180 DQ (first time)

[Ray_Z]

I didn't see it either, and I'm pretty anal about the 180. The far left hand target looks like it's right on the 180 but you're a lefty. So retreating from that array would bring your muzzle more down range. The reload was up but not over your head. If their was a problem, I didn't see it.

Edited February 22, 2010 by Ray_Z

[Dan Hefta]

The way that I am seeing this is that the RO(scorekeeper) called muzzle, the CRO was not in the right position to see the 180 infraction and when he herd the RO call muzzle he then made the decision to DQ Spank. Spank must have broke the 180 while inserting his mag (which we could not see on the video).

[sifu128]

Based on that pic... and not seeing the angles well. I wouldn't have yelled muzzle either. It looks to me like the muzzle was forward of 180 while pointing upwards. There is no call on having the muzzle pointing upwards during a reload- that was made very clear during the RO class, unless they break the 180.

Is that an USPSA rule thing? I know in IDPA most SO's will call you on that.

There is no rule in USPSA against pointing the muzzle straight up, as long as you don't break the 180. I'm not sure about IDPA rules.

That really helps. It could also be that we are trying to be extra careful on the range and trying to be sensitive to the surrounding areas This has been a great thread!!

[lugnut]

There is no rule in USPSA against pointing the muzzle straight up, as long as you don't break the 180. I'm not sure about IDPA rules.

IDPA has no rule on this either. It's common for folks to reload with the muzzle pointing upward. There are some clubs that will warn you (or DQ) for this but it's not an IDPA rule, nor is it unsafe gun handling IMO. You do that with your finger on the trigger though and it's a different story.

Edited February 22, 2010 by lugnut

[sifu128]

There is no rule in USPSA against pointing the muzzle straight up, as long as you don't break the 180. I'm not sure about IDPA rules.

IDPA has no rule on this either. It's common for folks to reload with the muzzle pointing upward. There are some clubs that will warn you (or DQ) for this but it's not an IDPA rule, nor is it unsafe gun handling IMO. You do that with your finger on the trigger though and it's a different story.

I agree!

[Aristotle]

I believe Spank broke the 180 when he bobbled the mag reload at the end. He was already pretty close to it, when he bobbled the reload, it probably pushed it beyond 180.

As for the angle of the gun, neither USPSA nor IDPA has any rules against that. And if you are an SO or RO, let's please try and stick with the "official range commands".

Edited February 22, 2010 by Aristotle

[twodownzero]

If you look closely, his feet are turned at a 45 degree angle. He would have had to turn the gun pretty far in his hand to break the 180 there. I even got a gun out and tried it myself, and I just don't see it unless your reload looks significantly different than mine.

I have actually DQed the exact same way but running from right to left (I'm a righty), but I was turned 90 degrees to the left so it was cut and dry for me. Gun rotated in my hand and broke the 180 (although pointed into the berm the whole time).

I stand behind my statement. Unless you were doing something really strange with your back to us, I don't think you broke the 180.

[Jadeslade]

Yup-we headed for closure here.

[Dan Hefta]

His back was towards us and we couln't even see the gun when "MUZZLE" was shouted. There is no way that any of us armchair RO's could see if he broke the 180 or not. When he was running to the right he could have easily broken the 180.

[spanky]

Please don't get this thread closed. I'm not in disagreement about my dq. I'm fine with it.

[BlackSabbath]

I know the RO very well. Spanky, you're right... he wouldn't have dinged you if he wasn't sure. Keep up the good attitude, and don't second guess your ability to safely go through a COF at speed. DQ's happen to everyone if they stay in this long enough. I started over 20 years ago, and it happened to me 4 times from 94 to 95 in a short 14 month time span. 2 ad's, 1 180, and I swept my arm opening a window port in the LA state match.

Go right back to Amite, and kick it.

[Dan Hefta]

Please don't get this thread closed. I'm not in disagreement about my dq. I'm fine with it.

Sorry Spank you are a true sportsman.

[sifu128]

One thing we should all take away from this is that it isn't a matter of "If you get DQ'ed", it's a matter of "When are you going to get DQ'ed". When we all push the envelope as we all do it is bound to happen at some time. I think threads like this are the learning experiences that we can all benefit from

Edited February 22, 2010 by sifu128

[Ron Ankeny]

Now you know why we have a classifier named "Lefty's Revenge". The DQ you experienced is the most common 180 violation I have encountered locally. When we have a stage that features movement along the 180 with a reload, during the stage briefing we remind shooters to be vigilant of the 180.

[Johnny Thunders]

His back was towards us and we couln't even see the gun when "MUZZLE" was shouted. There is no way that any of us armchair RO's could see if he broke the 180 or not. When he was running to the right he could have easily broken the 180.

Maybe if he lasered his abdomen .

[JFlowers]

Don't feel too bad. Sunday we had to DQ a long time shooter and personal friend for a ND after he had signed up for the match and before the first stage. Seems his gun was in his range bag loaded. Luckily the only things hurt were his pride, the tailgate of my truck, and the condition of a couple of folk's undies!

What made the whole situation so funny is that most people did not care about what boneheaded actions led to the ND, they were more concerned that he was shooting some awful light loads since the round penetrated the outer skin of the tailgate and failed to penetrate the inner!

And yes, he apologized to me all day (he stayed and RO'd) and all the way home (he rode with me!) Like you though, he took his medicine with grace and learned from the situation.

[spanky]

His back was towards us and we couln't even see the gun when "MUZZLE" was shouted. There is no way that any of us armchair RO's could see if he broke the 180 or not. When he was running to the right he could have easily broken the 180.

Maybe if he lasered his abdomen .

[twodownzero]

Please don't get this thread closed. I'm not in disagreement about my dq. I'm fine with it.

That's a really good attitude to have. I took my lashings the exact same way. I guess we even surprise ourselves sometimes. I had a bunch of old timers come up to me and tell me they'd done the same thing at some point.

[aztecdriver]

Is that an USPSA rule thing? I know in IDPA most SO's will call you on that.

There is no rule in USPSA against pointing the muzzle straight up, as long as you don't break the 180. I'm not sure about IDPA rules.

I don't want the thread to be closed either, but I want to point out that the 180-degree concept is a plane, not just a line. Rule 10.5.2 defines the offense to "allow the muzzle to point rearward" from the "90-degrees to the median intercept of the backstop." That will also apply to the vertical deflection. Though it should be very hard to do this straight up - you would need to almost pull it back to your shoulder. I've seen several new shooters start out moving from position to position by retracting their arm at the elbow so the muzzle is around 60 degrees vertical. I tell them afterward to be careful that 180 extends upward as well.

I'd like to thank OP for posting. Even though I'm a righty the problem still exists, although this stage clearly exacerbated the risk to lefty's based on the table position. As an RO, I hate DQ'ing people, but it's a necessary part of the sport and I'm sure the RO here didn't want to do it either. I'm sure you will learn to keep this from happening again. Congrats on taking your DQ with class.

[spanky]

Please don't get this thread closed. I'm not in disagreement about my dq. I'm fine with it.

That's a really good attitude to have. I took my lashings the exact same way. I guess we even surprise ourselves sometimes. I had a bunch of old timers come up to me and tell me they'd done the same thing at some point.

Thanks. I learned a couple valuable lessons so there was no reason to be upset (other than making a mistake I know better than to make). Hell, you can see on stage 1 I make a reload THEN run to the right. I know what to do, I just didn't do it.

Edited February 23, 2010 by spankaveli

[twodownzero]

Looked damn close to the 180 at about 29 seconds in that vid to me, if not over.

[spanky]

I remember seeing that when I dropped the slide. It was close but not over.

[murkish]

There is just something about watching a video of a lefty draw that makes me uncomfortable. Its like they are another species or something.

Jack

[John Heiter]

I just sat in on another Level I class this past weekend and it makes me think there's two good lessons to be learned from this clip. While you can't see exactly where the RO handling the score sheet was standing, he obviously recognized the potential for 180 issues on this stage (especially for those gifted w/ left handedness) and positioned himself where he would be able to back up the first RO. Too may times you see the guy on the clip board forgetting that he's an RO with responsibilities too. Obviously he was well positioned for this sort of thing as he had time to first give the "Muzzle" warning before having to yell stop. Having both RO's active on the stage, that's the first lesson.

The other lesson is that we should all be so gracious in accepting a DQ.

Thanks to Spank and the mods both for leaving this one open for discussion.

[spanky]

John, thanks. If you can't recognize the other ROs voice, it was Robert K. He apologized after and explained what I had done. Obviously I was okay with it and told him so. He said "You gotta DQ your friends because your enemies don't shoot with you.". So true.

See ya in a few weeks.