Round Dumping

[xcelr8n]

Like Matt Burkett says, I ask the RO how he/she wants it shot, and do it more efficiently than the rest.

No offense to Mr. Burkett but telling the shooters how to shoot a stage is a pet peeve of mine. Too often SOs will say, "First do this, then do that, then do this."

Shooters should know the rules. A COF is like a problem. The timer beeps and the shooter needs to solve the problem. Knowing how to shoot a COF is an important part of the game that needs to be learned in addition to shooting fast and accurately.

[Chills1994]

I am of the opinion that if MD's or SO's put a little more thought into the stage design process, the temptation to round dump just won't be there. Or if it is there, the actual act of dumping the round somehow ends up being self-penalizing.

If that all makes sense.

Jane has started her own rules forum somewhere else on the web. I'm thinking that she was thinking there was a rule book revision in the works.

I would like to see that rule go away...in my opinion.

[bkeeler]

Like Matt Burkett says, I ask the RO how he/she wants it shot, and do it more efficiently than the rest.

No offense to Mr. Burkett but telling the shooters how to shoot a stage is a pet peeve of mine. Too often SOs will say, "First do this, then do that, then do this."

Shooters should know the rules. A COF is like a problem. The timer beeps and the shooter needs to solve the problem. Knowing how to shoot a COF is an important part of the game that needs to be learned in addition to shooting fast and accurately.

Doesn't the Stage Procedure pretty much tell the shooter how he needs to solve the problem?

Example:STAGE PROCEDURE: On the audible start signal turn, draw and engage T1 with

retention with three shots while retreating to P2. Engage T2-T5 using tactical priority with

two shots each. Move to P3 and engage the steel plates (in any order) before engaging T6

with two headshots.

[Flexmoney]

Here is my inner Q&A (pardon me if my terminology is a bit off, as it is MY inner dialog ) ...

Q: Why dump rounds.

A: Because it is a faster tactic to do a slide lock reload.

Q: How is it faster to take an extra shot (split time), to allow for a slide lock reload.

A: A non slide lock reload requires the retention of the expelled magazine. Which takes more time.

Q: Why do a retention reload?

A: It is required by the rules.

Q: Why?

A: Retaining ammo is deemed a good tactic.

Q: Is it always a good tactic to retain ammo?

A: Arguably...speed and accuracy can be a higher priority, at times.

Q: So, why mandate a retention tactic at all times other than slide lock?

A: Hmmm...perhaps to beat home the tactic.

Q: If there are times when that tactic is not the ideal, should it be the default/standard?

A: If it is not mandated, then the competitors won't do it.

Q: Why won't they do it?

A: Because it is a slow tactic.

Q: Again, why do a slow tactic ?

A: To force/teach/train the shooters to retain ammo.

Q: How is that working out?

A: Ahhh...they just dump rounds. They have learned to burn the extra ammo, along with wasting shots and time.

Q: Is there any other way to get the functionality of the retention message to the shooters, without it having to be the standard?

A: Hmmm...why, yes there it, actually.

Q: How so?

A: We could just mandate it as part of the scenario in the cof's that we wish to use to test it, instead of having it be the standard.

Looks like bkeeler beat me to my conclusion...

Doesn't the Stage Procedure pretty much tell the shooter how he needs to solve the problem?

[Chills1994]

Depends on how well the stage briefings are written.

Not to drift this thread...but IIRC, I went to one major match where they included a new phraseology to the effect of "all reloads must be started and completed behind cover"....which again IIRC is totally different from how the IDPA rulebook states it ...which again IIRC, is "if it's good enough [position] to shoot from, it's good enough to reload from."

[Chills1994]

@ bruce and Flex... along the same lines with my beef of poorly written proscribing like IDPA CoF's.... my other beef is about the 20 different combinations of range commands I have had to endure over the years. If you're really bored, listen to my posercam vids sometime. don't watch them. just listen to them..."Shooter indicates ready...Going HOT!" This part should be a thread of its own, but I do like how USPSA tests and re-tests its RO's on a yearly basis.

@ Flex...the other thing about reloading with retention is that the IDPA rulebook states that if you have an empty mag but the gun is NOT at slide lock, you still have to retain the mag.

To me, in my opinion...that is just dumb.

[Duane Thomas]

One thing I've never understood about this whole "I'm not a mindreader" argument about how hard it is to determine whether someone was round dumping or making up a shot - and I assure everyone I'm not being sarcastic here, I'm really wondering - as the SO, why not just ASK the shooter? Then they have a choice, either own up or lie. Most people, I am firmly convinced, would own up.

[Duane Thomas]

No offense to Mr. Burkett but telling the shooters how to shoot a stage is a pet peeve of mine. Too often SOs will say, "First do this, then do that, then do this."

What I do, if I think there's going to be a possible problem with the way I'm planning on shooting the stage, is to tell the SO what I have in mind and ask them, "Do you have a problem with that?" Sometimes they say, "No, why would I, that's perfectly legal." Sometimes they say, "You could, but I'd give you a procedural." At which point I say, "Thanks for clearing that up," and change my game plan. No biggie.

[GForceLizard]

2009 IDPA SC State Championship - EOTAC Clinic - Bob Vogel 1

At 3:00

His walkthough plan was to take 3 shots at the last paper target instead of 2 to go to slide lock. When he shot the demonstration he changed and shot the popper with 3. His splits are fast enough how you say he was dumping when it could be he's just fast enough to want 3 shots on the popper to get the activator moving sooner. My opinion is that his plan to shoot 3 to get slide lock on the last target at the end of the 2nd array is round dumping.

This clears up nothing. Just an example.

[salilus]

I have only enforced this rule one time. After a stage the shooter comes up to me, the SO that just finished running him, and said "See what I did over there I shot three on that target so I could slide lock on the way to that barricade." He was proud and bragging.

[Bill Nesbitt]

I dumped rounds at the 2004 Indiana State match and I still feel the shame.

The important thing is.... Did you win?????

No, I didn't win. Karma, don't ya know.

[Boats]

Just so I understand Round Dumping

I spent last year shooting CDR were every shot has to count now back to the SSP for 2010 season. Over 60 eyes don't see long or hard cover small targets so good. With extra rounds avalable to use as insurance on Vickers count stages with the Auto pistol will sometimes put one extra on the target. Thats one extra shot not emptying the magazine on targets already neturalized. I don't go so far as to calculate were I want to go to slide lock and expect if I tried it would go wrong with me miscounting. Would utilizing Vickers count with insurance shots would be called as round dumping ?

Seems to me the time spent dumping rounds so you come out from cover with a full mag is about a trade off compared to taking two sight pictures, out from cover shoot go back reload and pop out and shoot again. How long does a proper re-load from cover take compared to running 2 or 3 or more rounds through the gun. You still have to re-load dumped round or not.

Round dumping sounds to me like bad match management.

Boats

[benny hill]

Hey guys, it's a game with a score card. Do everything you can to win in the white & grey area's but stay out of the black area's.

[Steve J]

Boats, you have it right. Utilizing Vickers count rules to take legitimate make up shots or insurance shots on movers, distant targets, etc. is perfectly legal. It's when you calculate and take an extra shot to time your slide lock reload or to avoid having to do a RWR that it's round dumping and illegal.

IDPA doesn't have a thick paragraph and verse rulebook like USPSA has. It is very much an honor system sport. In an earlier post, Chad (1973) said he checked himself and didn't do it because he was a conformist. What he meant was that he checked himself to honorably follow the rules.

There was a stage at a regional I shot in Tulsa a couple of years ago where SSP and ESP had to do an RWR before leaving cover in order to completely engage several targets on the move (required) without running dry (also required). Every last ESP/SSP shooter on my squad (I shot CDP), about 8 total dumped an extra round so they would go to slide lock and avoid the slower RWR. It was painfully obvious, but the penalties were not called. If I had been the CSO on that stage, I would have waited until the squad was finished, then gathered all the shooters and their score sheets and awarded a procedural to everyone. If that happened in two or more bays an FTDR would be in order.

[Boats]

Just doing this in my head no timers the next calcuation is

Come from cover shoot to slide lock pop back behind cover reload lean out again and take a 2nd sight picture vs Tac Reload behind cover lean out and and engage with one sight picture.

Seems to me that's a decesion to make depending on your individual skill. Most people in our club use the slide lock, back to cover, back out to shoot method. However if the tac re-load is done properly. drawing the fresh mag on the move but not removing the partal mag until you are behind the barricade, would seem the way to go, and faster than trying to dump rounds anyway.

Might want to time it some in pratice.

Boats

[xcelr8n]

No offense to Mr. Burkett but telling the shooters how to shoot a stage is a pet peeve of mine. Too often SOs will say, "First do this, then do that, then do this."

What I do, if I think there's going to be a possible problem with the way I'm planning on shooting the stage, is to tell the SO what I have in mind and ask them, "Do you have a problem with that?" Sometimes they say, "No, why would I, that's perfectly legal." Sometimes they say, "You could, but I'd give you a procedural." At which point I say, "Thanks for clearing that up," and change my game plan. No biggie.

That's perfect. I do the same.

[xcelr8n]

There was a stage at a regional I shot in Tulsa a couple of years ago where SSP and ESP had to do an RWR before leaving cover in order to completely engage several targets on the move (required) without running dry (also required). Every last ESP/SSP shooter on my squad (I shot CDP), about 8 total dumped an extra round so they would go to slide lock and avoid the slower RWR. It was painfully obvious, but the penalties were not called. If I had been the CSO on that stage, I would have waited until the squad was finished, then gathered all the shooters and their score sheets and awarded a procedural to everyone. If that happened in two or more bays an FTDR would be in order.

Why the procedural and not go straight with the FTDR? Wouldn't the rules require FTDR?

IMHO, I'd give the penalty right away and not wait for everyone to finish.

[Steve J]

The problem is that the penalty is hard to call. The first guy might have made a legitimate make up shot. How do you know? But everyone? Nope. That's a pattern. In the example I quoted, I think an FTDR would be warranted, but not upfront. Just like your equipment check. Illegal gear or placement - fix it before the match and no harm, no foul. Fix it for the equipment check, then go back to the illegal configuration to shoot > FTDR or DQ. MD's choice.

Now going into that stage, if the MD had instructed his SOs to warn the shooters in the briefing that shooting to slide lock to avoid the RWR would incur an FTDR, that's another story. BUT, as someone else noted. It could be completely avoided by better stage design. Write in a mandatory RWR for everyone one or off the clock, and the temptation to break the rules goes away.

[steel1212]

2009 IDPA SC State Championship - EOTAC Clinic - Bob Vogel 1

At 3:00

His walkthough plan was to take 3 shots at the last paper target instead of 2 to go to slide lock. When he shot the demonstration he changed and shot the popper with 3. His splits are fast enough how you say he was dumping when it could be he's just fast enough to want 3 shots on the popper to get the activator moving sooner. My opinion is that his plan to shoot 3 to get slide lock on the last target at the end of the 2nd array is round dumping.

This clears up nothing. Just an example.

Not to call Bob out or anything but did he just say he put 3 on that target so that he would be at slide lock, then back it up by saying so that he was sure he would have down zero hits?

Ok I just watched the WHOLE video. He says he is going to put 3 on the paper, but then puts 3 on the popper so that he isn't dumping on the paper.

Let me me bring up a question here. In IDPA its shoot steel until it falls right? Well one good hit will make it fall, wouldn't 3 on it be dumping as well?

Edited February 26, 2010 by steel1212

[salilus]

I was going through some of the related videos. I can see two dumps on this video.

[Steve J]

2009 IDPA SC State Championship - EOTAC Clinic - Bob Vogel 1

At 3:00

His walkthough plan was to take 3 shots at the last paper target instead of 2 to go to slide lock. When he shot the demonstration he changed and shot the popper with 3. His splits are fast enough how you say he was dumping when it could be he's just fast enough to want 3 shots on the popper to get the activator moving sooner. My opinion is that his plan to shoot 3 to get slide lock on the last target at the end of the 2nd array is round dumping.

This clears up nothing. Just an example.

Not to call Bob out or anything but did he just say he put 3 on that target so that he would be at slide lock, then back it up by saying so that he was sure he would have down zero hits?

Ok I just watched the WHOLE video. He says he is going to put 3 on the paper, but then puts 3 on the popper so that he isn't dumping on the paper.

Let me me bring up a question here. In IDPA its shoot steel until it falls right? Well one good hit will make it fall, wouldn't 3 on it be dumping as well?

Yes it would be dumping as well if the intent is to go to slide lock for an advantage. Just to clarify, a target steel or paper has been "engaged" when the required number of rounds has been fired at it. After that you can move on to the next target. Hits, misses, neutralizing doesn't come into play until you score the stage.

[Brian Gonsalves]

Just doing this in my head no timers the next calcuation is

Come from cover shoot to slide lock pop back behind cover reload lean out again and take a 2nd sight picture vs Tac Reload behind cover lean out and and engage with one sight picture.

Seems to me that's a decesion to make depending on your individual skill. Most people in our club use the slide lock, back to cover, back out to shoot method. However if the tac re-load is done properly. drawing the fresh mag on the move but not removing the partal mag until you are behind the barricade, would seem the way to go, and faster than trying to dump rounds anyway.

Might want to time it some in pratice.

Boats

You can leave out the "pop behind cover, lean out again" part. From Page 43 of the Rulebook:

If a competitor shoots to slide lock with targets

still remaining to be engaged from a specific firing point, the

competitor does NOT have to duck behind cover while reloading,

if you are using cover adequately while firing it will also be

adequate cover while reloading. Keeping an eye on your threat

zone while reloading is a sound tactic in the real world.

I also agree that it can be hard to call. Asking the shooter why he took extra shots does sometimes work.

However, I have seen some blatant examples of "round dumping" not be called, because SO's are "afraid" to call it and start the debate. Here's an example I witnessed at a championship match. The stage had you engaging targets while moving to the right side of a barricade (wall), then you moved left along the barricade (wall) to engage targets on the left side. I saw quite a few shooters dump a 3rd shot on the last target I assume so they would be a slidelock. However there were 3 that actually fired that 3rd shot without looking at the last target. They had made the first 2 shots, started turning to move down the wall. One had went so far as too let go with with weakhand and dump a shot stronghand, his body had moved past the point that even if he had looked toward the target he couldn't see it. Seemed like an easy call to me, but it didn't happen.

Edited February 26, 2010 by Brian Gonsalves

[Strick]

Just doing this in my head no timers the next calcuation is

Come from cover shoot to slide lock pop back behind cover reload lean out again and take a 2nd sight picture vs Tac Reload behind cover lean out and and engage with one sight picture.

Seems to me that's a decesion to make depending on your individual skill. Most people in our club use the slide lock, back to cover, back out to shoot method.

Boats

There is no poping in and out from cover. If you are shooting properly from cover then there is no reason to move from that position to perform a reload. Just thought I would throw that out there.

Again round dumping is a judgment call and that is why it is impossible to enforce effectively. I am big IDPA fan but the dumping rule is just another grey area of the rulebook (along with a few others) that need clarification or removal. This isn't figure skating and shooters should be scored not judged.

I will admit that I have round dumped I have also fired extra shots to cover what I thought was a miss (sometimes it needed sometimes not), and I have fired an extra shot on a longer target to not have to reload on the same target and not take 2 sight pictures. Does that make me a bad person, judge if you want but that is what about 90% of the shooters I have watched do and is basically part of the game.

[Duane Thomas]

Come from cover shoot to slide lock pop back behind cover reload lean out again and take a 2nd sight picture vs Tac Reload behind cover lean out and and engage with one sight picture.

As has been mentioned, you don't have to pull back fully behind cover to reload in IDPA, you just have to "use cover". In IDPA, per the Rule Book, you are sufficiently utilizing cover if 100 percent of your lower body, and at least 50 perfect of your upper body, is behind cover.

[MikeFoley]

It is OK if you miss the popper first, then you aren't really dumping, right?