Brazos Pro Sx

[XRe]

So, the part you all really care about first....

You might remember the discussion I had around testing new equipment a couple of years ago when I got my first Brazos gun - a Pro Series 5". I had an awesome opportunity to test several different configurations in a head to head "shoot out" that allowed me to assess which gun worked best for me on several different types of courses of fire. At the time, the Pro Sx was definitely the fastest gun for me on pure index stages - Steel Challenge stuff, most notably. But, it wasn't the best for me on the move, and in some types of typical USPSA stage situations. In those cases, the 5" gun I ended up with outshone the short gun. So, I decided on the long gun, as it directly suited my primary game best.

Bob and I took a lot of interesting info away from that effort, though. We knew the Pro Sx pointed more instinctually for me - what we needed was a way to bring it's recoil profile closer in line to the 5" gun without sacrificing reliability in any way. Bob evaluated a number of potential changes over the intervening two years, and presented me with the ones that seemed to work along the way. These were not major revelations, of course, but there are some interesting changes in the gun you see pictured above from where the standard Pro Sx was when I did the original test. Notably, the one external change is a switch to a custom STI TruBor barrel that Bob cuts the Brazos Thundercomp SX style compensator into, rendering it shorter and lighter than a standard TruBor barrel - and also making it shorter and lighter than the previous BarSto barrel and Brazos comp combo - with no sacrifice in accuracy.

After the shooting season last year, it was time to re-evaluate. This time, we did an abbreviated test - shooting just two guns side by side. My Pro Series 5" and Bob's personal Pro Sx. This time, even though Bob's gun was not set up for my hands, the Pro Sx bested the 5" gun for me in every drill. To me, there's a large amount of difference between the guns - the 5" gun shoots smooth and flat, and you can tailor the amount of flip vs. the hit in the hand by changing the recoil spring. Flatter equals a harder smack. The Pro Sx, on the other hand, shoots fast. It flips a little bit more than the 5" gun did with a light recoil spring, but with a firmer left hand grip, the gun stays right where it needs to be. However, it's definitely a more demanding gun to shoot. It's analogous to going from something like a BMW M5 into a Ferrari - one is a luxury, plush, high performance ride that drives smooth, but can be taken for granted.... the other is light, fast, and has an attitude, and you can't take anything for granted with it, but if you stay sharp you can pilot it quite a bit faster than the luxury ride.

We left one last thing to test for when the gun was built - I had Bob build this one identical to his gun... except I had him leave the ports out. So, we could A/B the two, and really determine what difference the ports make in this configuration. When I got up there to take delivery on the new machine, we chrono'ed Bob's ammo, and discovered that it was quite hot in the new gun. So, we dialed in a load and made up 300 or so rounds of ammo specifically for the new gun (man, a 1050 with a bullet feeder is a luxury!), and headed down to the range. It didn't take long. In fact, I shot about 300 rounds between the two guns mostly as a formality... sort of a "just to make sure". But I knew at the end of the first drill with both guns. I looked at Bob, and said... "Ports." He said, "Really? Are you sure? That fast?". I said, "Yeah. That fast. Ports." "Yeah, that's about how fast it takes me each time, too...." So, Bob pulled out his Dremel and....

You'll see a lot of controversy over barrel ports on this forum (and you'll see people mis-label everything as "Poppleholes"... "Poppleholes" is a name Bob gave to a specific port configuration on his guns that he developed for Adam Popplewell... just so's ya know...). You'll even see people say "ports make no difference in how the gun flips" (I won't get into why an absolute statement like that is meaningless). Unless people have done the A/B comparison between otherwise identical hardware, it's very hard to make an accurate evaluation - and even then, it's only valid for the configuration they're looking at using the loads they were shooting. With that in mind... here's what I can tell you about ports with this gun...

Without ports, the gun would tend to leave somewhat erratically, and would tend to return to zero on an elliptical path... and then drop low left, and then back up. This made the gun hard for me to time - if I tried to drive with a moving sight picture, I'd inevitably end up with a bias toward low-left with my hits. Shooting Triple Six on Classics, it was enough to pull 50% of my hits into the C-zone at 7 yards. If I really pulled back and was emphatic about the dot, it got better but significantly slower. Either way, my 7 yard Bill Drill was 2-3 tenths slower than the ported gun and only got slower from there if I insured all A zone hits. Normally, you'd want to assume that I was jerking the trigger, or otherwise over muscling the gun - however, if I immediately picked up the ported gun and shot the same drill, the hits were all in a fist sized group in the A-zone... and fast.

The ported gun did not appear to shoot visibly flatter from behind the gun - but it felt smoother in the hand (as if the slide were on bearings while it cycled), it left consistently the same, and just returned back to zero without any additional movement. It was much easier to time, as it was a lot more predictable in it's movement. And, it didn't seem to leave the point of aim quite so quickly - this is important, as it indicates what's really happening - the ports are keeping the gun more stable in the early part of recoil, making it easier to call the shot, and for your eye to follow the dot in recoil. There are obviously other effects on the gun's movement (see above), but this is really an important concept - see, the ports are really a small factor in how much the gun really flips (the recoil spring, firing pin stop, mainspring, weight of the reciprocating mass... these things have a huge effect on flip). The ports actually make the gun more user friendly for the shooting, at the expense of a little more noise and concussion.

So, we headed back to the shop, did the set up, and cut the ports. The ammo lost about 20 fps - which is exactly what Bob expected. I ran a couple of mags through it and then sighted it in again. We loaded up more ammo, so that I was still shooting 170 PF stuff on the range, and proceeded to put another 500 rounds through the gun. After cutting the ports, the gun behaved exactly like Bob's personal gun. I'd expected some of the feel to be due to Bob's gun being well broken in, but ... the ports really make that much difference in this configuration.

Final thought... how'd the ports affect accuracy? Not at all... After burning up all that ammo, I double checked zero and shot a 5 shot group. I was kind of beat, and I got a little itchy on the trigger and had a called flyer out to the right, about an inch away (this is at 35 yards). Here's the group I shot:

Bob then rubbed it in... He had sighted the gun in that morning before we started, and shot this group on the same target:

Bastard

I can safely say that the ports had no effect on the accuracy of the barrel....

[al503]

Nice review. I have an SX with a slightly extended dust cover with the barsto/comp combo and a lightened up full size with the trubor. Both have their pros and cons. I'm having a hard time figuring out which one I like better so I can order a matching backup.

The blue looks awesome. Bob is doing up a limited gun in blue for me right now.

[Bigpops]

Xre,

Awesome review. Bob should post this on the Brazo's site. Thank you for the details and explainations. It clears some things up for me.

So who was the lucky one to purchase Bob's personal gun this year? (insert two pointing thumbs on one smiling face)

Edited February 24, 2010 by Bigpops

[CocoBolo]

XRE - Thanks for sharing your unique expierence. I always say a mind is like a parachute, not worth anything if its not open. You opened up my mind to the ports, and to the shorty both of which I had marked off my list. Earlier this year I passed on a Pro Sx but after reading this I am really regretting that decision.

[edwin garcia]

Dave,

How many ports did you end up with ?

Edwin

[edu jimenez]

hi

very nice.that color is black ???

regatds

eduardo

[ogiebb]

Very Nice review thank you...

[XRe]

How many ports did you end up with ?

4

very nice.that color is black ???

It's technically a blued finish, but visually, yeah, it's basically black.

[Kevin Spencer]

Are you still shooting Super or did you switch to Super Comp?

Kevin

[XRe]

Are you still shooting Super or did you switch to Super Comp?

I've always shot Super Comp

[lcs]

Dave,

Can you post a picture of the ports (4) configuration ?

Thanks

[CocoBolo]

Now I read this a couple more times and I just have one question.

What size dot do you have on that gun that lets you call a shot within a 1/2" at 35 yards?

At 35 yards my dot covers the entire head and laps over on the sides.

[XRe]

What size dot do you have on that gun that lets you call a shot within a 1/2" at 35 yards?

At 35 yards my dot covers the entire head and laps over on the sides.

Which shot are you talking about? The called flyer, or the rest of the group? The flyer is actually more like an inch out, not a 1/2". I'll address both potential questions?

Shooting a small group with a dot at long distance doesn't require a small dot - what it requires is a consistent aiming point and a solid rest. If you have a consistent aiming point that you line up exactly the same way with the dot each time, the gun will be pointed to the same spot every time... Regardless of whether you have a 2 MOA or a 16 MOA dot in the gun. One thing you do have to be careful about with just about every red dot sight (minus maybe an Aimpoint) is that you need to be certain that the dot is centered in the lens for each shot, as well - otherwise, you'll run into parallax issues (the first person that tries to tell me that a Doctor doesn't have parallax is getting slapped ). That's how we're shooting 1/2" groups at 35 yards (well, that, and a very well built gun with an accurate barrel, of course!)

Now... the called flyer. Like any other shot, you can get feedback from the way the dot moves, the way your trigger pull feels, how the gun feels, etc, and know that the shot did not know where you aimed it. It's the same as calling any other shot. Many times, you can see how much the dot moves vs. your consistent aiming point, and make a pretty solid assessment of where the shot went. In this case, I just said "I pulled it right... &$!@%*(#&" (or something like that). I actually thought it was further out, based on how it felt, and how the dot moved right as the gun was going off. I didn't say "It's an inch to the right" - I just knew it wasn't on the group. I would've made the same call regardless of dot size.

So... what size dot are you running, Ron? Even with a 12 MOA dot, the dot is still fits within the upper A/B at 50 yards, and a 16 fits within the upper A/B at 35.

Oh, yeah - I'm currently running a 6...

[CocoBolo]

XRE - I'm running an 8. And I was just messing with you. But you have once again proven that you are one of the smartest guys I know in the sport. The answer makes perfect sense, the logic is there its methodical, same way you break down a COF.

+1 on the well built gun that makes it possible. I've go one out of 5 that can get close to that on a rest,it is a single stack not an open gun, but I lack you skill to make it happen, even from a rest.

Congrats on the fine gun. Hope to see you at a match soon, sporting your new iron. You are right you know its good when it feels good and you usually know when you blew it when it don't feel right.

I just put a new Brazos Thunder Comp on my old junk yard gun so now its just a matter of working back down to the grip with new parts.

[Corey]

awesome review and one heck of a blaster. I really want to try open but I dont think my wallet can afford it, haha.

Well done!

[JThompson]

This is a great review Dave.... "Popples" I do know the story there, but everyone understands it, so I'll go with it.. when people say it doesn't really make a difference because it's a fine adjustment. What you have with a lot of guns is something that is untuned and runs ruff. Having a gun that's ruff negates, or limits what you would feel. It's like swinging a sledge hammer with a mouse riding on it. With that big ass weight or a ruff gun, do you really feel the weight of that mouse? Get rid of the Sledge hammer and use a jewelers hammer and that same mouse makes a hell of a difference. There is also the shooter factor. If you have a guy that drives a Gremlin and you put him in an Nascar, have him run a few laps and then put in a couple rounds of wedge and run a couple more. That guys is not going to know or feel any difference in that racecar....

Sorry for the bad analogies... I'm silly tired.

JT

Edited February 26, 2010 by JThompson

[XRe]

Sorry for the bad analogies... I'm silly tired.

Some shooters are more sensitive to things than others in general. There are literally some shooters (some really really good shooters, BTW), that you could hand two completely different setups, and they'd shoot both and go "there was something different between those???" Guys over in that part of the continuum aren't going to notice subtle differences in how a gun drives - and in some ways, those guys have an advantage, cause they can generally run anything without being distracted by how the gun is actually moving. Nothing wrong with that. Some guys will notice every little thing, though, and are very discerning - some to the point that they simply can't shoot things that are too far different from a certain range of performance. I'm toward that end of the continuum (though not so far as to be so distracted that I can't shoot something sub-optimal).

I imagine you could make the same distinction in any sport - and probably the same guys would have the same reactions in any sport, too. It's more of a temperament issue than anything else.

[JThompson]

Sorry for the bad analogies... I'm silly tired.

Some shooters are more sensitive to things than others in general. There are literally some shooters (some really really good shooters, BTW), that you could hand two completely different setups, and they'd shoot both and go "there was something different between those???" Guys over in that part of the continuum aren't going to notice subtle differences in how a gun drives - and in some ways, those guys have an advantage, cause they can generally run anything without being distracted by how the gun is actually moving. Nothing wrong with that. Some guys will notice every little thing, though, and are very discerning - some to the point that they simply can't shoot things that are too far different from a certain range of performance. I'm toward that end of the continuum (though not so far as to be so distracted that I can't shoot something sub-optimal).

I imagine you could make the same distinction in any sport - and probably the same guys would have the same reactions in any sport, too. It's more of a temperament issue than anything else.

I've met some of those guys that can run anything... aren't they from The Q Continuum?

[8082011]

Dave...Great Review, great picture of your new Pro Sx and Great use of Photoshop or Aperture (I'm an apple guy) to remove SN

Edited February 27, 2010 by 8082011

[Bluff46]

your gun looks so nice do you have more photos and also bob londrigan's personal gun, i wanna see how master gunsmiths set up their guns

[Pezco]

I pulled the trigger on one of Bob's Pro Sx at the Florida Open this year and can tell you it had the smoothest trigger I have ever felt. Do I need another Open gun?

[XRe]

Do I need another Open gun?

What kind of silly question is that?

Of course you do!

The pic at the top of the thread is the only pic I have of the gun, at the moment. Bob's gun looks, and is set up, almost exactly like my gun. the only differences are the trigger length/shape, my grip is stippled on the front, and his has his normal Ultragrip treatment (I like mine rougher), and mine is serrated under the trigger guard. If we're at a match together, we could literally swap guns, and all the important variables would be the same...

Note that we're both running essentially a standard Pro Sx, so there are a number of people out there with basically this same gun - and you can buy this same gun yourself!

(ETA - I should say that Bob's is a standard Pro Sx, and mine only differs by the grip treatment details I mentioned above)

Edited March 2, 2010 by XRe

[scott e]

Dave a question for you. How come you choose to have the gun build in .38 SC instead of 9 major?

[XRe]

Dave a question for you. How come you choose to have the gun build in .38 SC instead of 9 major?

Because Major 9 sucks

Seriously, though... I've written several times on why I personally feel Major 9 is inferior to .38 Supercomp as a competition caliber for IPSC at major PF. In the end, I can't run the best load for my setup in Major 9 (10 grains of N105 won't even fit in a 9x19 case!). I'm not lazy - I don't mind picking brass. I spend less money on brass than people shooting Major 9, in the end, and I have a caliber that is inherently more reliable in my chosen platform (regardless of how well a Major 9 gun is built, the .38 Super length cartridge is going to have more margin for error, given same build quality).

I don't want to devolve this thread into a Super vs. 9 discussion, though - and I've commented on this in the past in other threads A search should turn them up if you want to read the full discourse...

[rgkeller]

Does Brazos make Open pistols in 9MM?