Carmoney

I shot SS minor most of last shooting season--including several sectionals and two area matches--and enjoyed it a lot.

Well if you do that some guy named Carmoney won! You do make a good point about your score vs. Brethour's but for me, just the middle of the pack shooter, the big deal is having fun. My equipment choice isn't really going to make me win, and I doubt at this point that anything else will either, but I can do my best to have a good time and shooting the 8 shot on well designed stages was a blast. Dang Larry, you figured out my plan! But you're right--shooting USPSA matches with an 8-shot revolver is really fun. Seriously fun! It feels like you're shooting the match so much more smoothly, more like it was designed to be shot, and not constantly having to fight to get through the stages with only six rounds between moonclips. Maybe I'm getting old and soft, but lately shooting my 625 has felt like work. Getting to run my 8-shot 27-7 at the Western States match was a tremendous breath of fresh air. I really truly enjoyed it, and that was the main reason I started this thread!

As an interesting historical reference, check out this BE Forum thread from 2005, starting at post #31: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=29440&hl=8&st=25 Obviously, this is not a new discussion! :-)

I believe all on that list shooting Minor were 8 shooters. The interesting thing to me is that Rich B. actually proved that the 6-major option could actually be viable. Ignore Rob's score for a second and look at the results again. Based on previous matches (both USPSA and ICORE), I believe that Rich and I shoot at roughly the same level--we don't have a lot of matches together to compare, but it appears that we're pretty close, OK? I shot my 8-shot 627 scored minor and shot a very good consistent match at Rio Salado on Friday, close to the top of my performance level. Rich was only 7% behind me with his 625. Now, I haven't talked to him and don't know how he felt his match went, but it's obvious that while I beat him with my 627, I didn't exactly blow him out of the water. I truly wish I could go back and shoot the same match again with my 625, and have Breathour shoot it with an 8-shooter, and see how our scores would compare. I have a feeling the difference wouldn't be as much as everybody might think. I have always felt that in good hands, 6-shot major is reasonably close to 8-shot minor. The 6-shot is going to have to be more creative with stage breakdown and reload more often, but those reloads are always going to be a little faster, on average. And yeah, I know 8 rounds is the magic number for avoiding those standing reloads, but minor scoring really sucks. Don't ever underestimate the difference that major scoring makes over a long match. When SS Division was introduced, many people predicted that 10-shot 9mms and .38 Supers would forever dominate the division. Obviously, that turned out to be incorrect, and history has proven that the two options are at reasonable parity with each other at most general USPSA matches, with the edge generally going to the 8-shot major 1911s. I understand that it wouldn't be quite the same in Revo, but I don't think it would be correct at all to say that 625s would never be viable again. I would like to see more non-sanctioned matches where we can test the theory, and I would be happy to participate on either side of the experiment!

Guys, my initial instinct was to fire back at EkuJustice and tell him that his negative and non-constructive remarks are not particularly welcome in this discussion. But on second thought, it occurs to me that this is exactly what people tend to think when they see only one or two wheelguns at a local match, or maybe half a dozen at a sectional or area match, or a lousy 17 at nationals! Can we really blame them for thinking that way, when we do look an awful lot like a "dead division" at the moment?

We have bounced this topic off the wall here on the BE Forum for many years, but the discussion has been gaining some real traction lately. I think it's worth a fresh conversation. The current USPSA equipment rules only accommodate 6-shot revolvers. Stated more accurately, the rules only allow 6 rounds to be fired between reloads. This has created a situation in which the moonclip-fed S&W 625s and 25-2s overwhelmingly dominate the division, due to their fast reloads and capability of making major power factor with relative ease. Unfortunately, despite the efforts of many of us here, Revolver Division has not been flourishing at any level of USPSA lately. It has reached the point that at our last national championship, only 17 competitors showed up with their wheelguns. Quite frankly, it was an embarrassment, and I think most of us would agree that something needs to be done about it. So here is the question: Should USPSA's leadership consider changing the rules to allow 8 rounds to be fired between reloads, at the penalty of minor scoring? Would more people find it fun to play our game in Revolver Division with an 8-shooter, particularly at the lower to medium skill levels? Would such a rule change have the potential to reinvigorate the division and allow us to be a more viable and sustainable part of USPSA?

Nothing personal, guys. It's certainly possible that I may be wrong about the judgment and capability of your individual children. But in general, I don't like to see kids that young shooting in a discipline that involves drawing from a holster and complex shooting on the move. With an 8- or 9-year-old, you just never quite know what is going to happen when there is a split-second lapse of attention. Somewhere around 11 or 12, and only after they have been thoroughly trained in gun-handling and safety, some kids reach a point where they are capable of handling a centerfire handgun and emotionally predictable enough to be shooting in USPSA/IPSC competition. (And plenty of kids are not ready even then.) As a civil defense attorney, I live and work in a world where liability, negligence, and risk management must always be considered. If not, we deal with the consequences after the fact. And it sometimes gets pretty ugly.

Tell that to Max Michel and Eric Grauffel. They both started at 7. Max was winning local matches at 10 - 11. It all depends upon the kid. Mine has been shooting for 3 years, handguns for 1. He is shooting local matches with me with a 22 with a dot. He is beating a few shooters here and there as well. If the kid wants to, and can be safe, let them shoot. (Assuming it is ok with your club members). To say that 9 is too young is to throw way too big of a blanket statement at such a subjective subject. It's not about age. There are 60 year olds in our club who shouldn't be shooting. It's not about shooting skill, it's about judgment. While I would agree that every kid develops differently (and some never do, like those 60 year olds at your club), 9 year olds simply aren't ready to handle handguns out of the immediate reach of a supervising adult. I believe it is irresponsible and negligent to allow a child that young to shoot USPSA/IPSC, and I believe I have the experience in both shooting and parenting to make such a statement. The problem is that parents' judgment can be clouded by their eagerness to have their kids involved in their favorite activity. Understandable. And unfortunately, other shooters won't always speak up. The consequences of being wrong are too severe.

earplug, it's definitely a new one on me. Maybe S&W started farming out that part to Taurus. ;-)

Ha! We used to call those "Spook/Dan-style reloads," but both of those guys seem to have dropped off the face of the earth. There are still a fair number of us who actuate the extractor with the weak hand.

Good advice from Waltermitty on this thread.

Does anybody have a video (or link to one) showing a good wheelgunner doing a weak-hand reload while keeping the gun in the strong hand, with a speedloader? Bubber? Anyone?

Found this also:

Absolutely true. It was Hercules and Bullseye. Assuming Alliant still has it at their factory, that original sample batch is now 100 years old! I learned this during the deposition of a retired Hercules product manager who said, "Hell, I was there!" (or words to that effect).

Ahh, yet another reason to keep the gun in the strong hand while reloading!

I don't think there's any practical difference in the accuracy capability between 9mm and .45 ACP. We all know that .45 ACP has high intrinsic accuracy potential in the 1911 platform. But then again, Les Baer can make 1911s in 9mm that are proven and guaranteed to shoot 1.5" at 50 yards. You can't really ask for much more than that.

Ramped or non-ramped 9mm 1911s should feed hollowpoints with complete reliability. Some guns, particularly the Filipino manufactured models like my STI Spartan 9mm, may require some contouring of the throat/ramp area, depending on the cartridge length and bullet shape you are using. (That can be true of 9mm 1911s with ramped barrels, also. My Les Baer 9mm needed some throating work to feed the stubby 9mm JHPs I like to use.) The "hollowpoint chewing" issue only relates to pistols with aluminum frames. I had that exact issue with an aluminum framed 1911 in .45 caliber. The problem was solved by installing an EGW steel ramp insert, but machining the frame to accept a ramped barrel would have done the job also. Steel framed 1911s will not be damaged by JHPs or SWCs--many of us here shoot countless thousands of these bullet profiles through our non-ramped guns with no problems at all.

I want this guy to be our historian.

Obviously, it's an assault hammer. What possible legitimate sporting purpose could such a fast hammer possibly have?

Congratulations Kim!!

Just talked to Kathy this afternoon. She has 70 entries, with more applications en route. Plenty of slots still available right now--they can accommodate 120 wheelgunners. But I wouldn't expect to walk on-- the match could quite possibly fill up.

There are 120 slots for the match. As of this afternoon, about 70 of those slots are filled, with more applications en route.

Word on the street is that the Single Stack Nats is getting slammed with entries. Hmmmm....wonder what could be different this year?? ;-)

Can someone tell me the place on the forum were they have all the gun's for sell?

Why? Even if the match doesn't fill up, it's going to be such a huge improvement over the previous Revo Nats, Phil can count it as a huge success. I'm in, by the way: Mike Carmoney, M, Iowa. Sam decided to shoot the match also, so I'm sending his form in this week: Sam Carmoney, A, Iowa.