Flexmoney Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 Makes sense to me. Sounds like you have some local shooters that are avoiding whatever division has competition? I don't think the answer is to make L10 single-stack only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Singlestack Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 Quote: from Flexmoney I don't think the answer is to make L10 single-stack only. I agree. Having said that, I would not shoot my SVI .40 lim10. I have just as much money in my SS .45 and I would feel like I was missing a chanch to shoot it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuck D Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 L10 was NEVER meant to be a Single Stack only division. If you want to REALLY know what L10 was designed for contact Area 7 director Rob Boudrie. It was him ( thank you Rob) that presented the idea of L10 and Open 10 to the USPSA B.O.D. several years back. The people of several Northeastern states own both Rob and the USPSA B.O.D. a debt of gratitude ...all we can get in certain localities are 10 round mags. I shoot L10 with my SVI. Since when is it "cheating" to use the best equiptment for the job? Besides, doesn't TGO wax the rest of the nation with a single stack Springfield? My proudest moments come from besting a half dozen Limited Division shooters with my 10 round SVI. (Edited by Chuck D at 2:36 pm on Jan. 14, 2003) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbear38S Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 Perhaps I wasn't clear in my previous post. What I am saying is that I feel it is unethical for an accomplished Limited shooter to download his/her mags and shoot in a lower class, in L10 division, for the sole purpose of thumping up on a bunch of folks who are entry level, shooting on a budget, etc. Ron, Sorry, I understand now and with that I agree. What you're describing is another form of sandbagging. Limited 10 isn't terribly popular around MD, PA, VA. Most Limited shooters have stayed in Limited though there was a big pickup in L10 and Production just prior to the A8 Factory Gun Championship. I still don't agree with you that the gun is that much of a factor. Any decent A shooter should be able to whoop most B shooters most of the time (unless the B shooter is the sandbagger ) and I don't think the gun really makes that much of a difference, especially since many of the GM, M, and A shooters cut their teeth on a single stack and would still clobber an L10 shooter when they are shooting one classification down from their normal division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Posted January 15, 2003 Author Share Posted January 15, 2003 Thank you everyone, for sharing your insights and opinions about my questions. Sometimes I think the actual content of a message doesn't say nearly as much as the manner in which the communique is delivered. Regards -SJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kyle Norris Posted January 18, 2003 Share Posted January 18, 2003 OK, observations as both a shooter and minor match official. As a poor college student, I download my STI to shoot L10 because right now I can't afford another single stack (Dad shoots the one I've got now) for the sole purpose of shooting a division I don't shoot that often. I've also spent a heck of a lot of time/money setting up my gun and adjusting to it. I can't currently put that effort out, so I shoot what I know. The gun times and points the same way whether I've got 10 or 20 in the mag, which isn't gonna happen with a different caliber/gun. As I said before, I don't shoot L10 that often, and my class in that division hasn't caught up to my Limited class. It'd be the same if I shot Open, Production, ect. If you want to whoop up on lower class shooters, have at it. Just don't expect to earn a lot of respect in the process. As a match official, there's pretty much two types of L10 shooters we see. The downloads like me, and the "newbie" and/or IDPA shooters that show up to matches. The newbies can often expect to get whooped no matter what division they're shooting ( I pity the suckers that show up for the first time and have to get beat in Prod by my brother, hard on the ego). However, many of these shooters have come back and showed SIGNIFCANTLY improved performance the next time around, and many have been content with simply shooting at the level they started at and having fun. You get what you put in. The Mid-Atlantic region has been showed phenomenal growth last year compared to the two prior years when I started. Our match(North Mountain Practical Shooters) shot at capacity twice towards the end of last year. We started the year(prior to the Norris' taking over) with matches where only 15 shooters showed up. We've retained a remarkable number of first timers. Most of these shooters have been Prod and L10. They don't seem to complain about being beat by better shooting. Most of the whining comes from mid-level long time shooters (take that for what you will). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRNinTX Posted January 19, 2003 Share Posted January 19, 2003 I believe there is a different mindset in shooting L10 vs Lim. I shoot a box stock Springfield SS (thanks to Kyle, above) and I have watched many of the "downloaders" run their gun dry while shooting big field courses because they forget "the plan". That being said, I don't know that I will ever catch up to my boys, but through dry fire and practice, I have made great progress in my abilities. I can attest that it is great fun for a old fat guy with a skinny gun to beat a young skinny guy with a fat gun! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 19, 2003 Share Posted January 19, 2003 I can attest that it is great fun for a old fat guy with a skinny gun to beat a young skinny guy with a fat gun! Cool. Your family sounds like it is really doing more than it's share to promote practical pistol shooting. Do I have this right...one member shoots a G34, one a Single-stack, and another shoots a STI? That really brings home the point (for me) of running with what you own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 19, 2003 Share Posted January 19, 2003 On recruiting new shooters. I get lots of buddies asking me about this sport...wondering what they need to get into the game. Usually money is an issue. This will be a "one pistol" family. If I think they will be reloading, I'll steer them toward a 40 Glock. They have lots of options with the 40...Major/Minor, Limited, Production, Lim 10. If I don't see them reloading, then I suggest the 9mm Glock and Walmart Val-u-paks for ammo. I steer them to the Glock because I know that it will run. $400-500 gets them in the game with no worries about gun trouble. I just can't say that about a single-stack 1911. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noname Posted January 19, 2003 Share Posted January 19, 2003 I don't know how it is that L10 and Production became known as the "beginner" divisions. Last time I looked they both had GM and D classifications within them. There is no reason for a GM to fell guilty for beating up on a D class shooter, no matter what division it is being done in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRNinTX Posted January 19, 2003 Share Posted January 19, 2003 Flex, You got it! The boys paid for their guns and any repairs, parts or mods that they want (gives them an investment in the sport). Dad pays for reloading supplies and match fees. USPSA has given us countless hours together over the last two years and some good ole interfamily competition. It has given the boys a level of maturity and lets them know their Mom and I trust them that I'm not sure any other sport allows. I can also be the proud Dad when they beat me and most other adults on the range(but I never quit trying to beat them). It's a long story on how we got started, we are going to try our best to make the Buckeye Blast(somehow work and finances always get in the way), and maybe we can tell tales over a beer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted January 19, 2003 Share Posted January 19, 2003 The Great One and I were discussing this subject the other day at "The Baja." A year or two I totally would not have said this, but today, here's where I'd like to see it go: Open class as is. Limited class as is, except - 10 rounds max in the mags regardless of length, and Production class holster rules. Production class with two divisions - Single action and Double action. I realized an interesting pattern while talking at lunch - In the beginning, when there was no money in the sport, the guns were simple. As sponsorship money poured into the sport, the guns evolved and eventually became highly specialized. Now, as the money has left the sport, the guns are "devolving" back toward simplicity again. Interesting. be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noname Posted January 20, 2003 Share Posted January 20, 2003 Quote: from benos on 4:27 pm on Jan. 19, 2003 The Great One and I were discussing this subject the other day at "The Baja." A year or two I totally would not have said this, but today, here's where I'd like to see it go: Open class as is. Limited class as is, except - 10 rounds max in the mags regardless of length, and Production class holster rules. Production class with two divisions - Single action and Double action. I realized an interesting pattern while talking at lunch - In the beginning, when there was no money in the sport, the guns were simple. As sponsorship money poured into the sport, the guns evolved and eventually became highly specialized. Now, as the money has left the sport, the guns are "devolving" back toward simplicity again. Interesting. be It would be interesting to know how your conversation went with TGO regarding the PC issue that always comes up when a 10 round limit is suggested for Limited Division. Also, do you want to disolve the Revolver Division? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted January 20, 2003 Share Posted January 20, 2003 Brian: I agree. Your suggestion would sure take care of a lot of the squabbling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted January 21, 2003 Share Posted January 21, 2003 "I am an A class L10 shooter with only 5 classifiers in from one match and a special classifier. I am shooting L10 and open this year, but if I want to shoot limited in 3-gun or at the Nationals, I will be B-Class (Or A if I make L10 Master)shooter, because I don't shoot Limited for Classification. That is where I think the flaw is." If it really bothers you that much, you have the option of petititioning USPSA to raise your Limited classification to mirror your L10 classification. I'm sure they'd agree. (Edited by Duane Thomas at 3:24 pm on Jan. 21, 2003) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted January 21, 2003 Share Posted January 21, 2003 "Think about it. What has allowed SASS (cowboy action) to become so popular?" The sport's spirit of camaderie, its lack of a serious competitve vibe, and the fact that you can dress up like a cowboy. "Is your local club dying because it's price tag is too exclusive to let any new life in?" USPSA only requires you to buy one gun and supporting equipment. In Production, if you're a serious gun carrier, you can probably compete using your carry gun/gear and not need to spend one more dime on match equipment. If you think your local USPSA club is expensive, try buying the FOUR guns required as a minimum to compete in Cowboy Action Shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted January 21, 2003 Share Posted January 21, 2003 "I don't know how it is that L10 and Production became known as the "beginner" divisions. Last time I looked they both had GM and D classifications within them. There is no reason for a GM to fell guilty for beating up on a D class shooter, no matter what division it is being done in." I was wondering about that myself. All this stuff about how it's unfair for those god-like Limited shooters to whoop up on those poor, fragile, unskilled, newbie Lim-10 guys. Of course that larger mag well and taper topped mag gives them an overwhelming advantage. Right. Bring your S_I into Lim-10 and you've got to reload just as often as I do - and I have a lot more experience doing it. There do exist, you know, good shooters who compete in Lim-10 with singlestacks just because that's what they like. I can't be the only guy who ENJOYS going up against the fat guns with his singlestack in L10. SERIOUS ego strokes when you can take your .45 and wax some fat gunners. I've heard this guy named Rob Leatham took his singlestack .45 out to this really big match a few months ago, and beat this pretty good shooter named Jerry Barnhart who was running a downloaded .40 doublestack. And I was glad to see it. No offense to Jerry B. but can you IMAGINE the level of whining if Jerry had won Lim-10 with the fat gun? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2alpha Posted January 22, 2003 Share Posted January 22, 2003 The topic seems to have come down to two themes,1 I don't think SS are at a disadvantage and if they are they need to practice more, 2 I like to compete against the fat gunners and if I beat them I get a big ego stroke for winning without the best equipment. I don't think either is good for the sport. Telling someone they should practice more to make up for equipment differences is a good way to send someone to a more 1911 friendly sport. No.2 reminds me of the folks who want to see a match scored with an overall including all divisions so they can brag that they beat somebody while using less equipment. " I beat half the Limited guys with my Production gun ". Big whoop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 22, 2003 Share Posted January 22, 2003 You forgot the third group...the one that wants to dumb down the division so that 100 year old technology has somewhere it is competitive. (tongue-in-cheek) In the process, that knocks me out of the Factory Gun Nationals. Me and every other Glocker that shoots Major. I don't know at what level it is that the 1911 single-stack becomes uncompetitive...but, it certainly is competive up to Master level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted January 22, 2003 Share Posted January 22, 2003 noname, Sorry, but I'm clueless - what's the "PC issue"? Ron, I knew that one was coming... that's a tough one. Okay three divisions in Production, the third being revolver. be Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noname Posted January 22, 2003 Share Posted January 22, 2003 Quote: from benos on 9:48 pm on Jan. 21, 2003 noname, Sorry, but I'm clueless - what's the "PC issue"? Ron, I knew that one was coming... that's a tough one. Okay three divisions in Production, the third being revolver. be Having to shoot 10 rounds has some politically correct (PC) issues associated with it. Some feel that 10 round divisions should be avoided for the same reason headless targets should be avoided, so as not to look like you are caving in to the anti-gun crowd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duane Thomas Posted January 22, 2003 Share Posted January 22, 2003 "No.2 reminds me of the folks who want to see a match scored with an overall including all divisions so they can brag that they beat somebody while using less equipment. " I beat half the Limited guys with my Production gun ". Big whoop." Only if you can do it. Ask Brian sometime how he feels about the concept of heads-up shooting, winner take all no matter the gun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LouSig Posted January 23, 2003 Share Posted January 23, 2003 I’ll chime in and say leave the rules as they currently are. I shoot L10 because it’s uncomfortable for me to keep reaching back to pull the pistol out of the holster in a fast manor. If someone from limited or open wants to come shoot L10 let’em have at it. I don’t see the need to change rules because someone from another division using an expensive handgun wins. If I loose to someone with a different gun, tough, I just need to shoot my gun somewhat better. I just got a 1911 so look out, here I come… ; ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benos Posted January 23, 2003 Share Posted January 23, 2003 noname, I'm with you on the PC thing (thanks for spelling that out), I was bitterly opposed to changing when the mag ban came out myself. But after a few years of reflection, I just think it would be better for the sport overall, or in general. If the majority of the shooters now only had 10 rds in the gun, it would force the course designers to design more shooting-skill-test stages, as opposed to the run-all-over-the-place-spraying-rounds-in-every-direction-type courses that are popular today, as a direct result of the increase in mag capacity. Of course when I say "better for the sport," that's just my opinion. I don't feel, today, that IPSC teaches us how to shoot. Instead it emphasizes equipment, mediocre gun-handling, and gamesmanship. I feel IPSC retained much more of its integrity toward the founding principles in the early days than it does today. But, as you all know, I'm an ol' timer. What was once pure has become heavily watered down, which is the nature of "open" type rules. But now, since we have seen where the equipment race can go, so I feel it would be better if there were less divisions, overall. Hence my feeling of leaving Open class for what it is, and then "tighten up" the other divisions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2alpha Posted January 23, 2003 Share Posted January 23, 2003 Duane, heads up, shoot whatever you brought, and beat all commers is a completely different thing than the attitude I was describing. Maybe BE will explain it to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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