Vibrate clean finished LSWC rounds

[wisconsin]

I've read past posts on cleaning finished round in our case cleaners but all the responses seem to be geared for jacketed ammo. Since lead bullets use wax type lube, even keeping your die clean of excess lube some still gets onto the case. In my case I'm using a RRA wadgun. Any excess bullet lube on the finished case will FF sometimes because of the tighter tol. in the gun. Soooo does anyone here run there finished lead rounds through their case vibrators? I tierd of cleaning the finished rounds with a 3M pad. Jeff

[BMartens]

Lot of folks have been doing this for years. Powder companies tell you not to tumble loaded rounds because it can damage the coatings applied to the powders and change the ballistic charactersitics. Safety people tell you not to do it because of the possibility of setting off a round in the tumbler. Just about any literature you read from any company that has a legal staff says no. But, lots of folks do it every day. My suggestion, only tumble the loaded rounds long enough to get the lube off of them. I never run mine in the tumbler for more than 15-30 minutes max. That has always been enough to get them clean. I don't have a legal department.

[craigulator]

I've seen tests done for over 200hrs on loaded rounds in a tumbler, it made no difference to the structure of the powder whatsoever, after years of hearing how it will change the chemical makeup of the powder, rub off special coatings or set off bullets...the tests proved that none of this was true or proven.

[limited 10]

I tumble in walnut shells, with about 2 tlbs. of mineral spirits added, for about 30 min.

Works great for me....

[GrumpyOne]

Lead though, right? I tumbled some hard cast lead one time, it cleaned the cases up nicely, but turned the lead some sort of dull finish, looked strange. That and it loaded up all of my media with lead....Jacketed, no problems with tumbling them.

[DougCarden]

Nufinish polish in the media, capful of laquer thinner, run for 2 min., then add ammo. Run tumbler for 10-15min. new shiny ammo.

IF you are loading JHPS......use really big corn cob media, nothing that will fit the hollowpoint....very important.....

DougC

[usmc1974]

I just dump about 200 in an old tub sock, pour on a good amount of 91% alcohol add a small amount of mineral spirits (nail polish remover). Shake'em back and forth make sure they all get rolled around in the spirits real good. Then I put them on a big towel and shake'em dry. all nice clean pretty (lead and brass) sounds like a lot of trouble but it ain't. Whole thing takes about 5 minutes.

[freakshow10mm]

Here is a series of responses by the powder companies when asked about tumbling live ammo. Notice half say it's ok for a short period of time and the others say no, but haven't done any tests so it's theoretical opinion. Also note that part of the powder manufacturing process is to tumble the compounds to mix them. Also note the example of all the vibrations the ammunition endures from factory to warehouse to distributor to Army base, plane, soldier, during battle then finally into the chamber and is fired safely. That alone is magnitudes more vibration than a quick 15-20 minutes in the tumbler to get lube off or give a final polish.

This is not my information but was posted on another forum during a similar thread debate. I can't recall the username of the guy, but credit is due to him.

My Question

A discussion within a Reloading Forum which I frequent has led me to ask

a question from the experts regarding Tumbling Reloaded Rifle cases.

What is the stance of your company regarding this practice?

Does tumbling loaded rounds effect the powders inside?

Are some powders affected more so than others? Example. Are the Stick or extruded

powders effected in the same manner as a Ball powder or flake type

powder?

Any input you might be able to give me would be greatly appreciated and shared within my reloading circle.

David Owens

Alliant Powders Response 08/04/2009

We do not recommend tumbling loaded ammo. We are aware that this has

been done at times but it makes us very uncomfortable from a safety

standpoint. We have not conducted any testing to see if it negatively

affects the powder. Thanks for your note and have a nice day.

Ben Amonette

Consumer Service Manager

Alliant Powder Company

Hogdon Powder

David,

OK, here is the answer. DO NOT TUMBLE LOADED AMMO. The tumbling will cause degradation of the powder. This will increase the burn speed of the powder raising pressures to what may be high enough levels to damage firearms or people.

It really is this simple.

Have tests been done? Yes, tests on powders have been done in regard to degradation by vibration. Here’s what we learned, DO NOT TUMBLE LOADED AMMO.

The longer the ammo is tumbled, the worse the problem. No, We cannot tell you what length of time would be safe to tumble ammo.

Here is what we also know about the internet. There are always those people who portray themselves as experts due to the anonymity of the internet. Our responses are limited by the truth, theirs are limited by their imagination. We try very hard not to get involved in arguments on the net because of this. IF people really want the answers, they should contact us personally rather than trusting a message forum on the internet.

I hope this answers your question to your satisfaction

Mike Daly

Customer Satisfaction Manager

Hogdon Powders

Ramshot's response

David,

Powders are blended vigorously for hours during manufacturing; sometimes it’s even vibrated and shifted for periods of time.

The powder cannot be affected by tumbling inside a round were the movement is limited.

However, the danger lies in the primer, which can be activated because the brittle nature of the primer composition.

It is therefore not recommended to tumble/vibrate primed cases or ammunition.

Regards

Johan Loubser

Ballistician

Ramshot/Accurate Powders

Tel: (406) 234 04 22 email: johan@ramshot.com

Lapua/Vhitavouri

Tumbling loaded cartridges

Tuesday, August 11, 2009 10:44 AM

"Kevin S Thomas" <ksthomas@lapua.us>

Dear David,

Adam forwarded your inquiry to me, and I'll be happy to answer. The short answer is, no, it's not going to cause a problem, but I do want to cover a few things just to be safe. The slightly longer answer is yes, it could. Tumbling of loaded ammunition is a common practice for ammo manufacturers, and it's done all the time. The key is, they don't do it for very long; usually nothing more than required to remove any traces of lube from the loaded ammunition, or whatever else may need to be accomplished. I normally do this with large lots of pistol ammunition if I've bulk loaded them on a progressive press. Again, the key is, they're run for a very short period of time, never more than 10 minutes. You're obviously familiar with powder "construction" and the application of deterrent coatings such as graphite or dinitrotoluene (DNT), and I assume your concern stems from the possible removal of or damage to this coating. Actually, this is precisely how many of these coatings are applied to begin with, and the powder goes through several tumblings during its production. In short, damaging it via this same process is fairly unlikely, especially once the powder is contained in a loaded cartridge.

This said, anything can be overdone. Tumbling cartridges for an excessive length of time, or in too vigorous a tumbler could be detrimental. I can't hazard a guess as to how long this may take, as I suspect there will be several variables coming into play. The bottom line is, minimum tumbling, in as gentle a process as will accomplish the task. For my own loadings, as I said before, I use ten minutes as my own personal maximum, in a vibratory tumbler. Loaded cartridges will likely see much more severe treatment than this in the field (bouncing around in SUVs off road, etc.) so I personally regard this as an acceptable limit.

Longer tumbling times and/or exceptionally rough tumbling methods could, theoretically, create problems. These may relate to the deterrent coatings, or to the possibility of external damage . The potential for accidental ignition via a primer being impacted by an FMJ, that sort of thing. I've never heard of such an occurrence, but I wouldn't discount it, either. The key here is some moderation and common sense.

I hope this answers your concerns, but if you'd like to address anything more specifically, I'd be happy to discuss this with you further. Please feel free to contact us again, anytime. As always, we're more than happy to be of service.

Sincerely,

Kevin Thomas

Lapua USA

I also was very pleased with the quick response and level of service I recieved from both Vhitavouri/Lapua as well as most of the others.

I hope this might be of interest and of help to others.

[Rolex]

I did some 230GR LRN in my Dillon. Did NOT like what the lead

looked like after just 10-15 minutes.

But it works just great with my FMJ loads!

[DWFAN]

Tumbling my loaded rounds makes the lead look cleaner and more shiny. The brass is smoother and has no lube on it. I'd rather tumble loaded rounds for 10-15 mins, than clean my dies every 50-100 rounds.

Thanks for sharing that post freakshow.. I agree that 10-15mins in a tumbler is probably way less than the vibrations of shipping.

Edited March 2, 2010 by DWFAN

[glockwerkes]

I've tried tumbling loaded rounds (.45 RNL) and was not pleased with the results. I was searching for the exact same solution, how to get rid of the excess lube, but it just didn't work for me. Jacketed bullets worked great. I finally went back to giving each round with a quick wipe with a terry cloth towel. It really wasn't the bullet lube that was an issue, it was the Dillon spray case lube that irritated me. I'm going back to Hornady One Shot for that reason. Tumbling removed the case lube, but the lead bullets looked funky. And if there was excess bullet lube somewhere on the bullet, the media I use just wasn't taking it off.

[Corey]

what about tumbling moly SWC (precisions, BBIs, etc). im assuming itd take the moly coating off?

[DougCarden]

Ten minutes or less won't take the moly off and takes the lube off just fine.....

DougC

[kmitchl]

I've tumbled moly coated bullets. Doesn't affect the coating. With either lead or moly I limit the tumble time to 10-15 minutes.