Vince Pinto Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 Hi guys, Given the never-ending controversy about Limited Vs L10, would this work?: 1) USPSA drops Limited (not L10) in favour of IPSC Standard Division. 2) We change the IPSC Standard "Box" rule so that your gun must fit "the box" without a magazine inserted, hence most (all?) current Limited guns would be able to comply (no $). 3) We retain the "behind the hipbone" rule in IPSC Standard Division. This means some (most?) USPSA guys might need to get a new holster (small $). 4) IPSC globally adopts L10 as a new division, under existing USPSA equipment rules, including the 140mm mag length for double-stack and freestyle holster position (no $, and LTD guys still have a use for their current LTD/L10 holster) What does this do for everybody? A) STD/L10 are more different than LTD/L10. Apart from the mag capacity issue, the "behind the hipbone" rule in Standard would make an extra difference. As a result, having different classifications for STD/L10 would make more sense than for LTD/L10 C) USPSA shooters could shoot L10 all over the world and at World Shoot, and new shooters in the USA who cannot lawfully buy regular capacity mags still have a home. D) Most (all?) IPSC shooters would probably need to buy mag extentions, as most mags which fit the box now are 126mm long in double-stack (small $). E) The USPSA would have a "behind the hipbone" division for single-action guns to complement the same thing in Production. F) Globally, the most popular IPSC guns (single-actions) would have four divisions (Open, MOD, STD, L10) and, if any other region went to a 10 round limit, we'd be ready for it. G) USPSA Limited classifier results would adjust over time but (arguably) at the same rate for everyone. H) The "behind the hipbone" rule would appeal to IDPA shooters with single action pistols. Is there any downside to the above proposal? (Edited by Vince Pinto at 1:34 pm on Jan. 14, 2003) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bulm5 Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 Bring it on!!!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Merricks Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 I like most of what your saying. The one thing I would change on your proposal is the "behind the hipbone" that way nobody has to buy anything new. A vast majority of USPSA members will never shoot outside the US and outside USPSA rules. The hipbone rules would make most of the Limited shooters change equipment and the way they shoot. Thats the down side as I see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted January 14, 2003 Author Share Posted January 14, 2003 Damn. I forgot to mention how the "behind the hipbone" rule would also appeal to IDPA shooters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerome Poiret Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 Vince, This sounds very good. 2 questions: - IPSC standard goes to 140mm mags ? - why would US shooters have to buy a new holster ? Can't they just slide it back a little ? It looks like I'm missing something... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbear38S Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 Better idea... IPSC drops the "behind the hipbone" rule for Standard. I like it as is because with my Limcat holster, I can shoot Open and immediately change to Limited without changing or moving my rig. Item H illustrates why NOT to adapt a "behind the hipbone" rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbear38S Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 - why would US shooters have to buy a new holster ? Can't they just slide it back a little ? It looks like I'm missing something... It depends on the holster and how an individual has it adjusted. Some models can be canted, tilted, and adjusted in so many ways, that a +/- 2" move can have a profound effect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted January 14, 2003 Author Share Posted January 14, 2003 Hi Jerome, As you would no longer need to insert your gun into the box with a magazine, we would simply mandate the maximum length is 140mm for double stack. Of course this means current Standard competitors who have 126mm (??) mags will probably all want to "upgrade" to 140mm with basepads. I'm reliably informed this is inexpensive. I'm just guessing about the US holsters. If they can just slide them back, great, however I suspect some of the "race" models will not be so effective "behind the hipbone". However even if they did need to buy a new holster for Standard, their current Limited holster is still perfect for L10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerome Poiret Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 Thanks kbear38S & Vince. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMD Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 Nice concept. Anything that puts USPSA and IPSC on the same page is worth looking at twice. More mag wells will need changing than holsters, but “offset” that expense by the rest of the world adding base pads, everyone contributes (pays) equally. It also addresses those who mourn the passing of our Principles – to some degree. Better reread the proposal, there must be something I’m missing! Joel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 I like USPSA's Limited and Lim10 rules just as they are. I don't like the idea that my Limited gun would have to fit in a box. I don't want to move my holster to shoot Lim10. I guess I don't get what USPSA would have to gain by changing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Merricks Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 Attracting IDPA shooters? Most IDPA shooters that shoot a single action are also shooting a single stack. So if they were too be attracted it would be to L-10. Well if you don't change any rules in L-10 don't think that it would be any more attractive than it is now. (Edited by Jon Merricks at 5:23 pm on Jan. 14, 2003) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Dunlop Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 Great proposal Vince, you have my support! I have a pretty racy holster, an 012, and have no trouble using it 'behind the hip'. I'm not sure if many are aware of how liberal the IPSC holster position is, that there bone what you've got to be behind the most forward part of done come forward a mighty long way, mine does anyway, (though that might be on account of all them wompin's I got from my momma!!) P.D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noname Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 You are going to have a tough time getting the USPSA Limited Division shooters to buy into a "behind the hip" high capacity (wide body) division. Would this new division replace Limited Division at the Race Gun Nationals, or would we just have one Race Gun division from then on (Open Division)? I think most Limited shooters would gravitate to L10 rather than shoot a new USPSA Standard-like division. That would be counter productive to what the single stack shooters would like to see happen in USPSA. IDPA shooters aren't going to be influenced by this change. They are primarily single stack (for a SA gun), factory length mag, behind the hip with a carry holster type shooters. Many of the reasons for IDPA shooters not crossing over to shoot IPSC go beyond the equipment issues. What about the power factor differences between Standard and Limited? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Bagoly Posted January 15, 2003 Share Posted January 15, 2003 I'm a bit puzzled. My limited gun fits in the box. Most do. Holster is good where it is. Check out BE's holster in pictures. Start with the gun indexed, before it's in your hand. Only change for me would be mags behind the hip. That would Suck! I have never understood the behind the hip thing. Why is this required? Its not too bad for Limited, not too many reloads needed. Have you seen the Canadians toting a buttload of 10 rnd. mags to shoot "Standard" in the US? I don't mean to slur Canadians, but it looks silly. It makes sense that if you have to carry a lot of 10 rnd. mags, you get to put them anywhere you like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Dunlop Posted January 15, 2003 Share Posted January 15, 2003 Rich, Vince's proposal was for L10 as is, i.e. freestyle holster, and Limited to be replaced with Standard and its behind the hip rule. P.D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2alpha Posted January 15, 2003 Share Posted January 15, 2003 I guess I've missed the " never ending controversy " invloving L10 and Limited. Race gun behind the hip is total BS. It's so odd to me that IPSC wants to impose behind the hip when the majority of the countries other than the US have no concealed carry for civies. Anyone is free to wear their holsters behind the hip in any Division now but I can't see what revelance this mode of carry has to do with USPSA shooting. Most of the crappy rules we have are from trying to compromise between the behind the hip blood and guts guys and the " gamers ". I remember when we could use low cut race holsters but we still had to loop our gun belt through the belt loops. That made sense too right? The current A zone is another example of compromise that doesn't make sense. We have this zone because it represents a more realistic K zone according to the blood and guts guys. Is it really valid for a competition? Wouldn't round scoring rings be more fair? Ok I'm drifting. Trying to police behind the hip for a bunch of USPSA shooters is just about impossible. Look around at Production, every match has someone pushing the rules. The Single Stack Society has struggled with enforcing this from the begining and still doesn't do a very good job of it. We don't need no stinkin new rules for problems that don't exist. Limited and L10 are both successful American divisions and should be left alone. Trying to consolidate the rules between IPSC and USPSA is not going to happen unless the US shooters don't mind grabbing their ankles and takin it. Let IPSC do whatever it wants and leave us alone. That's why USPSA was formed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Bagoly Posted January 15, 2003 Share Posted January 15, 2003 Phil, I got it. I'm saying that the proposal is not outrageous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Dunlop Posted January 15, 2003 Share Posted January 15, 2003 So americans have to move their holsters and the rest of the world has to buy new basepads, and we end up all playing together, just football, as opposed to soccer and rugby union and gridiron and aussie rules and rugby league and.... there is strength in unity and yes, I'm still in! P.D. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
38supPat Posted January 15, 2003 Share Posted January 15, 2003 I think that the holster position will be the biggest bone of contention. Most of the others are almost irrelevant as the guns are close enough anyways. I am curious why IPSC is sticking to this rule when it is hard to enforce and I constantly see battles at matches over it. Almost every time I see someone whining about other shooters equipment, it has to do with holster position. Why not abandon this? It really has no relevance left in the world of IPSC. (Edited by Pat Harrison at 8:58 pm on Jan. 14, 2003) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted January 15, 2003 Author Share Posted January 15, 2003 Pat, IPSC Standard Division, with the holster position and the guns used, are the "purist" forms of IPSC which most closely reflects our origins. It's not the only reason IDPA got started, but I believe it's part of the story. Secondly, my proposal doesn't require surgery !! The difference between Limited and L10 now is solely magazine capacity, right? I see numerous debates here and elsewhere about how classifiers in Limited should apply to L10. Or why they shouldn't! Perhaps introducing another (non-invasive!) aspect to Limited by adopting the holster position rule, would make a difference and possibly eliminate classifier arguments. The proposal would also introduce L10 to the rest of the world and make it part of international matches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noname Posted January 15, 2003 Share Posted January 15, 2003 There is nothing stopping IPSC from introducing L10 to the world right now. It doesn't require a Standard/Limited hybrid division first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vince Pinto Posted January 15, 2003 Author Share Posted January 15, 2003 As far as I know, there are only two IPSC Regions which currently have 10 round limits: the USA & Canada. The rest of the world doesn't need L10 but I'm willing to bet my left cojone that they would be willing to accept it in spirit of good faith and to add another layer of competition. It would only require another page in the rulebook and Match Directors would continue to decide which divisions would be recognised at their match, and this would largely depend on the popularity of each division. There are people, like me, who believe one of the skills which has faded over the years is reloading on the move. This is the primary reason why I still shoot a Glock 21 in IPSC Production Division, eventhough I could carry 4 more rounds if I used my Glock 17. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted January 15, 2003 Share Posted January 15, 2003 So add the page. Just don't mess with USPSA's rules. I don't see a need to change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooter Grrl Posted January 15, 2003 Share Posted January 15, 2003 Here's my .02 cents. IPSC and USPSA only need 3 divisions. Open, Limited and Production. Open as is, Limited fits in the box without mags, 140mm mag limit. Production is where the changes need to be made! And I think production should only focus on gun types, not holsters, mags or round limits. There are only 2 types of people in IPSC competition, newbies and racers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now