Carmoney

This is awesome!! I can't wait!!

Unfortunately, that was one of the known problems with the original 625-2 "Model of 1988" variation. The chambers were notoriously tight on those guns. They fixed it very early in the 625-3 run, and then the tight chambers reappeared early in the 625-8 variation. I recommend reaming the chambers to correct SAAMI specification. Anybody who works on competition revolvers should be able to handle this--otherwise, the reamer is available from Brownell's.

Just so everybody understands my motivations here.....I personally would benefit from the rules staying the same. I generally finish in the Top 5 at Nationals, and I have won a whole bunch of sectional and area matches in Revolver Division. It was fun. But then participation started to drop off. Last year I could have shot Revolver at Area 3 and Area 5 and easily won them both. I could have breezed my way into two more plaques and two more prize guns. But they would have been virtually uncontested victories, and what would that mean? So I shot SS instead, and got beaten by better SS shooters, but at least there was real competition. The perverse truth is that attracting more shooters into Revolver Division does not personally benefit the current upper-level Revolver shooters, including me. But the overall health of the division is more important than the self-interest of a few people, and that's why I think we need to start getting creative and find some real ways to grow it. I think 8-minor has the potential to attract more people to Revolver, but I'm open to pretty much anything at this point.

No, I'm just trying to figure out if you have any skin in the game here. My other thread was intended to gather information to determine whether there is a "rational argument" to change the rules and allow 8-minor. It includes a poll (which strongly indicates that more people would shoot the division if they could run 8-minor) and suggests testing and provisional acceptance before making any permanent changes. I think it's a rational approach. The goal is to make Revolver Division more fun and grow our numbers. This separate thread is to respond to those who say that Production is a viable place for 8-shot minor revolvers to be competitive.

diehli, do you even compete with a revolver?

Wrong thread, diehli. This is a discussion about whether 8-shot revolvers are competitive in Production Division. I contend they are not.

This issue arose on the other thread where we are discussing the pros and cons of possibly adding the 8-shot minor revolver as an option for Revolver Division. Several responders in that discussion suggested that the place for 8-minor revolvers is Production Division. I thought it was worthy of a separate discussion, hence this new thread..... Blueridge, I think you've been breathing too many exhaust fumes off your Ruger Alaskan again. ;-) Take two competitors of roughly equal capability, and have one shooter run the match with an 8-shot revolver. The other guy shoots with a Production-legal autoloader. I contend the guy with the auto is going to win virtually every time. Unlike many of the active revolver shooters on here, I compete a lot in Production and Single Stack divisions. I know how those divisions compare to Revolver. I'm also willing to put my money where my mouth is. I'm a A-class shooter in Production, OK? So I'm a decent shooter in Production, but nothing particularly special. Here's my challenge: I'll shoot any 2013 major USPSA match with my XD9 heads-up against anybody who is willing to shoot an iron-sighted 8-shot revolver in Production Division, and I'll willing to put $100 on it. Jerry Miculek and Rob Leatham might beat me. But those guys are at least 10-15% ahead of me in Revo. Saddle them with 8-shot 627s and moonclips and give me a 10-shot pistol with a sweet trigger and faster reloads, and I'll still give them a very decent run for it. I think I can beat everybody else. Who wants to take me up on my challenge?

Because 8-shot Revolvers are never going to be seriously competitive in Production, at anything other than the local schlep level.

Cliff, you might be right. Now, I'm not completely sold on the notion that 8-minor would instantly overwhelm the division, and have been musing over that issue ever since that first discussion thread back in 2005. I would like to put the concept to a real test before jumping to that conclusion. But for a moment, let's assume you're 100% right, OK? Cliff.......buddy.......We need to completely change the division!! Or it's gonna die. We all know how participation in Revolver division has sucked balls the last few years. Last year, USPSA Revolver Nationals drew 17 people--that's like one squad! You hardly see any revolvers at the local levels. Most of the sectionals and area matches went virtually uncontested in Revolver division. It's frustrating, disappointing, and embarrassing, but it's true. Maybe the new format in Barry will save the division. I'm really excited about having so many more people at Nats. But if that enthusiasm doesn't carry over, and trickle down, we need to figure out something else. I'm glad you responded to this thread. You and I have discussed the topic off-forum, and I respect your thoughts on the topic. And I understand we don't have unanimity of opinion from the top revolver shooters on this.

Well then, would you cut away this hammer or find another hammer. The hammer installed looks Frankenstein-ish. The gun will probably live its entire life,eventually dieing on an ICORE field (or USPSA if things change). I don't know if it matters much about cutting this one up, or throwing another Pro hammer in there that I then cut that one up. Or maybe just call Apex and install one of there's. What are your thoughts? I don't know if a regular N-frame would work, or if a Randy hammer would work. Guess you could figure it out pretty quickly! Those were the very first centerfire S&W revolvers (other than maybe those weird Model 53s) to have the frame-mounted firing pin system, and the version they used on those early guns may not be the same as current production. If you're going to shoot the gun a bunch (and I would if it were mine), I'd go ahead and cut it down. But that's me.

Dude, nice gun! That's one of the early Lew Horton 6.5" barrelled 627s, which is a rare and desirable variation.

During the last week I was flying out of the Des Moines airport, and happened to see a veteran police officer in a Des Moines Police Department uniform with a S&W 686 and speedloaders on his belt! It does my heart good to know that there are still a few bona fide law enforcement guys out there who still choose to report to duty with their trusty wheelguns. It was sorta like spotting a bald eagle in the sky.

I am very curious to see which of the well-known GMs from other divisions have signed up to shoot the 2013 Revo Nationals. Rob will be there, and I know Shannon Smith will be there. Who else? To tell you the truth, I really respect anybody who is willing to stick his neck out and shoot this match with equipment that is so different than what he normally shoots in competition! On the other hand, at the end of the day, shooting is still shooting. The top GMs all know how to get through a stage efficiently, and they know how to hit what they're aiming at. This is going to be a great match, and I'm really looking forward to being part of it.

Rob's proposal is very interesting to me. I have very little personal experience with handgun optics, and frankly have very little interest in shooting with any sort of scope on a handgun. However, over the past couple of years, I have started to notice my vision really beginning to decline, in both pure acuity and in flexibility of focus. I'm nowhere near the point where my eyesight is killing my shooting game, but I can see it coming down the road. The real issue is what is "good for the game." Although we all want to see lots of fresh young shooters entering the world of USPSA/IPSC competition, the unfortunate reality is we are an aging group. As an organization, we should strive to bring new shooters, especially young shooters, into the fold. But we better also be thinking very seriously about how to retain our older guys, y'know what I mean? Every marketing study will show that it's far easier to retain a current customer than it is to attract a new customer. If an older shooter with gradually failing vision is at the point where it's just no fun to try to shoot with iron sights anymore, but wants to compete against other Revolver shooters, other Production shooters--whatever the division--and he's willing to forego actual division recognition in favor of just running against the other seniors and super seniors for category recognition, what could it possibly hurt? It seems like it would allow those guys to have fun and stick around and shoot the divisions they like to shoot (which for many people, will be something other than Open), while still preserving the integrity of the various equipment divisions and the "real results." This is certainly something that deserves a serious look.

Excellent ideas.

Cool, Dave! Let's try to get it done this summer.

Although I suspect this conversation will continue, the votes on our poll have slowed down enough to get a decent read on how people feel. I think I may have screwed up the poll questions a little--because of the way I worded the responses, I suspect we had some people click the "no" option purely because they never shoot revolver anyway, regardless of any rule change. What I meant to catch were the people who are currently shooting 625s who would actually slow down or stop shooting Revo altogether if the rule changed to allow 8-minor. My bad on possibly skewing the results with poor wording. Nevertheless, it is obvious that a very clear majority of us (i.e. BE Forum participants who frequent the Revolver Sub-Category) like the idea of trying a rule change to allow 8-minor, at least provisionally. Still, there have been articulate arguments made on all sides of the discussion. I think the next step is to find or create a "major match" (something like the MMC?) and allow 8-minor on a provisional, non-sanctioned basis, take a bunch of photos, and write up an article in Front Sight. The article could explain the "experiment" and encourage responses from the readership. This would allow USPSA to generate some reaction from the revolver shooters out there who are not active here on BE. It would also create some fresh exposure for revolver shooting in the magazine, which would be good either way.

Now see, I think you might have just jumped the shark, because you're arguing from pure personal preference. I'm enjoying the heck out of my 686 practice but that's probably due to the new factor. Scientifically, what are the SSR vs. ESR numbers in IDPA? That should give us an idea of interest in a proportional sense. Matt, I'm not pushing this out of personal preference, although I understand it may have sounded that way. However, I may be making a mistake in assuming that most other shooters would share my preferences and find it more fun to shoot USPSA matches with 8-shot minor, less fun to shoot 6-shot major, and no fun to shoot with speedloaders. Maybe it was just the novelty of finally getting to run my 8-shooter in Revo at a (non-sanctioned) USPSA match, but I just loved doing it! At the end of the day, I'm fine with whatever helps the division flourish. Whatever gets the numbers up to the point that we can have good healthy competition at all levels--that's what we need. I am hopeful that all the interest in our stand-alone Nationals will trickle down and make that happen.

I'm looking to make revolver division more fun to shoot! I like a challenge, but I think pulling all my fingernails out with channel-lok pliers would be more fun than shooting a friggin' K-frame with speedloaders at a major USPSA match. On the other hand, I really enjoyed running my 627 with minor loads at the WSS revo match last weekend. Man, it was fun! If we can make Revolver more fun to shoot--then we have the potential not just to attract ICORE shooters, but everybody from all the different games and divisions.

Rob most of us do have our names in our profile, can't really say why we use our avatars but there are so many Dave Williams it gets confusing. I'm looking forward to this year Revo Nats also, no way I'll place as high as in the past but just being among that many Revolver Competitors especially a lot of NOT the usual suspects and top quality competitors to boot will be worth it. Seems I saw you win the Bianchi Cup with a Revolver and I'd almost bet you'll wear out that 625 before the Nationals! Just Finished peening the cylinder stop notches on one of my 625's, again.... I think it's the dry firing more than the actual live shooting as I practice more often with the 8 shooters due to reduced recoil. The idea for the stand alone Nationals came up at the SS Nationals last year (I had a little free time after I got myself DQ'd). When I talked to Phil, he thought it seemed like a good idea. We met with Metcalf who said USPSA could run it at PASA in conjuntion with the SS Nationals, Phil took it to the board and bang, done! When the discussion comes up about higher round count minor caliber, the options appear to be 7 or 8 rounds. I personally think that 7 should be the number but that makes little sense when you look at how many models are available. I'LL bet few would take the minor hit just to get 1 more round. That wouldn't help nearly as much as 8 which gets you another whole paper target. 8 seems to make more sense as that is far more common and currently the gun of choice for ICORE, which is seen as a much more active revolver group than USPSA. Getting an 8 shot minor is easier than a 5" 625 ya'all. Several models of 8 shooter are currently being produced, no more 5" 625's are offered. Maybe it should be 7minor? I do own a 686+? I think Apex makes a hammer for the L frame...... New project? Ya, I change my mind. I want 7 shot minor now!!! Great historical info thanks Rob. You make very good points. Ok you sold me, a change is needed let's take the next step into the dark side. I'm foolish enough to try it with a 625 for a year, heck I beat Carmoney at last years Area 3 with my Major SS against his Minor SS. First time I beat him with the gun of his choice I think! Of course forgetting one whole target array might have had something to do with it. He got so wrapped up in gaming one stage with his 10 shot he just got lost with the rest of the course. OOOOH, Sounds like a challenge Mike! The history lesson is to show that good ideas can be advanced pretty quickly if they make sense and are actually do-able/easy to make happen. I think you'll be hearing from Carmoney! Pskys2 knows I will shoot against him heads up, anytime, anywhere, any equipment, for any amount of cash!

Happy birthday to Sam, and John Maxwell also!

Exactly. Very well put.

I would like to see the BOD approve the 8-minor option on a provisional basis for a year. That would give us a great opportunity to see how it works out. If that doesn't pan out, then the next best choice would be for a bunch of us to converge on a few key matches where we can get the concept approved, like we did at Rio Salado last weekend, and test the concept further. I would really like the opportunity to prove to you guys that 6-major is not nearly as far off 8-minor as many of you seem to think.

Many parents have a hard time being objective about the capabilities and safety of their own kid. It's perfectly natural and normal. I remember how fun it was to introduce my own two kids (who are adults now) to the world of competitive shooting! Looking back, I hope it never made any of my shooting friends uncomfortable, but I really have no way of knowing because I was caught up in the whole thing and was not capable of being objective in that situation either. Steel Challenge style shooting is an excellent choice for the younger children who already have the basics down. Let USPSA (or similar) matches be a special prize for the kid to look forward to when he or she turns 11 or 12, assuming the kid is ready at that point.

USPSA used to have data on how many classifiers were shot in each division, etc., which might give us a decent idea of the number of active wheelgunners. I spooled around on the website for a few minutes and couldn't find it, though. Anybody know where to look? I'll bet you're right about the highest proportion of active shooters competing at Nationals this year, compared to the other divisions. Just having a stand-alone (OK, sorta stand-alone) Revolver Nationals is a big deal. Big. Deal.