Where Did They Go?

[Bill]

A while back we had a thread about the missing Top Gun shooters.

But does anybody know what happened to Joe Average Shooter. The USPSA membership numbers are in the 40,000s. You see very few numbers below 20,000 or 30,000. It seems like most of the members are new. My number is A-4429. I have seen a lot of people come & go. Where did they go? What caused them to drop out?

I dropped out of USPSA for a while & only came back because of Revolver & Production. I got tired of poor stage design & the arms race. Some of the new rules seem to be helping that.

How many single stack compensated 45s & 38 Supers are in gun safes somewhere because they are outdated? I have a Nastoff that hasn't been shot in years.

Did they take up golf. Where did they go? Does anybody know? And if you do know someone like that how can we get them back??

Bill Nesbitt

[BrianH]

Bill,

I joined May of 1989, so I'm a little newer than you.

I see maybe a dozen people in the whole state that I recognize from the early days.  Even some real diehard types from the early 90's have bailed.  I figure it's things like boredom with the hobby, got into something new, got tired of practicing/loading ammo/paying match fees, but most often I'd guess it's that for the average shooter there is no payback for the game.  Remember prize tables at club matches?  The prizes usually went to the same people each match.  To win you had to practice, and that required bullets, powder, time away from the family...lots of things.  Also, I wonder about the people who, when the P9 was being replaced by the McCormick frame and the Caspian, some guys were JUST getting their single stack, no scope Heinie comp gun that they had been waiting 6 years for.  I think the equipment race pissed a lot of people off.  I JUST FINISHED the .38 super I had been planning for 4 years (not really finished, it still needs plating.)

That's my take.

[skeeter]

i really think your on to something brian. i'd like to throw in burn out, old age(i know a few how just can't get around as well) but family seems to be the big one around here if they are real young they meet girls(that whole sex thing seems to me so much to a 19 year old) and then they get married cann't afford to then the kids get bigger and need you more. this is a big one for me i'm always taking them somewhere. i even know guys that spend time with grandkids that they didn't have to worry about 5 years ago.

[shred]

I'm guessing lots of 'em are getting older and not so much into competing.  A19999 was given out almost 11 years ago, and A9999 was 15 years ago.

There seem to be three general age categories shooters fall into-- Kids, Pre-Kids and Post-Kids (as always, there are exceptions).

The Kids zoom up the ranks, then discover girls and cars and aren't heard from again.

The Pre-Kids do well until the kids arrive and then you don't see them until 15 years later, if at all.

I'm guessing many of the old Post-Kids find something more sedentary to do as body parts wear out and they realize they're not getting any better.  I really salute the senior shooters that can still shoot.

While I started a couple years before the Limited arms race, I don't know of anybody personally that left because of it.  Of course this was STI's hometown...

(Edited by shred at 8:09 pm on Jan. 5, 2003)

[Jake Di Vita]

I think cost is definetely a big issue too. I haven't shot in over 2 weeks because I can't afford any .40 bullets and the Beretta is still in the shop.

[Chuck D]

When I started (a-6676 circa 1987 ) 12 of us (I was the youngest...by far) used to shoot together. In 2003, I'm the only one left. Ask my former "group of suspects" why they left and you hear three things. First, IPSC isn't "practical" anymore.....those guys gravitated towards IDPA. Secondly, the first arms race (scopes and comps). Lastly,the second arms race ( hi-capacity Limited division guns). L10 and Production has brought some of these guys back on a very limited basis but they still seem to prefer IDPA. The sole exception to these rules is my father,whom fell in love with NRA Handgun Silhouette ( boring) and never wanted to return. If I had to sum up the reason in one lump sum I'd say the arms race drives people away. Hopefully the new divisions will correct this.

[2alpha]

The arms race and cost is a big thing. It costs more now for a competitive holster, belt, and mag holder rig than a Colt Govt 45 did in the early days.

[Steve Anderson]

I think, with all due respect, that a lot of the reasons we are hearing secondhand may be code for...

"Gosh this is hard, if I want to place well I need to practice a lot more...ahh screw it, I can still do OK in IDPA."

Of course this is not the case with all, but I know a few guys locally who want to place well without practicing at all.

Guess what, can't be done.

If it was really the "arms race" (another bogus copout, IMO) and nothing else, they'd be in lim 10 or prod.

Again, this does not cover everyone, but you can't come to a central Ohio club without practicing and expect to do well in the placement.

You can, however have a s-load of fun shooting...

SA

[BSeevers]

Steve

You said it. I just thought it.

Think about how many hundreds, maybe thousand, I have seen quit. I can't tell you how many people I have seen buy a new racegun and quit. A lot before they even shot it in a match!! Quite a few have real reasons but I think your comment covers the majority.

Nothing wrong just shooting for fun, but quitting and then whining. We know what that is.

[Chuck D]

Funny. If I'm to believe the above statements the 12 usual suspects quit because of the competition. All I can offer in rebuttal is of the 12 I speak of 10 were IPSC Masters. Most all of these guys came from a PPC background ( used to be a big deal around here) and 8 of these guys shot 590's out of 600 on a regular basis. 3 of these guys were NRA Action Pistol High Masters. I think it's safe to say the majority can and do perform well. It's not a stretch to say after a period of time people simply don't want to spend 3 grand plus on a race gun get-up to go and have "fun" on the weekends. I continually ask these guys to come out to a club match and shoot "like the old days" but after a period of time they feel the sport and them have little if anything in common. We sometimes shoot ourselves in the foot by trying to make a blanket statement fit what is an individual choice not to participate and call those whom have issues with the game and how it's run "whiners". If that's the case than IPSC is FULL of whiners,simply because I've NEVER seen a consensus on any subject since I joined this organization 16 years ago.

[Flexmoney]

...and I was geting ready to say it.

Chuck D probably has covered the bases of why people say they left.

-  IPSC isn't "practical" anymore.....those guys gravitated towards IDPA.

I think Steve's answer to that has some truth behind it.

-  Secondly, the first arms race (scopes and comps).

This one can't be argued with.  Price is a barrier.  And, if I were waiting for my gunsmith to finish building my single-stack, comped, 45...and, by the time I got it, it was not competitive...I'd be pissed too.

-  Lastly,the second arms race ( hi-capacity Limited division guns).

Blame Uncle Sam and the gun-grabbers for this one.  Those guns wouldn't be so expensive without the 10 mag limit.  

[Chuck D]

Hi Cap Limited guns wouldn't be so expensive w/o the 10 round limit? How So? The gun would STILL be the same cost regardless if it came with a hi-cap mag or not. Basically , the complaints I hear from shooters from all walks of life are that L10 division should be a single stack division. I disagree with this but you can buy a top shelf Kimber for 900 bucks vs a Factory built STI/SV for 1800 dollars plus. That's a touch argument to discredit and here's where the arms race excuse/reason rears its ugly head.

[jhgtyre]

Chuck D,

You can buy a top shelf Para for $900 bucks too.  The problem is that you have to spend another $500+ to get magazines that are competitive.  That makes it a lot more expensive than the SS Kimber.

-ld

[Chuck D]

Yes you certainly can but overall your choice of Hi-Cap guns are limited but the availability of single stack models withing the under 1000 dollar price range is greater. I understand there are exceptions to EVERY rule,I'm only passing on the opinions/reasons given to me when I'm told the reasons why L10 should be a single stack division. I don't completely buy the argument,just passing on what I'm told for discussion purposes.

[Flexmoney]

Hi Cap Limited guns wouldn't be so expensive w/o the 10 round limit? How So?

Without going into economics too much...

With the ban...there are few mags available...so there are few double stack guns being built...so there are few manufacturers in the market...limited supply.

That leaves the market open only to the top end guys...those willing to spend $$$ for 10+ mags.

I could provide examples...might get boring though.  Know that the 10 round mag law has limited our choice, limited competition (in the market place), and keep prices highier than they would be in a "free market".  

It has keep the single-stacks viable though...and the wheel guns (to some extent).

[BSeevers]

I relate it to other sports. I can get the latest Ti driver for $450 or just use the one I got. I can get the Magnesium rims for autocross or keep my stock ones. This sport costs money. So does golf. The latest and greatest is usually selling for 2/3 the price next year because the newest/lightest/ fastest version is coming out in the spring. That's racing.

I think you get my point,

Been said many times but what we are trying to say is "Its the shooter/driver/golfer and they are a large group of whiners or excuse makers in all sports.  I have low tolerance for them wasting my time. It also stunts the growth of the sport, dwelling on these issues.

Those previous mentioned issues are solved by Production, right?. Cheap gun, cheap ammo, cheap mags, no mods allowed. If so many of these people are knocked out of this sport then they should return in droves for Production. I say let's get the people who want to get involved with the sport involved. We should always try and improve our recruiting efforts. However some people probably don't belong because of their attitudes. I guess that's why I take such a hard line and call them whiners.

I sold my .45 SS racegun for much less than I paid for it. Thats the breaks of the game. We are a young evolving sport. Its bad that some people get burnt, I think its normal not burnt,  but we can't dwell on that. But we can look to the future and get more people involved. I think the changes of the last few years have been outstanding and Mike V and others are doing a lot of the right things. Is it perfect, No Freakin way. Is it better? I think so and that's all you can ask. Now let's get more people involved in the sport. You all love it and there are more people out there who will. Some used to love it and they are welcome and missed. I think more are doing something else. Let's get them involved.

[Chuck D]

I'm not too sure I buy that theory Flexmoney but you may be correct. I certainly don't claim to be "all knowing". Thanks for your point of view,certainly gives me food for thought.

[Loves2Shoot]

The bullets are the big cost thing for me, because I like to shoot them. It is not a cheap sport, but the fun factor is big.

The arms race to me is a mystery, you can go out and spend lots, but do you really need to to be competitive? There are many categories to "even" the playing field. I think the best shooters out there could win with any solid platform that they had, because they are good shooter. All you need is a good trigger, good sight picture, a grip that fits you, tuned mags, and a gun that goes bang every time. Pretty simple right?

My suggestion on improving classes:

#1 Make L10 a single stack category .38 super, .40, .45 ALL make major then those SS .38's cold be dusted off and used once you take the scope off.

#2 Make your L10 classification and limited classification the same classification having 2 makes no sense.

my 2 cents

[lynn jones]

cost drives shooters away?

you have got to be joking!

ipsc is one of the cheapest sports and hobbies around. do the math compared to golf, skeet, trap, and sporting clays you have to pay to practice.  that runs your cost way beyond shooting pistols.

lynn jones

[Chuck D]

There are cheaper shooting sports out there but none as exciting as IPSC. Every now and then my dad drags me to a NRA Handgun Slihouette match. We have a great time together but shooting 40 rounds at metal animals is like pulling teeth compared to a couple of good field courses. I have to fight the urge to run down range and engage the chickens,pigs,turkeys and rams "on the run".

[shred]

Cost does drive some shooters away, but no more than cost drives people from other sports.

IPSC is more expensive than plinking at the range.  Golf is more expensive than hiking around in funny pants.  Windsurfing is more expensive than floating around the lake on an innertube.

To get seriously into almost any gear-intensive individual outdoor sport will cost you $1000-$2000 and up.  Mountain biking, Scuba diving, Windsurfing, Golf, Skydiving, Motocross, Skiing, Snowboarding, Rock Climbing, etc, all can run you north of $1K in a big hurry.

(Edited by shred at 1:23 pm on Jan. 6, 2003)

[skeeter]

if cost is the problem then we need to convince people you don't need to spend 2000 on a gun. i spent less than 500 for my glock 24. $40 on my holster, 3 mag pouchs, belt all under 100. so i'm up and running for less than $700. so why do new shooters feel the need to spend so much

[BSeevers]

Chuck D

If you ever run down range and engage the Rams on the run please tell me. I think I would rather see the expressions on other people faces than anything Man that paints a funny picture.

[Chuck D]

I doubt I'll make it THAT far but I'll send you a picture of the EMS crew working feverishly to restart my ticker !

[Duane Thomas]

"Funny. If I'm to believe the above statements the 12 usual suspects quit because of the competition. All I can offer in rebuttal is of the 12 I speak of 10 were IPSC Masters. Most all of these guys came from a PPC background ( used to be a big deal around here) and 8 of these guys shot 590's out of 600 on a regular basis. 3 of these guys were NRA Action Pistol High Masters. I think it's safe to say the majority can and do perform well."

There's also an ego factor to consider. It could also be that the skill level that allowed those folks to peform well, i.e. place high in the matches, in the late 1980s isn't enough to do well these days - and they can't handle that. When Michael Bane was planning publicity for the Factory Gun Nationals, one thing he did was invite many Masters of the past to shoot the match. "Back to the Future," the greats shooting the same sort of equipment they did back when, you know the drill. It was a great idea. Not a single person took him up on the offer. Those guys haven't kept up with the advances in technique, they couldn't hang with the good shooters any more. And there's no way a former good shooter is going to get out there and look like a stumblebum.