Cd662

Obviously I wasn't there but if the shooter put the pistol down in a safe direction, left, and it fell off the curved surface of the 55 gallon drum and rotated as a result of that, that is shenanigans. I can't believe there are places that run 3 gun matches, they charge entry fee, they go through the trouble of building stages and recruiting staff members, and no one has the foresight to have a proper place to ground firearms. Failing to do this earns a DQ? I suspect you are heavily involved in a certain action pistol format that enjoys that verbiage. Obviously if someone throws their crap down and it doesn't go into the box/barrel/whatever and rotates, that's their fault for trying to save an umpteenth of a second and the DQ is justified. If the MD's story is true, it confirms the amazing aspect of the situation.

There's a guy in this neck of the woods that works for Smith and Wesson, he mentioned that the cylinder stop should be replaced every 1,000 cylinder revolutions or something like that (dry fire clicks and actual shots fired). That's a lot of replacing. Don't the cylinder stops require a bit of fitting, or are they mostly drop in? I have a replacement but I've never had a gun that needed it.

Respectfully, I hear this argument a lot. The friend's wife is so physically weak that she can't rack the slide on a Glock, but she's expected to be able to manage a double action pull? Some of the trigger pulls on factory guns are pretty insane, double digits at least.

polymer, once you go down that road, you have to do it for every single gun in every single division in USPSA. You'd have to make some sort of points handicap system for any gun that wasn't perceived to be "as good" as another, which is largely subjective. I want as little subjective ruling about what is and isn't fair in USPSA as possible, there's already another game that does that. Did anyone consider that the match participation is proportionate to the amount of active shooters? There are way more active Open, Limited, and Production shooters than Revolver or Single Stack, or L10 in states where the ammo capacity constraint isn't an issue. There are way more Open, Limited, and Production shooters signed up at major matches than Single Stack / L10 / Revolver shooters, with the exception of nationals or themed matches...

I don't know why we're still talking about this but one more time, I don't understand this whole "I can't shoot USPSA now because it's too much of a gear race" argument. It always was a gear race. If you wanted to be good, you needed a 625, a nice one. Can anyone name any other shooting discipline where there are a 625s floating around? I mean, what else is that gun good for? It's not really a gun appropriate for hunting, it's generally too big for carry, it's mostly for people that want to shoot 45 for fun out of a revolver or for use in gun games, specifically, IDPA Enhanced Service Revolver and USPSA. You could shoot your minor 6 shot gun with speedloaders or Bianchi speed strips or whatever and you weren't going to be compettive. Yes, I read the story about the guy that made A Class with speedloaders, good for him, but if it was a viable option, there'd be more people doing it. So now you have the goofy 6 shot Smith and Wesson revolver replaced by the 8 shot one. You still need moonclips and holders and an N-Frame holster, a decent action job, and a belt. Someone tell me what really changed here? "Like others and I have said before, if you actually want more people in revolver division then cater it to 6 shot .357 magnum/.38 special with speedloaders which are far more widespread than 625's, 610's, or 627's" Why is the ICORE Classic division the LEAST POPULAR division at major every major ICORE match last year? 6 shot K and L frames, Taurus guns, and Rugers chambered in 357 Magnum or 38 Special are pretty commonplace, but people aren't taking them out and trying action pistol with them. It's not because there isn't a place for them to shoot, it's just that those people aren't doing it to begin with. Part of it is the technology itself. Look how many relatively new shooters with say, Glocks, get into shooting and start looking at tactical videos? There's no lack of IDPA Stock Service Pistol or USPSA Production guys with kydex holsters showing up. Glocks are popular. Revolvers are not as popular. I'd love to see a 6 shot division, I think of revolvers as 6 shot guns, but the Revo division was already dead so I didn't really care what they tried. I've talked to people that are shooting USPSA this year in revolver who were not last year, and they are excited to bust out their 627s.

Hey folks, I have a PACT Timer, I think it's one of the club models. I did the factory reset as per the instructions (yank the battery while the timer is still powered on, give a few seconds for the memory to clear, and then reinstall) and messed around a bit. Even when its on instant, when I go to review the shots, they start at funky numbers. For instance, I just started the timer and tapped on it hard 8 times, it recorded 8 shots. When I hit review, it comes up with: 1. 879.9 2: 880:0 3. 883.2 4: 883.40 and so on and so forth until the 8th shot is reached. Before, it was also randomly adding shots the moment it started, without anything touching the timer. Any ideas?

Moses PTC, define practical pistol shooting. There is no definition, I hear this argument all the time. I don't think spending 500 bucks and shooting at police silouette targets in a "tactical" training class is practical shooting. I don't even think all Simunitions training is practical shooting. That's my opinion and its going to differ from yours, and IDPA HQ's, and USPSA HQ's.

Red Ryder - Yes, if the burn characteristics of the powder are compromised. You can only go down so far before getting inconsistent ignition. The OP's drastic variations in velocity is a clue.

It depends on what kind of reload you're doing. There's a few speedloader methods. While I hate the IDPA Tactical Journal, Massad Ayoob did write a fair article discussing the differences. I'm pretty sure Josh isn't holding the cylinder open. I use a switch hand method because a legit guy in the area has that reload. I tried Josh's and it doesn't work. I tried a moonclip style reload which is fast but not consistent. Maybe I'll post a video of it for you, my average is about 2.5 seconds on a reload. Josh smokes me in terms of consistency.

"Agreed, I'll be bringing both, assuming they do not make a stink about changing your declared power factor last minute. For the top guys who have no problem shooting all A's all the time, I imagine the 8 minor will be a no brainer, for us mere mortals who arent quite there yet..... will need all the extra points I can. I'll be sending my entry form in as 6 shot major." Declare major if you aren't sure. If you decide to shoot your 8 shot, you'll be checked to make sure you make minor power factor since all 8 shots are minor PF scoring. I was listed as major power factor at Area 7 and I intentionally shot minor, they took note at the chrono that I did not make major, no harm no foul.

"I've thought about shooting classic occasionally. Are round nose bullets as important as it is with moons? I've not found a true round nose bullet in .44. " Yes, it helps a lot, but you can still pull off some fast reloads with other bullet profiles. The rounder and pointier, the more wiggle room you have. I've even pulled off some pretty decent reloads with double end wadcutters, but the reload has to be spot on.

"Trust me, there are plenty of people who are classified above their ability in Revolver Division, so you'll fit right in. The HHFs they have put in place for Revo vary widely across the different generations of classifers. It really doesn't matter for Revo Division what your class is--at least not until we have enough people playing to actually have real competition at the different class levels--but it can certainly affect your competitive opportunities in the other divisions if you grandbag in Revo (whether intentionally or otherwise)." Quoted for truth. A lot of Lvl 2 and higher matches don't even get enough revolver shooters to recognize the division, so if the two or three guys that show up are all Bs instead of Cs, or Masters instead of A, what's the big deal? Like Carmoney mentioned, it'd only be an issue if you didn't want another classification to go up, but with such a small attendance it technically shouldn't even matter if you show up and shoot unclassified. Isn't JJ Racaza unclassified in Production? That was at Area 7, where strange things apparently happen, like a C class guy shooting minor coming in 2nd Overall for Single Stack at 95%.

Ideally, bring both guns with you.

Rounds are going to go all over the place, there is no way around it. Practice with fired, dirty brass in the gun to simulate an actual extraction. Personally, I go a little too hard on my extraction rod but if you develop too weak of a stroke you won't clear your cases. There is no moonclip to help pull empty cases away and even one case not clearing the cylinder (because it's dirty, or has a small crack at the neck, or because you moved the gun upwards to fast, or whatever) is enough to piss in your cornflakes. If you try to do two dry-reloads in row, the second rep will not be realistic because the dummy rounds already in the gun will easily fall out. Personally, I do two back to back reps. I put cases in the gun, I run the drill I'm doing and do my reload, then I stuff the spent cases back in and repeat. I pick everything up, reload my speedloaders, and repeat. I think you get better training time if you incorporate the reload into something else. There's too much time spent in between reps otherwise. Make sure you don't angle the gun back up too quickly. Being sloppy with the motion can cause the extractor star to slip over a case head, and this is instant death. You have to hold the extractor rod back and ease the case out with your finger nails. The case is usually shoved in there pretty good. This eats up 5 - 10 seconds or more whenever it happens.

No plans to shoot USPSA major matches, I don't have equipment to play.

8 3/8 is pretty dope, do you have a custom holster for that?

I know a guy that works at Smith and he's trying to find an answer for me. Obviously if I put fresh barrels on my gats, the increase in accuracy will really up my game. ...but for reals, who knows how long the run will be? It would be neat to have replacement barrels if they fit. I could go shoot 110 grain 357 magnums, split a forcing cone, post about it on the Smith-Wesson forums, make people cry, and then be tack-driving Alphas a few days later.

Smith and Wesson has re-released the Model 66. Do any of you technical people know if the new production barrels would fit on older frames, or is it a proprietary thing that only fits the new production stuff?

Not a pressing question, but I thought it was cool. I recently found a piece of brass (I set it aside but then it got mixed up with other brass) where the headstamp had a company name and then it said "BLANK" underneath it. I wasn't sure if this was brass for a blank, but don't real blanks have different cases? This case was just like a normal 38 Special case with a regular primer pocket.

986 looks like a 6 shooter? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQOf0V62M3Y Can we assume it's an L Frame? Ninja edit, the guns are on the official Smith webpage. 986, 7 shot, suggested retail price: 1149.00 929, 8 shot, suggested retail price: 1189.00

Why would you want to?

Last post by me, you win I guess. I'm not regged at Doodie, but it's an amusing place. I didn't know there was a thread there about this. "I'm a data driven person, if you couldn't tell, so I'd like to see this data please. Or maybe this is unsubstantiated opinion, which means one can say anything and not have any data." Sure, I'll just start interviewing every IDPA shooter in the world that participates in sanctioned matches and establish criteria to isolate geographic areas where the performance base is not as good as other geographic areas. Then I'll have to pinpoint the shooters who had match bumps. Then I'd have to establish some sort of base performance model for competitors in the same division. It'll take me 20 years and a lot of money to complete, PM me an address to send the consultation bill to. You are correct, a very small sample size can yield goofy results. What I do see, in practical observation, of which there is no data because I can't connect my brain to a computer like in the Matrix, is that a ton of people come out to IDPA Sanctioned matches and they're surprisingly not the same people that are regulars at club matches. For example, up here in the Northeast, some people make it a point to shoot the S&W Indoor Nationals but they don't shoot any other sanctioned matches. They know they aren't going to be competitive and they don't care. Within the IDPA match bump system, the mere participation of these individuals has an immediate effect on other people in the division. The same CANNOT be said for USPSA, or ICORE, although I don't know about Bullseye, PPC, Silouette, Bianchi, etc. One thing I do like about the new IDPA is the inclusion of standards-style stages to certain tier matches. It's not a classifier, but it's a step in the right direction.

I can read clearly, thank you for your observation. I'm sure it carried no sarcastic overtones whatsoever. I'm not advocating that the entire IDPA database isn't properly classified, I don't know where you got that. I think there are a lot of people that end up as Sharpshooters or Experts and they don't belong there, and their attendance to sanctioned matches subsequently effects other people getting their match bump. I'm not saying it's a huge thing that must be changed because it doesn't matter to me, personally. It does matter to a lot of people however. I don't think any clasification system is perfect. Someone in a previous example brought up letter grading, so I assumed they were talking about USPSA. The only two action pistol formats I know of that use letter classes are USPSA/IPSC (and I suppose Steel Challenge falls under that) and ICORE. NRA Action Pistol uses a similar set of classes to IDPA. "So, just like in Bones example for IDPA, if the only shooters in the entire USPSA system are the 100 shooters with "D" class skills, there is no 20%. Their score is the 100% mark. They all make Grand Master, because their scores would be the only scores in the classification database. Their scores automatically represent 100%." Sort of. Bones' graph discusses what could (and in my opinion, does) happen at IDPA sanctioned matches, not the classifier. You specifically mentioned the USPSA classifier database and avoiding a discussion about contrived situations so I'll talk about that. Presume the USPSA classification system is virgin and there are 100 freshly admitted shooters. None of them are very good. They all shoot a classifier match and have generally similar hit factors. Even if everyone ends up with a high percentage, the practical result is that as more shooters are added to the database, the classes will spread out. As the compettiors shoot new classifiers, the system stabalizes because the system flags certain classification scores for removal: for example, scores 15% over one's classification (must be reviewed to be input), scores that are remarkably poor due to mental or gear malfunction (see Flagging System points B and C on the USPSA Frequently Asked Questions page) Adding new participants naturally helps stabilize the system over time. At a match, USPSA chooses to promote people if there are enough Grand Masters shooting a given sanctioned match - I don't know the procedure they use for this but I presume there has to be a certain percentage of the overall people in attendance for that division. If you have: 1st place GM: 100% 2nd place GM: 95.7% 3rd Place GM: 95.0% 4th to Infinity Place: 60% If you were a D or a C, you may be promoted. Winning first or second in class and also shooting into the next class up may get you promoted. I'm sure the classification team would also review the classifier scores shot during the match. That's right from the USPSA rulebook. If there was a D class with 100 people at this match and they all post D scores and D percentages, no one is moving out of D. In IDPA, there is no regard to performance, the promotion is purely based on statistics (match attendance and division/class population). Marksman shooters will become Sharpshooters. The mere act of those Sharpshooters entering the next event will bump existing Sharpshooters, regardless of performance, to Expert, and so on and so forth. Now to relate back to the original thread, you do see people that come out "guns blazing" and have a good day at the IDPA classifier and they post into a class where they don't belong. The same could happen at a USPSA classifier match. The primary difference is that the USPSA classification system takes the top scores into account and there is a diversity of shooting challenges represented. The IDPA classifier is mostly shooting targets at close distance with the exception of the barricade stage. Edit for addition: In the case of a virgin classification system, unless all of the fictitious competitors shot IDENTICAL scores on the initial classifier, you would not have all Grand Masters. The percentage scale would be applied accordingly. It's impossible for everyone to be 95+%.

Freeidaho, why are you applying bone's post to USPSA? The thread is about IDPA, and the example he gave is about IDPA. You are reiterating my point. If one hundred D class shooters sign up for a USPSA Level 2 match and there are no Grand Masters and they all shoot 20% scores on the classifiers, they will all remain D class shooters. This is an accurate representation of their abilities. If you have the same one hundred marksman sign up for a sanctioned IDPA match and they all shoot crappy, many of them are going to get bumped solely on the basis of the scoring system. As far as your observation about nationals or the Carolina Cup, bones model was talking about a theoretical sample that was isolated from "the real world". If someone gets a bump to Expert or Master through a local match and they know they don't have the skills to back it up, they probably are not going to make a 1,000 dollar investment to travel to a major event because they know they'll get destroyed. They stay home. That's the entire point here. In the IDPA classification system, people seem to get promoted to unrealistic and inaccurate skill levels before they're ready to compete at that level.

" But that is the same for all classification systems. When someone first makes Expert on the classifier, or "B" on the classifier, or gets bumped, there are a whole range of skills in that new group. Some are just about to bump to the next range, and those will be the winners at matches in their group. " Sort of kind of not really. If we're comparing to USPSA (assuming that's what a B reference is here), you don't get match bumped unless there are enough Grand Masters at the match shooting that particular division. Your classification percentage dictates the bump. If you win 3 state championships in a row as B Class in Open and there aren't any GMs and your classification percentage remains at say, 65%, you aren't getting a bump. If you "grandbag" or happen to just hit it right on classifiers, sure, other people within that class will dominate that person and they'll either HTFU and train and be competitive, or they'll quit, or they'll hide in another division. The big difference is, in IDPA, if someone wants to sandbag and win 1st Place Marksman plaques, they can do it. If someone wants to keep winning B Class 1st Place plaques, they are shooting to win. Part of that effort involves shooting classifier stages as part of the match. They could try to tone that down and sandbag their percentage but in the end, that puts them at risk for not reaching their goal of a class placement. Look at what bones posted, its reality. It's not mind shattering "math". And regarding the classifier, I know folks that never shot actoin pistol before or only shot a few informal matches and they made Expert on the IDPA classifier. People who have never competed before routinely make sharpshooter. There is a problem with this. The major things that mess people up on the IDPA classifier are the one hand only shooting portions and Stage 3; people drop way way way too many points on those 20 yard targets, and older/mobility challenged shooters lose time moving up to the barrel and taking low cover. Even so, these people can tangibly enter the game as Sharpshooters and, in an area where the shooters are not as good, they can be quickly promoted to Expert. This depends entirely on the level of shooters in any given area, as opposed to a percentage system like USPSA that bases itself off a database. In the Northeast, there are some places where there are some pretty solid guys that shoot IDPA. There's another place in the Northeast I shot this year where most people are universally terrible. A lot of the sanctioned matches I shot last year were nothing more than glorified club matches that drew the same people, so this really does play into the graph that bones posted. Finally, there seems to be a much stronger emphasis on class placement in IDPA than in other shooting sports where the overall is more important. IDPA overtly states that it is geared towards a different group of shooters than other games. In order to keep "social shooters" happy, there needs to be some opportunity for people who shoot casually to win something. I think there is less incentive to want to sandbag on anything if a lower class is generally seen as undesirable. Personally, I cringe when I admit my USPSA/ICORE classifier percentages. It's a bad thing, and I want it gone.