IPSC goes to 15 rds in production... Will USPSA follow ?

[badchad]

If you want to place higher in the overall because you have mags of higher capacity....wait for it....wait for it....shoot Limited! That's what it's there for

I thought that's what shooting Open is for. Sure we could shoot Limited, and I do as well, but we could also just load up the mags that are sitting there at only 2/3 capacity. And as I said newer shooters, at least around here, seem to gravitate toward Limited regardless of how handicapt (WRT division) they are by their gear. I reckon they just want to do better against their buddies regardless of division. But placing is what it is to every individual. At TNS I hear guys talking all the time about how happy they are to make it on the first page of the results. Who are you to tell them their goals are no good?

Benchmarking your performance based on how you place to know folks like Nils or Robby is reasonable. Changing the rules so you can get closer to them while shooting Production, isn't. R,

Changing the rules wouldn't get you closer to them. If they shoot Production, they would have the same increase. But at a lot of matches, at least local, winning your division is IMO just (how did you put it?) trivia. I suppose the only personal complaints I have is that loading every time you move, often requires less decision making than finding the best spot, and I think 15 rounds would let you change mindsets a bit, as Pharoah Bender would put it. This might provide more opportunity for a US shooter to shoot in the mindset that best prepares them to win the world shoot. Regardless, Production is still my favorite class for a number of reasons. The only thing I see against 15 rounds is the few states that have 10 round limitations, but by that reasoning we should do away with Limited and put a 10 round limit on open pistols. I suppose on principle, I don't like letting the few states with the most restrictive gun control laws wag the dog of the rest of the USA/USPSA.

As for making more guns competitive maybe we could then limit Single Stacks to 6 rounds in a magazine so people could better compete with their Colt Officer's Model pistols.

[GeneralChang]

I like the 10 round limit. I used to be a proponent of increasing the limit to 15 but I have been shooting production for over a year now and find it to be fun and challenging. 10 round limit makes you less apt to take chances as opposed to 15 rounds.

[badchad]

I took a look at the TNS results. I see you scored 5th in Production and 6th in Limited.

Just sayin....

You got me there. I figure that's cause it was darker when I shot Limited. At least in theory, more bullets is better.

[twodownzero]

I think they should have done that a long time ago. Eliminate L-10, because single stack replaced it (because the original purpose of L-10 was to keep single stack guns competitive, and now people are using double stack guns in L-10). While you're at it, open the flood gates in production for bigger mags. Production is already limited to minor, and it'd be more fun with stock guns and big magazines.

If they want, they can retain Production-10, but I see no purpose. Limited is popular because people like the big mags. In fact, it's the reason I am shooting limited now instead of my beloved SS and production.

[Flexmoney]

If I had a vote and I do, NO.

And, thank you, Chris.

[Jim Norman]

For any US based Production shooter that wants to compete in IPSC, no problem, load up to 15, get out your race holster and shoot Limited Minor. You can then apply your skills to see how you place in the Overalls and you can take your HFs and compare them to the Production shooters.

You get to practice and compete all without having to change the USPSA rules to suit yourselves. Everyone wins.

Hey, if you get really good, you might even win Limited with your 15 round minor production gun. Think of how good that will feel!

Jim

[badchad]

I have NEVER heard a complaint from a new shooter that there was too much reloading in Production.

I don't know that I have either. It's just that most of the time when I RO a new shooter with a Glock 23 and Production legal gear, I look down at his card and see he's registered in Limited.

[Vlad]

Am I the only one annoyed that we are even having the conversation? What is with the compulsion to much with Production. Lets leave the damn thing alone for more then 2 years in a row?

[Alan Meek]

I see no compelling reason to change USPSA production rules.

If you want to run production mags with 15 rounds in them, then you can at an US-IPSC match. Which, by the way is allowed within USPSA. Any USPSA Club can hold an IPSC rules match.

Alan

[G-ManBart]

If you want to place higher in the overall because you have mags of higher capacity....wait for it....wait for it....shoot Limited! That's what it's there for

I thought that's what shooting Open is for. Sure we could shoot Limited, and I do as well, but we could also just load up the mags that are sitting there at only 2/3 capacity. And as I said newer shooters, at least around here, seem to gravitate toward Limited regardless of how handicapt (WRT division) they are by their gear. I reckon they just want to do better against their buddies regardless of division. But placing is what it is to every individual. At TNS I hear guys talking all the time about how happy they are to make it on the first page of the results. Who are you to tell them their goals are no good?

Open isn't the only place for unrestricted magazine capacity...Limited doesn't have a restriction on magazine capacity either. Every other division but those two does. So, if someone wants to shoot an iron sighted, non-compensated gun, without capacity limits...Limited is it.

I'm not saying that their goals are no good, I'm just saying that the sport isn't set up to recognize combined rankings. The various divisions were created for the specific purpose of getting away from combined results.

Benchmarking your performance based on how you place to know folks like Nils or Robby is reasonable. Changing the rules so you can get closer to them while shooting Production, isn't. R,

Changing the rules wouldn't get you closer to them. If they shoot Production, they would have the same increase. But at a lot of matches, at least local, winning your division is IMO just (how did you put it?) trivia. I suppose the only personal complaints I have is that loading every time you move, often requires less decision making than finding the best spot, and I think 15 rounds would let you change mindsets a bit, as Pharoah Bender would put it. This might provide more opportunity for a US shooter to shoot in the mindset that best prepares them to win the world shoot. Regardless, Production is still my favorite class for a number of reasons. The only thing I see against 15 rounds is the few states that have 10 round limitations, but by that reasoning we should do away with Limited and put a 10 round limit on open pistols. I suppose on principle, I don't like letting the few states with the most restrictive gun control laws wag the dog of the rest of the USA/USPSA.

As for making more guns competitive maybe we could then limit Single Stacks to 6 rounds in a magazine so people could better compete with their Colt Officer's Model pistols.

The primary thing against going to 15 rounds is that a whole bunch of guns would no longer be considered competitive. Take the guy with a Beretta 96. He's got a 13 round gun instead of his buddy's 16 round Beretta 92. He's going to say "I have to buy a new gun to compete evenly"....as it stands now, they both load 10 in the mag and there is NO argument that one is handicapped because they don't own the right gun. There are a LOT of Production legal guns that fall into this area. R,

[badchad]

The primary thing against going to 15 rounds is that a whole bunch of guns would no longer be considered competitive. Take the guy with a Beretta 96. He's got a 13 round gun instead of his buddy's 16 round Beretta 92. He's going to say "I have to buy a new gun to compete evenly"....as it stands now, they both load 10 in the mag and there is NO argument that one is handicapped because they don't own the right gun. There are a LOT of Production legal guns that fall into this area. R,

There might be a LOT of guns that fall into that catagory, but I don't see a LOT of shooters shooting Production with those guns. Mec Gar makes 15 round mags for the Baretta 96 if needed. I really don't see any "compelling" reasons to change the rules, I just don't see any "compelling" reasons not to. Of the less than compelling reasons I lean slightly in favor of 15 rounds.

[glocklover]

I say leave it alone. Whats the challenge? If you want to make it easyer shoot limited divsion, and just because your shooting higher capsity doesn't make you a better shooter. There are different divsions for a reason.

Craig

[Calmwater]

Am I the only one annoyed that we are even having the conversation? What is with the compulsion to much with Production. Lets leave the damn thing alone for more then 2 years in a row?

No kidding. I don't understand the compulsion to take an expensive game and make it more expensive for some by changing equipment rules and making gear less competitive. If I want to move up my overall performance I can shoot limited minor with 17 round mags. Not competitive in limited? I can shoot in production and be competitive there since that is what I bought my gear for in the first place. All of my mags are high caps anyway, so it wouldn't hurt me to have a 15 round cap, but why do it to the people it would hurt? What do we gain? There has been a tendency to hold Production / Single Stack matches. It is kind of fun to see the balance of 10 shot minor vs 8 shot major. That competitiveness would be gone.

[webbo]

Am I the only one annoyed that we are even having the conversation? What is with the compulsion to much with Production. Lets leave the damn thing alone for more then 2 years in a row?

Nope, I too am annoyed with this conversation. Ipsc is changing, that is good for them but it doesn't mean we should have to consider it too. I don't think it would be good for us.

[G-ManBart]

The primary thing against going to 15 rounds is that a whole bunch of guns would no longer be considered competitive. Take the guy with a Beretta 96. He's got a 13 round gun instead of his buddy's 16 round Beretta 92. He's going to say "I have to buy a new gun to compete evenly"....as it stands now, they both load 10 in the mag and there is NO argument that one is handicapped because they don't own the right gun. There are a LOT of Production legal guns that fall into this area. R,

There might be a LOT of guns that fall into that catagory, but I don't see a LOT of shooters shooting Production with those guns. Mec Gar makes 15 round mags for the Baretta 96 if needed. I really don't see any "compelling" reasons to change the rules, I just don't see any "compelling" reasons not to. Of the less than compelling reasons I lean slightly in favor of 15 rounds.

Okay, forget the Beretta 96; I didn't realize anybody made a 15rd mag for it. Still, the guy on the street showing up to try a match is almost certainly going to have factory mags and be at a disadvantage to the rest of the field if the rule were changed.

Just this Thurs night we had our local indoor practice/match geared specifically for newbies. I know two guys were shooting XDs in .40 (13rd mag), one guy had an H&K USP in .40 (13rd mag). I think one guy was shooting a Sig 226 in .40 (12rd mag) but I didn't pick up his mags so I'm not 100% certain on that one. They loaded to ten and had a great time....perfect.

Edit to add: I'm pretty sure that most of the newbies running Limited with Production style guns are doing so because they don't have enough mags when they first start and don't want to spend money until they're sure they like the sport.

I regularly meet people at the range who ask if I shoot competitively when they see my gear. They invariably start asking about cost etc. I always ask what guns they have, and invariably wind up telling them they can either shoot their 1911 in SS, or their Glock/XD/M&P/Sig/Etc in Production and be on an even playing field with everybody else. Yeah, they might need to buy or borrow a couple of mags, and/or mag pouches, but that's pretty insignificant.

No offense (actually, it's a compliment ), but as a multi-division GM, your viewpoint on the sport is going to be a lot different from the average shooter and light years from a new shooter. You're good enough to only be thinking about the very top of the rankings no matter what you're shooting, for good reason. Most people will never, ever be in that position. I've had a friend be totally thrilled over winning first C at an Area match even though they were 50th in the division results and considerably lower in combined results....if it keeps them motivated, that's great. Personally, I don't give a rats patoot about anything other than how high my overall finish is, but I'm weird like that.

If we want to draw the largest number of new shooters into the sport, the best way to do that is to have a division with an extremely level playing field for the largest number of guns people likely own. The 10 round limit helps establish that. A 15 round limit wouldn't be nearly so effective. Sure, new shooters may eventually buy another gun that they think is a better fit, but we got them in the door with what they had. That same rule won't push current shooters away, so there's really no downside to it.

With that I'll take Dr. Evil's advice and "zip it"

Edited February 6, 2010 by G-ManBart

[LPatterson]

I have NEVER heard a complaint from a new shooter that there was too much reloading in Production.

I don't know that I have either. It's just that most of the time when I RO a new shooter with a Glock 23 and Production legal gear, I look down at his card and see he's registered in Limited.

Have you taken the time to discuss with the shooter his option to shoot Production where mag capacity could have him placing closer to the top. Or maybe he is shooting for fun and his overall placement doesn't mean as much to him as it does to you.

[PCC-1]

Am I the only one annoyed that we are even having the conversation? What is with the compulsion to much with Production. Lets leave the damn thing alone for more then 2 years in a row?

I thought that conversation and intelligent discussion was the whole purpose of this board.... if you do not like the discussion you can simply just choose not to participate.

[Calmwater]

Am I the only one annoyed that we are even having the conversation? What is with the compulsion to much with Production. Lets leave the damn thing alone for more then 2 years in a row?

I thought that conversation and intelligent discussion was the whole purpose of this board.... if you do not like the discussion you can simply just choose not to participate.

You are of course right, that is exactly the purpose of this forum. I posted earlier in agreement with Vlad, not to silence anyone's opinion, only to say I STRONGLY disagree with changing equipment rules in the production division at this time. If some time from now there are great changes in what is mainstream for practical equipment from where we are I am sure production rules will be revisited.

[badchad]

Just this Thurs night we had our local indoor practice/match geared specifically for newbies. I know two guys were shooting XDs in .40 (13rd mag), one guy had an H&K USP in .40 (13rd mag). I think one guy was shooting a Sig 226 in .40 (12rd mag) but I didn't pick up his mags so I'm not 100% certain on that one. They loaded to ten and had a great time....perfect.

Edit to add: I'm pretty sure that most of the newbies running Limited with Production style guns are doing so because they don't have enough mags when they first start and don't want to spend money until they're sure they like the sport.

I figure it's 6 of one (buying higher cap mags), or half dozen of the other (buying more mags and mag pouches), I just don't think it's much of a big deal either way and would bet that by the time you get to any big match 90 plus percent of the Production shooters are shooting one of the usual suspect 9mm guns.

No offense (actually, it's a compliment ), but as a multi-division GM, your viewpoint on the sport is going to be a lot different from the average shooter and light years from a new shooter. You're good enough to only be thinking about the very top of the rankings no matter what you're shooting, for good reason.

FWIW I'm not really a GM. For TNS only Rio has club classifications where if you win your class 3 times you move up. A good number of the GMs are real kind though.

I could add a few more points but it's really not an issue I care that much about. I just thought the 'against 15' group was stacking arguments and the importance of said arguments a bit out of proportion.

[G-ManBart]

FWIW I'm not really a GM. For TNS only Rio has club classifications where if you win your class 3 times you move up. A good number of the GMs are real kind though.

Forgot about Rio's system...been a few years since I lived in AZ Still, it's pretty impressive

[badchad]

Thanks.

[Duane Thomas]

A few years ago I was talking to Michael Voigt and he told me that he viewed Production division as very much a way to bring new shooters into USPSA. "Not that there aren't a lot of really great shooters who compete in Production, too," he said. And while that's nice, still it's not the primary purpose of the division. The primary purpose is for shooters to be able to come out and try USPSA with the equipment, including gun, they already own, without the need to buy more equipment, or a different gun.

Therefore anything that makes the division less attractive to new shooters, including a magazine capacity rule that makes large numbers of "whatever gun that happen to already have" less competitive, I really can't see ever flying in USPSA.

[Vlad]

Am I the only one annoyed that we are even having the conversation? What is with the compulsion to much with Production. Lets leave the damn thing alone for more then 2 years in a row?

I thought that conversation and intelligent discussion was the whole purpose of this board.... if you do not like the discussion you can simply just choose not to participate.

I dont think you got my point. I've been shooting production for some time now and what I would like is people to stop screwing around with the division every couple of years. I don't care if someone has the most brilliant idea ever, stop changing the damn rules. It seems lots of people like the production game because they keep shooting it DESPITE (not because) of the stream of changes, so how about we stop treating those shooters as USPSA lab rats and let them (and me) enjoy their game?

[Alwaystryin]

In my opinion more shots are always more fun. Its a called a shooting match not a mag changing match.

Maybe a new limited 2 division where only 2 shots in each mag with a limit of 16 mags on the belt should be a division?

A true mag changers delight.

Edited February 7, 2010 by Alwaystryin

[Vlad]

In my opinion more shots are always more fun. Its a called a shooting match not a mag changing match.

Maybe a new limited 2 division where only 2 shots in each mag with a limit of 16 mags on the belt should be a division?

A true mag changers delight.

Actually it is called Practical shooting, which is not what comes to my mind when I stare a 170mm mag or other such things. Of course, if you just want to blast downrange there is always open waiting for you, so please leave production alone

PS: yes I know open shooters don't just blast downrange.