lot differently. Watching the sights track in recoil and recovery is a huge part of calling your shots and being visually prepared to call the next shot as soon as you can. Why would I want to practice with something that does not track the sights the same way as what I compete with? Its like saying that an F1 driver gets the same amount of quality practice by going to a local GoKart track and renting a Kart a couple of hours. Its just not the same so for the fine tuning things the practice really isn't relevant.

Every division requires a specific type of practice due to how the guns shoot. I shoot Limited with Major PF ammo. Picking up a .22 and shooting it is very different in many ways when compared to shooting my Limited gun. If you are shooting a Minor PF Production gun, or even better, a properly tuned Open gun maybe a .22 shoots pretty similar in recoil magnitude and management required for it. So maybe .22 practice is closer to the real thing in those conditions??? I don't shoot Open or Production so I don't know.

I am not trying to tell anyone to not shoot .22's in practice. Do whatever you feel is needed to get better. All I am trying to do is voice my opinion on the topic compared to my shooting schedule and experience. I have seen a lot of shooters try the .22 rout in their practice and they eventually give it up because its too different than shooting their competition stuff. It tends to erode the mechanics of their grip and stance fundamentals because there is a lot less recoil and you can be a lot less diligent about gripping the gun properly or standing correctly. A common theme I have heard shooters make after shooting a bunch of .22 in practice is "When I shot my competition gun it felt like I was shooting self defense loads and I wasnt use to the magnitude of recoil". Make your own choice on what you believe will take you to the next level in your skill set. Shooting a .22 instead of your normal competition gear and ammo just seems like an unneeded step backwards.

Edited March 8, 2010 by CHA-LEE

[38supPat]

Its like saying that an F1 driver gets the same amount of quality practice by going to a local GoKart track and renting a Kart a couple of hours. Its just not the same so for the fine tuning things the practice really isn't relevant.

I'm not sure if you know this but almost all F1 drivers do Go-Kart in the off season and a couple run big charity events...

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/263153-felipe-massa-races-go-kart-and-expresses-interest-in-racing-at-abu-dhabi

http://formula1.about.com/od/formula1101/ig/Go-Karting--The-Road-to-F1-/kartrophy1.htm

[MichiganShootist]

I appreciate this thread 'cause I've been worrying about the same topic.

I bought a Kimber 22 conversion and swapped out the sights so they are identical to my SS gun.

I bought this because I have a 6 acre back yard and can literally walk out there and shoot the 22 any time I want as long as I want..... rather than drive to a range.

I have found that my first shot on target has improved a great deal...(both in speed and accuracy)... but when I pull out the .45 my transitions may actually be getting worse.... It's not uncommon for me to shoot 40 straight perfect (two to the body and one to the head drills).... with the 22... then try the same thing the following day and end up with a lot of one Alpha, one Charlie, and one Mike scores. I'm guessing that I'm not tracking the sights under recoil with the .45..... because you really don't have to with the 22????

With the 22 I have been only using targets which are 25% of full size at close distances... could that be an issue too???

Mark

Edited March 8, 2010 by MichiganShootist

[CHA-LEE]

Yeah, the Go Karts they "Practice" with are not the cheap-o go karts that you an I are willing to pay to rent, or are even able to rent at a local track. I am sure you can rent a high end shifter cart, but you are going to pay big bucks doing it. Even then, if you asked each one of those F1 drivers if they would get the most out of practicing with an F1 car verses a go kart, I think the answer would be obvious.

The point here is that if they had the choice to practice with their real cars, they would. They are simply forced to run the go karts due to their F1 cars not being available.

In shooting, no one is "Forced" to shoot a .22 in practice. They choose to shoot a .22 in practice for whatever reason.

Edited March 8, 2010 by CHA-LEE

[Flexmoney]

That 87T is a great shooting gun. The King of Dry-Fire (Steve Anderson) has one. It's a blast to shoot. Maybe fashion an over-travel stop and put that tool to work.

Shooting .22 rimfire will keep you a bit more honest than dry-fire will. You have to have the visual patience and the follow through...both of which are so easy to white-wash over in df. Even the stance gets a little more honest. Plus, you get out to the range to get in a good habit.

The stuff that I really like working on is the vision. Locating the target and then the sights. Driving the gun with the vision. And, you can work quite a bit on movement as well, and get real feedback on the clock.

I never worked much on draws and reloads with the .22, so it didn't really matter to me if I was using the AA kit for my Glock or if I was using my Colt Match Target or a Buckmark. And, variety...it can help you to notice different things.

[Flyin40]

I appreciate this thread 'cause I've been worrying about the same topic.

I bought a Kimber 22 conversion and swapped out the sights so they are identical to my SS gun.

I bought this because I have a 6 acre back yard and can literally walk out there and shoot the 22 any time I want as long as I want..... rather than drive to a range.

I have found that my first shot on target has improved a great deal...(both in speed and accuracy)... but when I pull out the .45 my transitions may actually be getting worse.... It's not uncommon for me to shoot 40 straight perfect (two to the body and one to the head drills).... with the 22... then try the same thing the following day and end up with a lot of one Alpha, one Charlie, and one Mike scores. I'm guessing that I'm not tracking the sights under recoil with the .45..... because you really don't have to with the 22????

With the 22 I have been only using targets which are 25% of full size at close distances... could that be an issue too???

Mark

Mark,

Take a look at post #13 again. Just don't go out and start shooting without a goal. You may be trying to shoot 2 to the body and 1 to the head but what are you trying to accomplish? Set up specific drills you want to work on. This is just like shooting full power ammo. You can go out and shoot 1000 rounds a accomplish absolutely nothing. When your shooting your 22 it sounds like your telling yourself you don't have to see the sights. So after shooting the 22 and not watching the sights you pick up your 45 and guess what?? You don't watch the sights.

One thing I found to help is make the 22 targets hard. I use these for practice. You can use pasters on them to.

http://www.cedhk.com/shop/products/Airsoft-IPSC-%7B47%7D-IDPA-Paper-Targets.html

I also just print off a bunch of targets and use a black marker to add hardcover or throw on a no-shoot. Make them hard as hell maybe only leaving the top 10% of the Azone available at about 7 or 10yds. It will make you use your sights on the 22 and teach visual patience.

Just make up a drill, keep it simple and short. Since you have a back yard is should be easy. Maybe 3 targets and 6 shots. Make the shots hard and practice at least 3 seperate times before using your 45. I would shoot a couple hundred rounds each session. The only thing your trying to do is watch the sights and call your shot. Then go back to your 45 and do the same thing, watch your sights and call your shot. See how it goes. Just keep in mind that just because you have a 22 that it is practice for a match. You have to that mind set. A 22 is alot of fun and it makes people forget they are practicing instead of just putting rounds downrange. How many times have you picked up a 22 and by the 2nd mag you dumped the entire mag into the target as fast as you can??

Just remember your not trying to duplicate your 45. Your working on vision.

Flyin

[MichiganShootist]

Good feedback..... Thanks.

[Jim Norman]

If you want to sell that T-87, I might just be interested. I have one and a T-89 as well, but I like having a back-up. My daughter shoots this gun in Steel matches. So do I and both shooting one gun is OK now, but as she gets older, she will need her 'Own'.

Jim