Sam Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 OK, T2 kinda got a neat thing started with the threads about the classic target and one shot per target stages. (Question Authority! Way to go T2!) Now what about making Ltd-10 a bit more interesting? As it stands right now, about the only difference I can see in Limited and Limited 10 is the number of rounds loaded in the magazine. I'd like to see the very same holster and magazine carrier requirements for Lim-10 that are required for Production Division. I like shooting in casual attire. The whole "race costume" is uncomfortable for me to wear all day. I just wear my stuff like that in Limited, because I don't like to give up any advantages at all to my competition. I'm not just grousing here, I think Lim-10 division was a great idea and I applaud USPSA leadership for recognizing that need. I just see a need for a little more incentive to shoot Lim-10 division. A bit more space, between stock and race. (Some gun limitations are probably in order too, but that's a topic for another thread.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jake Di Vita Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 I think doing that would almost make Prod and L10 interchangable. We've already got people saying that L10 is redundant and uneeded, doing this will just be another step towards a pre-existing division. IMHO, if there was to be any change to L10, make it SS only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Merricks Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 I think leaving L-10 as is would be a good idea for now. I would have like to seen it been SS only from the start though. I saw Kyle L win HOA at a club match shooting in L-10 with a carry holster and carry mag pouches so I know it can be done. I don't think change just for the sake of change is a good thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nik Habicht Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 Sam, Combine those restrictions with Single-stack restrictions and I think you got something....... but then I shoot production most of the time now.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheOtherErik Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 IT that were the case Sam, you should just can L10 divison and allow SA pistols in production. I think it is fine the way it is. L10 lets the guys use the racey holsters and makes a single stack just as competitive as a double stack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noname Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 L10 to a single stack division? You will have to define "single stack". Most of us think of the 1911 (1911 Society definition) when you mention single stack, but there are other single stack configurations that may, or may not, offer an advantage to a shooter. Concealed carry gear, ala Production Division, doesn't coordinate that well with the 170mm mag, so, I would say no to the change in gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JFD Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 I like L-10 just the way it is. I don't care if it goes to all single stack since that's what I shoot, but I like the gear options. Make me use Production gear and I'll just take my SS to Limited and feel screwed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 I like the current options...both in equipment and in guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooter Grrl Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 ON THE SOAPBOX L10 was made so that the people that invested in Limited gear but then got screwed by stupid laws would have a place to shoot without buying new gear! Production was made for those that have stock box guns in their closets and could start playing the game with a minimal investment. So do ya still wanna change them? OFF THE SOAPBOX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 Sam's idea has some merit. For one, it would eliminate the Limited shooters who just download their hi-caps so they can go pick on the single stack shooters. If nothing else, I would like to see L10 become single stack only with bushing barrels and short dust covers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbear38S Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 Ditto Shooter Grrl's comments. L10 is fine as is. We can't have a division for every gun/mag/gear/shooter combo out there. The sport just isn't big enough to support it. For one, it would eliminate the Limited shooters who just download their hi-caps so they can go pick on the single stack shooters. That remark is just nonsense. If having a really good gun was the only criteria for winning matches, my finishes wouldn't suck so bad. (Edited by kbear38S at 10:12 am on Jan. 13, 2003) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loves2Shoot Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 kbear38S, In browsing through some big match results, I have seeing B/A class L10 class shooters thump on A/M class L10 shooters because they are A/M Limited shooters. This is absurd to me. You should have the same classification for L10 and Limited. IE. I am an A class L10 shooter with only 5 classifiers in from one match and a special classifier. I am shooting L10 and open this year, but if I want to shoot limited in 3-gun or at the Nationals, I will be B-Class (Or A if I make L10 Master)shooter, because I don't shoot Limited for Classification. That is where I think the flaw is. I think that there are people who download at big matches so they can thump on people in a class lower than their skills. I will being up-loading (actually a different gun) to participate in the Nats and Area 3 gun Championship match and be hosing legit classified Limited shooters, and I think that sucks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted January 13, 2003 Share Posted January 13, 2003 kbear38S: Well, my remark might seem like nonsense to you, but I have seen it done, more than once. Downloading a wide body long dustcover, cone type pistol is indeed a form of equipment racing, not to mention the situation that Loves2Shoot brought up. An A class Limited shooter who downloads his pistol to play in L10 B class can really bring on the whoop ass, whether you want to believe it or not. He/she has all kinds of advantages, but damn poor ethics... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 (Sorry for the drift Sam) The bummer here is that it seems all the High Hit Factors are the same in both Limited and L10. An A-class shooter in Limited likely ought to be A-class in L10. As for the SV/STI shooters having an advantage...the advantage may be that most of them have been in the game long enough to have the experience to win. I also agree with SG on the reasons for L10 and Production. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Posted January 14, 2003 Author Share Posted January 14, 2003 Ha Ha Ha! Man, I expected totally different responses! (Ouch, my butt hurts.) But, I'm not surprised by the calls to make it SS only. And noname makes a good point, there are other single stack guns besides the 1911. Production has to shoot minor, no matter what. I guess that IS my hang up after all......... So, since I still have a small bit of dignity left after that good natured thrashing, here's another question I should have better sense than to ask: (Now, I'm not asking about what the rules say. We can all read the rule book.) So far, I haven't shot a match L-10 with anything except my very stock, single stack Springfield Armory .45. I think the L-10 class was meant to give these guns a place to play. Here's my question, drum roll please. Is it in the best interest of the future growth of USPSA to continue to allow the very same guns (and gear) that compete in Limited Division at the Race Gun Nationals to shoot in L-10 at the Factory Gun Nats? OK, I'm gonna duck and cover now.......(INCOMING!!!) all my love, Sam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 Flemoney: I think Loves2Shoot and I are talking about the folks who haven't played enough in the L10 stomping grounds to have a classification as high as in Limited class. That is a very common occurance. Sam: I don't know enough to address the nats, but I'll tell you what I think about local shoots. The ultimate gamers, in search of an advantage, whether real or imaginary, will continue to escalate the equipment race across all divisions. This will be at the expense of new shooters, and it is not conducive to growth. For instance, suppose you, Kevin, Gerry, Spence and I all shot our Limited rigs in L10 in a local club match in my part of the state. How would the guys feel about that? What is more important, fostering relationships, nurturing the new shooters, and seeing the sport grow, or whooping up on a bunch of L10 single stackers? I think on this board, most folks feel winning, no matter what the cost, is the more important of the two, but I disagree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 No sense in getting worked up just yet. Before we go worrying about that...we might want to wait to see if the 94 "crime bill" and it's 10 round mag limit sunsets. Then again...there are those pesky state laws. As for the Limited race gun shooters coming in to shoot the Factory Gun...bring'em on. I want them to be competiting at their best...not worrying about having to change equipment. No excuse for them when they go down to the power of plastic or the single-stack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam Posted January 14, 2003 Author Share Posted January 14, 2003 That's the spirit Kyle! Behold, The Power of Plastic! Ron-"This will be at the expense of new shooters, and it is not conducive to growth." Thanks! That's exactly the point I was hoping someone would make. And it also explains why you live in a tiny town, quite literally in the middle of nowhere, and still have people driving two hours just to come and shoot with you guys. I 'm all for Open and Limited Divisions being all-out no-holds-barred NASCAR type racing. Tally-ho! But here's the rub, very few will start playing the game by buying a $3,000 open blaster or a $1800 limited gun. The entry level has got to be open to the maximum number of potential shooters. There are millions of handguns in this country. Why are so few people out shooting them for fun? Creating a Production Division was a very wise choice on the part of USPSA. I'm simply stating that L-10 could draw in more new shooters, (who might later buy race guns) if it was protected from the arms and equipment race like Production Division is. Think about it. What has allowed SASS (cowboy action) to become so popular? Is your local club dying because it's price tag is too exclusive to let any new life in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbear38S Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 I have seeing B/A class L10 class shooters thump on A/M class L10 shooters because they are A/M Limited shooters. This is absurd to me. Okay. I agree with that but that's an issue with the classification system and doesn't have anything to do with L10 being single stack only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogmaDog Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 I agree with a lot of what has been said. I think it is pretty cheesy to take your limited blaster and download it in order to shoot L-10, but I haven't seen many people do it. The people who I have seen do it just wanted to get classified in L-10 division, and didn't seem too intent on bullying the no0bs. Most of the people I've seen in L-10 division have been shooting SS 1911s, and most are new/unclassified or C class shooters. I think the clubs I've been shooting at have been doing a good job, by recognizing top shooters in each division, as well as top shooters in each class at the ends of matches--I feel I've been competing against people with similar equipment and skill, and sometimes I do win a ribbon, or a plaque, or $20. That recognition isn't what keeps me coming back, but it does suggest that many or most in the sport do respect new shooters and are willing to mentor them and foster their development. I've also had several shooters with SVI limited guns come up to admire my Kimber Gold Match, saying things like "this is what we all ought to be shooting" in a sort of "get back to our roots" vein. So I haven't seen the sorts of abuses you are wary of, and I think people are competing in L-10 in the spirit in which the division was created, so I suspect the rules, as written, are sufficient. It will also be interesting to see if there is a new brat-pack who come up through L-10, and when they do graduate to Ltd or Open, just have insanely fast reloads and splits, and just SPANK all you Fauntleroys who grew up with SVIs in your hands Semper Fi, DogmaDog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbear38S Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 Downloading a wide body long dustcover, cone type pistol is indeed a form of equipment racing,... He/she has all kinds of advantages, but damn poor ethics... So now people who shoot wide body guns in L10 are cheaters? First, regardless of what illusions you have about what L10 is, it is not a single stack division and never was. If you don't like it, fine - lobby for a rules change and discussion on a forum like this is part of it, but for you to cast derision on people shooting wide body guns in L10 because YOU don't understand the division rules says more about your lack of eithics than theirs. Maybe you should try IDPA. People with your attitude seem to like it there. You can all get together and have a nice IPSC bash and call everybody with USPSA legal hardware cheaters and have a good old time with your single stacks. (Edited by kbear38S at 5:31 am on Jan. 14, 2003) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbear38S Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 But here's the rub, very few will start playing the game by buying a $3,000 open blaster or a $1800 limited gun. The entry level has got to be open to the maximum number of potential shooters. It is. There are precious few C and D shooters in L10 with $3000 limited guns. Are there limited A shooters shooting B L10 with race guns, yes, but again, if that's a problem, it's with the classification system, not that L10 allows high caps. Even if it didn't, you'd still have A shooters whoopin' B shooters because of division crossover --- UNTIL they are properly classified in the new division. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kbear38S Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 Is your local club dying because it's price tag is too exclusive to let any new life in? Actually, in the mid-Atlantic region (not necessarily section), clubs are turning away shooters for monthly matches because they are getting more shooters than they can accomodate. SASS is present in the region and while the matches are well-attended, they are sparce in frequency and geography. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexmoney Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 kbear...play nice. I have tremendous respect for Ron and Sam. Don't paint them into an IPSC bashing corner, that is not who they are...by far. If you read their whole post, you will see they are thinking about the sport and it's future. I can see where Ron's comment on ethics could tick a guy off...I don't believe (hope) he meant it as an insult though. That said...Kbear is right on. Limited 10 isn't for single-stacks only...though it does provide an arena for those that have become proficient in their operation to be competitive. Limited 10 has come about because of government regulation. Even if a shooter wanted/could afford $400-600 for hicaps, some states won't allow it. (and it is Federal gov. regs that make them so expensive...fight the legislation, not fellow shooters). Ron, I don't know all the shooters on your list, but I know that you and Sam are near the top in your state. Would it be safe to assume that the other shooter are up there too? If so, from what you typed, it sounds like you are attributing their sucess to equipment??? Any group that has put in what it takes to win...they will win in whatever division they go to. They are jsut better shooters...classification be damned. Since we are talking about classification...that seems to be the problem. The Limited and L10 classifications for a shooter might ought to be the same. USPSA uses the same hhf to determine them. But, how much of a difference does it make? If a bunch of us "A-class" shooters went to the Factory Gun Nationals last year...we would have all been competiting in B-class. We would all be the same shooters...just a different label. It also sounds like the L10 division is being painted as the division where "no competition" hangs out. It that accurate? Everywhere? What about the old B-class Limited shooter that goes and shoots as a C-class in L10...maybe his motivation is to steal a win of some sort...every now and then? Maybe that helps to retain that memeber...likely a member that helps set the match up and keep it running. If he was an all out competitor, he would be working on what it takes to move up...his reloads, draws, index, movement, making the shot... The gusy he beats, if they want to move up, they will work on the same. Maybe they will come to realize that it isn't the guys equipment that determines his level. Then there are guys like me. If L10 were single-stack only...I likely wouldn't go to the Nationals. Berry, and the FGN, is within driving distance. L10 would allow me to shoot my regular gun and equipment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Ankeny Posted January 14, 2003 Share Posted January 14, 2003 kbear38S: Perhaps I wasn't clear in my previous post. What I am saying is that I feel it is unethical for an accomplished Limited shooter to download his/her mags and shoot in a lower class, in L10 division, for the sole purpose of thumping up on a bunch of folks who are entry level, shooting on a budget, etc. Such actions do not foster good relationships. At the club level, there is more to this sport than just winning at any expense. In this day and age, experienced and mature shooters must not only be competitors but they must also be ambassadors of the sport at all levels. It is necessary to do so if our shooting heritage is to survive. While I am often times full of crap, I do try to do the right thing. I apologize when I am wrong, and I feel like I am an ethical shooter (but kind of gamey), lol. In my view, a person who chooses to compete in L10 with a fat gun and does so with good intentions is an ethical shooter and I wish them the greatest success. My apologies to those good hearted souls who I have offended without regard for their personal belief system. Kyle: You posted while I was typing my reply. I think maybe Sam and I are in a unique position here. The shooters that I listed are all at the top of the heap locally and we all shoot wide body pistols in Limited. Our local clubs are finally growing in numbers and most of the new shooters are coming up through the ranks in L10 with single stacks. My point is that it would be destructive to our recruitment efforts if the better limited shooters invaded L10 with wide body guns. Around here, when an accomplished Limited shooter takes a break and shoots in L10, they almost always do so with a single stack. The more accomplished shooter will still win, but it avoids the whole equipment race issue and it actually encourages new shooters to become proficient with what they already have. Does that make any sense? (Edited by Ron Ankeny at 10:10 am on Jan. 14, 2003) (Edited by Ron Ankeny at 10:14 am on Jan. 14, 2003) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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