EaZeNuTZ33

Did you notice that you typed "Saiga" and "always runs" in the same sentence?

If I've learned anything from .22 ammo on Facebook, it's that supply and demand......blah, blah, blah....PAY ME. So, I'll bring an extra case of Rio low recoil buckshot that I didn't care for and doesn't fit in my caddies well and will be selling it for $120 per round to those who didn't bring enough of miss often! Just kidding. I'll try to toss some extra buck and slugs in my car since I'm driving, If you start to run low hit me up! I should have RIO buck, Win Ranger slugs, and maybe some flight control buck as well. I know I have two 80rd cases of 1300fps Fiocchi buck around here somewhere that I may try to unload while there as well as almost a case of RIO buck.

I'm within driving distance of Sierra Bullets.....and their outlet store. i opted to run one load since my bullets were a smidget cheaper than usual. 155gr Sierra Palms HPBT pills chrono'd around 2800fps out of my 18" barrel. They are SCREAMING and accurate, but luckily haven't shown pressure signs.

just guessing......I didn't take my range finder with me, but 10-12 targets that are at least 150 yards and some targets that aren't on the big side out there as well. If using two types of rifle ammo, 50rds would give you plenty for the drive home if you have to travel through rough neighborhoods

Ken Flood would be who you would want to contact. "Flood" in this thread.

Just to clarify.....when I refer to people as "paid shooters", i do so because I look at them as the customers who are purchasing a product/service you are selling. It is, in no way, a way of saying the RO's do not "pay" their way. If you count the number of hours required of the RO's and considered their match fee as payment, all matches would be in trouble for not meeting minimum wage requirements (for waiters and waitresses)! As for an RO prize table....I play Devil's advocate with myself on this. On one side...it eliminates any concern about cheating, favoritism, and prize table shananigans. On the other side of the argument....the only way to ensure things are "fair" is to have a separate but equal prize table and force all RO's to shoot the same division. The issues that come to mind here is that now you have the top RO's taking guns home who would have taken home much smaller prizes, and not everyone wants to shoot the same division. My best answer here is....make sure you trust your RO's before you allow them to work your match. Their reputation becomes a influence on your reputation after all! Lastly, as for an MD/RM pulling what they want from a prize table ahead of time. Well, rumors have been around about some matches, some MD's, and so on. I'm sure the idea you mentioned there wasn't an original, out of the blue, idea! There have been matches dying (slowly and abruptly) over the last couple years and months, and many people have been vocal about it being a good thing that those matches were dying. "Missing" prizes, guns especially, becomes a major concern for the reputation and longevity of the sport in general.....especially when you must remember that the media would LOVE to get their hands on a story about an AR15 and high capacity happy crowd of right wing radicals magically making guns disappear that were supposed to be transferred on a 4473 to a match participant!

no slugs or buck.....because of how I designed the tower stage, the 400yd target would have been nearly impossible to see/shoot at and would have put the line of fire too close to another stage for my liking. Furthest distance should be in the 300-315yd range.

Kegel exercises may help you a little! Haha

Spots ARE still open!

Rough counts will be 250 pistol, 150+ shotgun, and around 100 rifle. If it were me, I'd bring 200-250 rifle, 200 shotgun, and 300 pistol.......but I miss more than the Miller Bros too!

Stage designs and configurations were finalized today after our monthly match there, so I wanted to give everyone a vague update. ;-) When final round counts come out, rifle will seem low, don't be fooled and be prepared for battle. Pistol round count will seem high....it is, make that lil gun sing. I love shotgun, so expect a highish shotgun round count. There will be a HIGH round count shotgun stage and a HIGH round count pistol stage, come prepared, but I'm betting I can get a sponsor of mine to bring loaner caddies in case you just don't have the gear, if he can't, I will provide my caddies for use on that stage if you don't have enough. I've put a decent amount of time into the match, and it pains me to not shoot the match that was my first big match, so I'm hoping you all come out and have a blast!

That is a good one sentence summary. Jay That can only come into play if you already know the MD/RM, otherwise what you hear is just hearsay. With my experience, that has altered my way of seeing this, I didn't know them then, and NOW won't shoot their match again.

If you want instant credibility for the match without having a well established reputation with the 3-Gun community (like me for instance), you could shoot the match without scoring yourself against the paid shooters or walking the prize table. I'm going to shoot MW3G to proof stages, if scores are kept, they will be written down below the written stage description for all to see and not scored against paid shooters. I've been doing this for barely over 2 years, so i don't have the time in to say my reputation and credibility are beyond reproach yet....but I'm trying to get there! If you have established credibility and a good reputation like you do, you will probably never have an issue with most shooters unless you are placing in a top spot, at which point your reputation should be what saves you with all but the newest shooters. People who have an issue with it may or may not return based upon that. With the way things go when people post anything negatively about a match, they probably will NOT ever let you know why unless you approach them about it.

you said yours does!

exactly.....for me, I'd rather not. Brian Payne is not someone I would question if he were shooting a match he was working.

Hahaha.....to quote a buddy explaining how he was ok with Illinois's gun laws ...."you get used to it eventually"

In a perfect world, I can leave all my guns in my unlocked car while I sleep in a hotel room and not worry about anything. I would only carry my CCW because it feels good against my skin. We don't live in a perfect world. Reputations are built over time as a result of private and public dealings within your niche community, and while a certain amount of trust is initially given, it can be lost or built up.

I think you and I are in about the same mindset on this. I trust MOST people in this sport and wouldn't second guess MOST people's intentions or their finish in a match....but an experience or two changed how I saw things a little. I like the separate prize table idea as well. My only stipulation would be that the RO prize table needs to reflect the shooter's prize table. If there are 30 guns for 300 shooters, there needs to be 10 guns for 100 RO's on their table. I never would have second guessed RO scores before this year....and my concerns that come into play are not that RO's necessarily cheat, but sometimes things change from the RO shoot to the actual match that could destroy RO scores, or make the RO's score much higher than they normally could.

It does suck doing the work and watching everyone else have the fun. Being friends with the guy who runs the Gateway 3-Gun series, we have talked several times about how he almost never gets to shoot his own matches, even to proof them some times. It's still a great match, and a club level match I've driven 5hrs one way to shoot! While I personally feel that not shooting the match gives a little more assurance to the paying shooters that shenanigans aren't present, I think it could be handled on a case by case basis. With you, Brian, I've met and talked to you, and in no way question your integrity when it comes to the match. I have also seen you shoot and know that if you were in the top, it's not because your skill level was overshadowed by cheating! Others, Like Denise and MarkCO, have a reputation that is well known to a core group of shooters who could vouch for them, so I wouldn't question them as much until I got to know them. The point is, if I had never met you or the match admins before, and I showed up to your match where there are TEN high end prizes and the match admins are all in the top ten.....I'm going to question it with myself, and possibly publicly if my questions are shared by others. Up until this year, I wouldn't have questioned it nearly as much as I would now, but experiences change how you look at things, good experiences or bad! Up until this year, the only thing I had ever watched was bad behavior by shooters, not match admin. After that tho, my opinion has less to do with whether or not it's fair for match admin to shoot the match for a score, because I agree that it sucks to not get to shoot a match you've spent countless hours designing and setting. The prize from the prize table situation, is a non-issue IMO, and is no different than someone saying they would skip a GREAT match with a crap prize table to visit a CRAP match with a great prize table....wrong reasons to be at the match and wrong reasons to shoot matches! My opinion is based around whether or not the integrity of the match could be questioned, as well as, if MY integrity could be question. My reputation is worth a LOT more than any bottle of oil, or gun, that would be pulled from a prize table.

I get what your saying....I just can't agree with it. If I'm a shooter who paid an entry fee (or my sponsor paid to the entry) and I have travel expenses in place I can see where someone will claim that the prize table offsets their costs. I also believe that this may be what kills prize tables in the future since the prizes are online for sale the next week. When running a BIG match, setting up, AND walking the prize table....I see at least two areas for possible conflicts of interest. Now, if you aren't taking a top spot and never will, a conflict may never arise since you won't have enough people behind you that would complain. I'm not knocking you at all, just basing it upon what you wrote. To give you an idea of my expenses for MW3G....I'm leaving the hybrid escape at home to drive he F250 this Saturday while pulling the Mule 4x4 behind it and taking my own props to donate to the range, then going again with the same equipment on the 24th to finish working to setup the range and shoot to proof the stages, then out again in the hybrid without guns to be there during the match to make sure the stages are being run as intended. I'm receiving no pay for the match and not shooting the match for a score. I'll be closing my office on the Friday of the match as well. I'm doing it because I want to help.....with no consideration about a return on investment or covering my costs.

I was registered to shoot the Midwest 3 Gun in June, had my division set, my ammo set aside....and I've backed out of the match. I volunteered to help design new stages and set them up. I do not feel it is appropriate to shoot the match for a score, even if I am NOT the Match Director or Range Master.....scoring myself on stages I designed and set up, seems like a marked advantage IMO. I will be shooting the Midwest 3 Gun (no score of course) on May 24th, possibly a little on May 17th as well, in order to proof the stages and make sure there are no glaring issues with the stages before the Range Officers shoot on May 30/31st. I do want to shoot the match, but I also want to look the stages over and make sure of anything extra that may have to be added in the stage description, as I want the stage descriptions to be painfully detailed. For club level and local matches, I would expect an RM or MD to shoot with us and have to make their own ethical decision as to whether or not they include their scores when reporting them....if there are prizes at stake, I would expect them to exclude themselves from that.

Im in pink quite often..... "BA-dum-tis"!

Ya........I'm there!

Come on drink the Kool-ade, I know you want to. . . . . We now sell a side charger upper for your AR, so you can still shoot with the crowd. Just the next step toward the dark side. Let it flooooow through you. There's ruffees in the koolaid, isn't there?

I want something from all of them.....except those Tooth and Nail guys, they only make parts for cheater guns! Looks like a good list so far.