hopalong

Thanks Troy !!!!!

YEE-HAA Sam Is getting a new gun, now just remember to tell him he doesn't need to whip all our butts imediately. YES I TOO WAS QUITE MAD THAT MY NEW 646 HAD JUST BEEN ELEMINATED AS A USEABLE GUN IN IDPA, WHAT REALLY SHOULD HAVE HAPPENED IS THE SPLIT OF THE DIVISION (THAT WAS REALLY NOT NEEDED) BE DONE BY WEIGHT NOT MOONCLIP VS. SPEEDLOADERS. Can't wait to see Sam go with the 646, pretty good with the old gun with a little time ........... it may keep me from sleeping correctly for the next few months Well, my 646 will see service with ICORE and if I ever learn how to shoot ALL A's then I may do the same as Young Sam Carmoney! Hopalong / Sam Keen

YEE-HAA Sam Is getting a new gun, now just remember to tell him he doesn't need to whip all our butts imediately. YES I TOO WAS QUITE MAD THAT MY NEW 646 HAD JUST BEEN ELEMINATED AS A USEABLE GUN IN IDPA, WHAT REALLY SHOULD HAVE HAPPENED IS THE SPLIT OF THE DIVISION (THAT WAS REALLY NOT NEEDED) BE DONE BY WEIGHT NOT MOONCLIP VS. SPEEDLOADERS. Can't wait to see Sam go with the 646, pretty good with the old gun with a little time ........... it may keep me from sleeping correctly for the next few months Well, my 646 will see service with ICORE and if I ever learn how to shoot ALL A's then I may do the same as Young Sam Carmoney! Hopalong / Sam Keen

JFD hit the nail on the head: USPSA is a brand, and we are identified in the marketplace as a "race gun sport" This must be changed and it all started with the gun rags several years ago and has not been altered not even in our own Front Sight is there anything much to change it, you looked at the front covers? (front covers get the attention) Revolver in USPSA is a Challenge to say the least, more reloads, less room for error( Must make all shots count ) Stage breakdown is Completely different than with any other gun, intimidating to someone just beginning in the game would be an understatement if there ever was one. It takes a different type of person to WANT to shoot revolver competitively in USPSA, I started with a Limited gun and shot it for 3 years, had fun would not change anything if I had the chance, but learning to do the things with a revolver that I never even thought I could do with an Automatic is still blowing my mind. Rob or Gary if you guys read this maybe some discussion between some of the "chiefs" and not just the "indians" Marketing, Marketing, Marketing Hopalong / SAM KEEN

Sestock, No offence meant and none taken but... Do you shoot revolver? Do you shoot revolver at Major Matches? When at a Major Match (USPSA) with Vendors and Sponsors ect have you ever seen any type of Revolver stuff ???? Only the truly dedicated revolver shooters are going to shoot them because of several reasons.... 1 and this is quite possibly the biggest... the people that shoot both will most of the time shoot an automatic because there are more there already and they want to shoot against some competition. 2: the few others that shoot both will most of the time shoot an automatic because they think in terms of an automatic reading stages and don't realize that your stage procedures are COMPLETELY different with a revolver than with any type of auto with more than 6 rounds. 3: The Auto is the KING now days, back in the 60s and 70 the revolver was the KING and Marketing is geared toward the Autos now. 4: IF USPSA wants more participation in Revolver division it (US club members and up) would try to promote it in some kind of way to get more interest in it, maybe add a provisional "open Revolver" division to see if that picks up more participation. Or like FT. Smith Arkansas have a "annual "revolver friendly match" Only USPSA Nationals had more revolver shooters in it than that match but only by 4 Enough there on that. BUT just ask the same 3 questions to 97% of the USPSA shooters ( revolver division was 3% of the shooters at 2004 Nationals) and see what you get. I have shot 2 USPSA nationals...2003 Factory gun and 2004 Handgun and have yet to see any kind of Revolver vendor, Sponsor, Advertising, or anything of the like. In 2003 I shot L-10 but was quite aware of the surroundings, it was a Factory gun Nationals, you would think the HOST Sactioning body would promote one of the three divisions represented better than that. USPSA has dropped the ball on Marketing the "other divisions" as when you ask someone around where I live if they have heard of anything other than the race guns they say no, so then have to explain to them that yes they can go get their "cabinet drawer" gun and come shoot that they don't need all that stuff. But IMHO USPSA has never picked up the ball on the Revolver division aside from adding it to the divisions (but remember to look at my signature about opinions). I have a small suggestion to USPSA or anyone on the BoD that may help get more competitors at the Nationals.... Have 2 nationals Race gun, Open, Limited, L-10 (because most of the L-10 shooters use race rigs) and then a Factory, Production and Revolver and have the "provisional L-8 division and Open Revolver division" allowed to shoot to add numbers of Participants. JUST an IDEA... But back to the orginal programming. If We(USPSA) promoted revolver shooting as much as Auto shooting there would be plenty of revolver shooter to go around.... The Idea of a 30+ round stage with a revolver that only shoots 6 at a time will scare the HELL out of even some good shooters much less anyone just getting interested in the game...... Sorry for the long post and the drift but that's my story and I'm sticking to it. Hopalong / SAM KEEN

Round gun shooter, I must Disagree, the reason it is considered gaming is that the speedloader users don't want to have to practice to keep up It is considered gaming the same as a Single stack gun is considered harder to reload than a double stack gun is in USPSA I don't know who said it but in the L-10 vs "provisional Division" string someone said it is "skill level" and Flexmoney also hit it with his " I don't believe in the equipment crutch " AMEN BROTHER Those words also fit in this catagorie. Sorry guys/gals but that is just the way it is. AND if you want to talk "real world" let me ask you this.... If you were carrying a revolver for Defensive purpose and had to use it.... If a reload was NEEDED would you rather have the GAMER gun or the SPEED LOADER gun.... I will answer that for most.... THE ONE I AM MOST FAMILIAR WITH !!!!!!! so there you are it all boild BACK down to SKILL LEVEL !!!!!!!! Hopalong Firewalker you GAMER

Bill. I use 625 for USPSA and IF I shoot any IDPA with a Revolver it will be the 610, I always shoot Major loads just use cheaper components for practice vs. Major match loads. (even before IDPA went with PF in ESR I still shot Major in the 610 just because that was what I was used to ) Can't answer your question about 686, but if it was me I would load me up some 145,000pf and get used to that and then step up to the 165,000 two or three weeks before your major match. My 646 4 inch gun (a little lighter than your 686) is uncomfortable with 165,000 PF loads, I can shoot it and can control it but I really don't want to have too much arthritis in my wrist in my "remember when" days so that is why the 610 will get the use. Hope that helps ! SAM

I have to concurr with Firewalker on Both of his observations !!! Anybody that has shot revolvers very long now knows Smith and Wessons have the best Actions and definately do after some work. I originally started Shooting IDPA with a GP100 and Safariland comp II loaders and have let it go to another so he could try the game of shooting... No competitions for him yet but maybe. ( I liked my Gp100 though ) Now I am down to shooting some junky old Smiths, 625 in USPSA and either 610 or 646 in IDPA and since there is going to be a PF of 165,000 in the division these guns fit in the obvious choice is the 610 as it handles recoil much better, the 646 is almost uncomfortable with Major loads. (Thanks Bill and others wanting to split SSR, I just bought the 646 specificly to shoot in IDPA) Might pick up one of the old 686 guns to play with if I shoot IDPA much anymore (kind of doubt it though) but another gun sounds good ! Good luck at Sturms Frederick Hopalong

Hi Allen ! What kind of wheel gun Blaster did you get ???? Talked to Curtis the other day, said no tactical 3 gun for the spring but most likely a tactical Rifle and then 3-gun in the fall. You planning on shooting the wheel gun much or is this a "project" ? NTPS is having a special Classifier next month I am planning on going will have wheel gun but will also have GLOCK for Production, Need to get that % up to B class that way the percentage fits where they have me classed. Hang in there with the round blaster, speed loaders are just a quick as moonclips if you practice and be patient.... Kind of like Single stack is just as quick as Double stack if you practice. Will see you on the range some where, some time. Sam

Revchuck, the load in question was not a major load, makes 130 pf in the 610 have not checked the 646 for pf. when I was shooting 610 for every thing (USPSA and IDPA) I had Practice loads of 167 PF using 180 grn TC lead bullets on top of TG it was good load in Para and just kept using in 610 for practice too. This load is like justintyme says, black cylinder at the end of a good shooting session and if you did not brush it out every now and then the moonclips would not go all the way back in, same kind of situation with 646 mostly but just every now and then they won't budge for a small instant when pushing on the ejector rod. (now that I have polished the cylinder holes) Could be slightly streched brass causing contriction at the chamber end inside the cylinder as I don't normally trim pistol brass. have been using Dillion resizing die for .40 S&W for 3 years now and have had no problems but am thinking of getting a Lee to see if that does any difference. Spook, Sweet trigger? no more of that 8 pound stuff is it? Hope you get it worked out would like to see how you and MR. Miculek stack up with both of ya'll equipent running the way you want it. SAM

Way to go man !!!! Keep up the good work.

Cy, I you have 2 guys at the same skill level shooting ss vs. ds then if they truly are at the same skill level the size of the mags don't matter as they both will be able to do the same speed of reloads. Let Gary and Rob and the BoD try this out for a year, if it obviously brings in more shooters and had good participation, make it permanent. If not get rid of it. Plain and simple. Then the next year try OPEN - 8 or even 10 or try Open Revolver, Autos have their Open Division why not revos? But an Open 8 would give both the SS guys/gals somewhere to shoot their red dot guns AND the 8 shot revolvers too. And as far as fast reloads go how about SPOOK???? seems like he had a 1.29 with one of them there REVOLVERS !!!!!! the key words here are PRACTICE and WANT TO !!!! Hopalong

I'll shoot with you with my 600 dollar smith & wesson revolver, 40 dollar holster and 20 dollar mooncipholders and 1.25 dollar moonclips anytime..... Might not win overall at a major match, or a club match for all that matters but I bet there is some FUN had that day..... Now let see... 600+ 40+ 100(5 mooclip holders)+ 12.50 (10 moonclips) = $752.50 OR I can use the 450 Dollar S&W relvolver my 200 dollar CRspeed rig (won at a match for ROing) the same moonclip holders and more moonclips. Now lets see.... 450 + 45 (gas to go back and forth to the match that I worked) 160 (8 holders on this rig) and 25 (more moonclips) 450+45+160+25= $680 HM..... BOTH rigs gun and all under $1000 bucks Now the big deal.... last year 8 major matches average money spent (all expenses) 1200 bucks Rant mode ON: (Nationals was a KILLER with 6days and Nights Hotel) Rant Mode OFF: before anyone says "too much" this includes time off work as there is no such thing as paid Holidays and paid Vaction in my line of work.... any way let see..... 1200x8 = $9600.00 bucks no matter how you do the math now if you don't make any major matches things change slightly: for me: Gas to Memphis and back 30 Bucks, 200+ rounds of ammo ($.07 each) gatoraid or similar 3.00 +/- 12 bucks match fee... lets see.... 30+14+3+12= 59 bucks x 2 (twice a month) = 118 bucks a month x 7 = $826 a year just to go shoot memphis matches Also have home club matches 1 USPSA, 1 Open steel run under uspsa rules (basicly) 30-40 bucks a match 12 times a year $480 a match a year =$960 or so. now last year I went through 35,000+ ammo at .07 apeice = $2,450 shot so without including any Major match info the total is... $4,236 basicly Half what I paid for the 8 Majors So ther you are.... it boils down to how much you want to shoot... my USPSA stuff is 90% IDPA legal (or was) and if I want to limit my shooting to just around the house I could make it a year with about 5 grand spent. but: I really enjoy going and shooting, and meeting the other great folks I have come to know as a result of my travels and don't regret one penny spent. Can I shoot USPSA as cheap as I could shoot IDPA ? YES and that is where our (USPSA) organization is lacking.... not only at the high level but mid-level and even local club level to a certain extent. Sorry about the Long post, hope is clears up some of the water but I though some numbers would help. Hopalong

Hi, GmanCdp.... Welcome to the Forums..... See you Sunday at the steel match..... Bring Warm Clothes...... NOW back to the original programing.... I have been thinking of shooting my Wheelgun in L-10 because no one comes and plays in Wheelgun division with me so this BS about fat guns being faster than SS guns can stop any time. FACT: a 1.25 reload with a fat gun vs. a 1.40 reload with a Skinny gun is NOT where matches are won.... Matches are won figuring out the fastest way through the stage, Point A to point B, NOT hitting any NO-shoots and not dropping many points if any!!!! Does there need to be a SS division? Don't know let Gary and Rob and the BoD try the "provisional Division" for a year, keep the rules simple no race type holsters 8 rnd mags (all calibers) and go from there. After a year of that then they can try OPEN -8 for a year, I have been hearing that for a while too, then the 8 shot round guns can come play too. Just my .02 cents worth. Hopalong

Spook, Funny thing you bumped this thread.... Finished Flitzing the 646 and the clyinder bores are really shinny now, have shot it in 1 IDPA match (about 100 rounds) and used lead just to see if it would stick... the last one stuck at the end of the match and the gun was pretty dirty, must have been some of the tite group loads for the Browning Hi-power. (Contrary to popular belief, Titegroup and Lead is DIRTY) Have not shot "clean" stuff through it to see how long it takes to stick, if it does at all as the loads I have that are clean are really clean. Before I did the Flitz job the brass would stick after shooting it maybe 15-20 shots so it definately did help. I did not use nickle brass either, but that does make sense. hope it helps Spook... USE the old Faithfull and just have the other as a Backup... SAM

Yes Spook, I agree now that you showed me the math... He would be finished by the time I get my gun back on target. Whew now I'm getting there. Good Shooting. SAM

We all have heard about Clays, it is a High pressure powder and making 170 or so PF is on the top end of the pressure ceiling but it works great for MINOR or somewhere in between. AND .45ACP Major, CLEAN too. For MY .40 S&W I use Winchester Super field, just a little dirty but no pressure problems (Making Major) that is under lead 175 semis for Auto and 180 TC(almost pointed) for Revolver. For MAJOR Matches I go to Montana Gold 180 FMJ hp for the auto and for the wheel gun Precision 155 RN and VV 320 for powder for both. VERRY CLEAN and real consistant too. The Idea of a 180 grn RN is apealling for sure but I avoid lead for Major Matches just to help the clean factor, Practice is another thing. SAM

This is how it was explained to me in the past... If you are A class... 20 bucks go to USPSA 20 bucks go to overall 60 bucks go to A class If you are only A class then you get all 80 bucks back if you win overall plus the 20 bucks per person in all the other classes. If there are 2 A class and you win A class only then you get 120 bucks if the overall winner isn't the other A class so basicly it is like this: Win your class you get 60 bucks per person in the class Win the overall you get 20 bucks per person only.... unless you are the only one in your class then you get your 60 bucks back too. so if there are lots of B class shooters (like this year) and you win overall you get 20 bucks from everyone but the 2nd B class wins the Class and he get 60 bucks per person in B class. Oh yea, if you go up in class the money follows you into the next class. HOPE that makes the water more muddy. SAM BUT High overall gets a "special Trophy"

Have a favor to ask of someone..... I have in the past tried to organize an entire match, prize table included and was not working at the time and just barely had enough time in the day to get it done. I am asking for a prize table/sponsor organizer for the "Southern Nationals" as I will not have the time to do that and work and get every thing else lined up. It is either that or No prize table and or Sponsor $$$$ to help payback as there will be payback for sure. Have been debating with myself about trying to make this match a level III match and award Nationals slots to any division that has 20 or more (Sorry No Open Revolvers at USPSA Nationals) Need feedback on this! If willing to help with the before mentioned problem please PM me, I usually work out of town Monday-Thursday if not Friday too. Thanks and thanks for the interest and input. SAM KEEN

Nice Ride,

Chuck, But the Gamer Moonclip gun is the only 4 inch gun I have the rest are too long. Common problem I have.... Too long a time for that stage.... Too long a wait between matches.... Too long a time for that reload..... Need I say more?

Thanks Frederick, Mike was fun to shoot with but Fred did a very good job too (he shot with us too) both those guys know how to use one of them "anchient" guns Mike will be bad news once he figures out the technical differences between shooting IDPA and USPSA. Now about him "trouncing you".... I saw where you ended up at the IDPA Nationals February is out for me, going to Florida to shoot the FLORIDA OPEN, that will be my "trip" for that month. Going to the Louisiana IDPA state match in March, it will be at Jerry Miculeck range in Shreveport, great range, even better HOST. Don't know if shooting the wheel gun, moonclip holders are illeagal for new rules, not intending to buy more equipment, if they go by the new rules I will shoot SSP with my Matell toy as I have all legal equipment for that. SAM And Bubber, I'm sure you will return the favor sometime

Well I made the 7 hr trip to Ft. Smith Arkansas this weekend to shoot their anual "revolver friendly" match they shoot every January. Temps at first shot were in the high 20s with a 15-20 mph steady wind with stronger gusts. Clay Binion is the USPSA match Director for this year at Old Fort and he put on a really good 6 stage match, it was as he said.... Revolver "Freindly" but not easy though. I got to shoot with most of the local guys that I already new as "Bottom feeder" shooters and they actually held their own quite well, MY Compliments to you guys. I did get to meet "Bubber" and I have to say it was my pleasure he is nicer to talk with face to face than screen to screen. I got to shoot with Mike Luttrell from Arkansas, Mike is starting to shoot more USPSA and has shot IDPA Mostly in the past, He shoots very good, accurate is an understatement (He dropped 7 points for the entire match) and is smooth as water just needs to figure out how to use the correct hand( he is left handed ). For those of you close enough to shoot this match, it is not revolver only just revolver "friendly" all divisions are welcome but they emphasize revolvers for this match. As with all the other matches I have been to at the "OLD FORT GUNCLUB" it was well thought out, well organized and fun to shoot I recomend to anyone to go shoot with Clay and the crew if they have a chance. Don't have a clue who ended up where but that doesn't really matter as I fully enjoyed myself and even better got to meet more BE.COM forum members whom I have not met one yet that was not "good folk" Hopalong.

Thanks for the info John. For the folks in Alabama, that is too bad. The Alabama Match was a good match well liked and always plenty of shooting, I understand where John is coming from as well as anyone else who has had much to do with an organized event. Hope things get better over there and some help steps up to the plate and take their turn to bat, With IDPA going through their rule changes and more interest in the shooting sports due to a couple of good shows on TV ( Shooting Gallery, USA Shooting) we have a chance to increase the participation in USPSA and Clubs going down like theirs is not good at all. Good Luck F.O.P Range and Dixie Shooters. SAM KEEN